New 06.15hrs Cork to Dublin non-stop Express service begins Mon 25th May

[Ben]

New 06.15hrs Cork to Dublin non-stop Express service begins Mon 25th May

 

No First Class ?

 

21 May 2015

 

The new service will have a journey time of 2 hours 15 minutes, arriving in Dublin Heuston at 08.30hrs. Minor changes to some other services also.

 

We are delighted to introduce a new non-stop express service daily (Monday to Friday):

•06.15hrs from Cork’s Kent Station to Dublin Heuston, with a journey time of 2 hours 15 minutes, arriving in Heuston Station at 08.30hrs.

 

The new service operates from Monday 25th May onwards, and is being introduced following the approval of the National Transport Authority.

 

The new express service is being introduced following customer research, with a particular demand identified for a faster morning service arriving in Dublin at 08.30hrs, to facilitate business meeting needs.

 

This will be the only non-stop service of its type on our national network, and will enable customers to maximise the benefits of travelling with Iarnród Éireann – allowing productive use of time and offering free wifi, charge points for phones at every seat – while giving our best journey time.

 

We intend for this to be the beginning of a series of continuing journey time improvements, including network upgrades to deliver further speed enhancements on all our services, to ensure the train is the most competitive option for customers

 

As part of the introduction of the new 06.15hrs Cork to Dublin Express service, the following changes will also be implemented, following the approval of the National Transport Authority:

•06.00hrs Cork to Dublin Heuston (Mon-Sat) will now depart at 05.55hrs, and operate 5 to 10 minutes earlier throughout.

•04.55hrs Tralee to Mallow (Mon only) will now depart at 04.50hrs, and operate 5 to 8 minutes earlier throughout.

•05.15hrs Westport to Dublin Heuston will now depart at 05.25hrs, and operate 6 to 10 minutes later throughout.

•08.09hrs Newbridge to Dublin Heuston will now depart at 08.11hrs, and operate 2 minutes later throughout.

•06.55hrs Athlone to Dublin Heuston (Sat only) will now depart at 07.05hrs and operate between 6 and 10 minutes later throughout.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Garfield
Altered text formatting. No need for extra large text.

[Noel]

New 06.15hrs Cork to Dublin non-stop Express service begins Mon 25th May

 

No First Class ?

 

Hi Ben

 

Is there really no business class on this train?

 

If not IE seem to have lost the plot completely. Quicker and cheaper to fly. Intercity without a business service would be a joke.

 

Noel

[hurricanemk1c]

3 ICR booked, so no first class

[Ben]

Is there really no business class on this train?

As said by hurricanemk1c 3 ICR booked, so no first class

The new express service is being introduced following customer research, with a particular demand identified for a faster morning service arriving in Dublin at 08.30hrs, to facilitate business meeting needs.

why have they not booked a first class set .

sounds like some one dose not want this to work.

[hurricanemk1c]

On the contrary - IÉ do want it to work. However, with a fleet of 10x 5ICR, one of which is on Enterprise, one or two are down for attention, leaving a maximum of 8 around for other work. In the evening peak, the 1600 Heuston - Cork, 1625 Heuston - Limerick, 1630 Heuston - Galway, 1705 Heuston - Tralee, 1725 Heuston - Limerick, 1815 Heuston - Westport, 1830 Heuston - Galway and 1835 Heuston - Waterford. . Whilst I do not have the links, that is from observation at Heuston. Total use there is 8 sets, most of them full both in standard and first

 

People moan (not anyone here, just general) that IÉ are 'carting around fresh air' and now that they match capacity with demand people are moaning. As a comparision, a 3 ICR accomodates 190 passengers, compared to 36/268 (first/standard) for a 5 ICR or 44/373 (first/standard) for a Mark 4 rake. Find the extra 110-200 people and the diagrams will change

Edited June 1, 2015 by hurricanemk1c

[Noel]

A key to getting folk off the motorways onto rail for intercity work travel is comfort and service. That means moderately acceptable food&bev onboard, and an environment where one can get work done on a laptop or tablet, which means curtains and power outlets. The lack of curtains make it difficult to work on a laptop. To work one also needs "quiet" which is a major reason folk travel on business fares. To save "time" folks need to be able to eat proper food on an intercity work excursion. IE seem to have abandoned the business traveller who will either travel by motorway or fly. They've got all the new rolling stock, all they need is to tweak a few things to get more business traffic:

 

• Curtains or darkly tinted windows
  
• Larger more comfortable seats
  
• Decent hot food served at your seat (i.e. not reheated junk food served in cardboard bags/boxes)
  
• Link Heuston to Connolly/Dart network, or build new intercity hub station on M50 rim (i.e. avoids rush hour roads)
  

 

All four are now sadly lacking on Dublin/Cork mk4 sets and especially on the 22k.

[jhb171achill]

Right across the network, there's another issue - the extreme heat inside ICR and also Mk 4 carriages. The air is stale, the toilets stink, because no fresh air gets in. Why can't the heat be turned down inside them? Typically (and I'm a very regular traveller on Cork, Tralee and Galway services), the inside temperatures must be over 25 degrees at least.

[hurricanemk1c]

• Curtains or darkly tinted windows
  
• Larger more comfortable seats
  
• Decent hot food served at your seat (i.e. not reheated junk food served in cardboard bags/boxes)
  
• Link Heuston to Connolly/Dart network, or build new intercity hub station on M50 rim (i.e. avoids rush hour roads)
  

 

So, are you suggesting a small sub-fleet on an already streched fleet just to accomodate them, and for one or two runs a day? Good luck with getting a solid business case for that!

 

• Curtains are a pain to install, keep clean and generally keep up, hence why they are only ever in first class. Then when a curtained set turns up on other diagrams, people begin to wonder 'why do I get x train when I can get the same on y train?'. Tinted windows cost more as well, due to the additional processes required. Also - Bigger seats = less seats = higher price per passenger. Higher Price (especially with a 'normal' train 20 mins before) = Lower Demand. Good old economics
  
• After many, many hours at 0645-0900 and then on the return anywhere between 1600-2000 (and sometimes on the 2210 Heuston - Portlaoise) on ICR's, can't find the seats that bad. True, not as good as the Mark 3 seats but they no longer pass EU safety regulations. An informed source quotes £800,000 for a new rail-compliant seat. Find the money and a good, solid business case and the seat will follow - and maybe it will be comfortable! Concorde worked perfectly for 20-25 years - and the seats weren't that comfortable!
  
• Can't comment on food as I don't eat anything on-board, but I think Iarnród Éireann (through Rail Gourmet) know exactly what comes through the trolley till and what comes through a dedicated buffet service. I think I know which wins, and people vote with their wallets.
  
• A new Intercity station on the M50? That [M50] is already packed out and any little thing makes the whole system fall over. Same with the proposed Phoenix Park Tunnel idea - one delay on the Connolly side or Heuston side and chaos. Building a station by the M50 would just increase costs and pain for people travelling
  
• 
  

 

I've seen many, many people working on a train without curtains (myself included) on a variety of devices.

 

jhb171achill:

Right across the network, there's another issue - the extreme heat inside ICR and also Mk 4 carriages. The air is stale, the toilets stink, because no fresh air gets in. Why can't the heat be turned down inside them? Typically (and I'm a very regular traveller on Cork, Tralee and Galway services), the inside temperatures must be over 25 degrees at least.

 

Having just finished commuting on ICR's from Portlaoise to Heuston (something in the region of 11,000 miles since September) at all times from 0645 to 2330 at Portlaoise, heat never been a problem for me, and I hate high temperatures. If you have a problem, have you complained with all the relevant details? The average temperature I have seen is about 18-20 degrees. I do know of services that were terminated due to high interior temperatures and failed HVAC sets, so complain if you have a problem. In fact, the information stickers on the ICR's, if you had noticed, mention HVAC as a specific clause (see - http://www.thewandererphotos.com/2014Photos/November-2014/i-tKzr3cp)

 

So we are back to the start - how to provide a non-stop trip from Cork to Heuston at minimum cost to attract passengers and keep within the fleet capabilities and crew capabilities. Personally, I think Iarnród Éireann have done themselves proud (despite NTA worries). Instead of complaining at every decision made by Iarnród Éireann, why not praise one or two? Unfortunately, it's not just a case of going down to the local shop to get a few things and bolting it on. For example, the provision of curtains would have to go through an EU tender, review, selection and then fitting. Six months minimum, regardless of whether it is here or Germany.

 

Sum total - find the money and the product could follow.

 

As I said before - the market decides. Early days yet, don't forget, with this being week 2 (and Tuesday at that). And what's not been discussed is knock-on effects. Whilst the 0615 is on-time / early at Heuston, it's been +5 at Portarlington all last week, with the result that the 0525 Westport - Heuston (retimed +5 at Heuston) is another 5 down at Heuston - not happy people!

 

As always, just my opinions!!!

[GSR 800]

I think Irish rail have sort of rushed this into service. Yes I think it is a good idea and have thought it through but only in the short term,to get it into service ASAP but have not thought about comfort. If they had left it another year and saved up so they would have enough to slightly modify the mk4s to meet high standards. Non stop expresses are usually the premier route with comfort reliability and a sense of safety, which I think Irish rail could do if they really wanted to. Also 2hrs 15? Weren't the 800s recorded doing that? Surely even with the speed restrictions we could bring it down to 2hrs? Although I am not sure as I am not a civil engineer

[Noel]

I hear what you are saying alright. My point is they have clearly abandoned the smaller segment for business service.

 

Credit where credit is due. Standing back, overall the replacement of the fleet seemed impressive, despite the mk3s being put out to grass perhaps a decade earlier than their shelf life had they been overhauled like UK stock had. It is obvious that turnaround time and costs with ICRs is a no brainer, less man power, less station track work needed, less points to maintain, less time, etc. However one wonders if the 'transport21' spending spree would have been better spent on the actual network infrastructure rather than the hasty migration from loco hauled mk3 rolling stock to ICRs. I appreciate some were in poor order but could that be down to the overhaul cycle, which the UK kept up with on their mk3 fleets? The online self service ticketing and allocated seating works really well. Perhaps its just my age, but the seats on the 22k seem back killers after more than 90 minutes.

 

One problem remains with intercity transport - access to Heuston by road at rush hour which afflicts many living on the suburban ring. By the time some folk drive into Heuston at rush hour and park (because they can't get their by rail) they would already be half way to Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford by motorway. It seems daft that the door2door time by rail takes significantly longer than by road from the suburbs. Yes it saves fatigue, especially up and down in the same day, and yes one can get some work done on the train unlike the car. Much as rail killed off the canals, now the motorways seem to be stifling intercity rail.

 

Anyway I hope this new express service is a success and regains some market share from the motorways.

[hurricanemk1c]

Also 2hrs 15? Weren't the 800s recorded doing that? Surely even with the speed restrictions we could bring it down to 2hrs? Although I am not sure as I am not a civil engineer

 

Subject to much debate - but if they were every recorded doing that (and personally don't believe they ever did), it certaintly wasn't in regular passenger service. 2 hours 15 (2 hours 12 WTT time) is very impressive. It is about the minimum time at the moment, hence the ballast cleaning going on. Better ballast bed can bring higher speeds. Average speed of 73.4 mph start to stop

[GSR 800]

And yet on the other side of the channel they have trains doing 100 average regularly? I get the Irish system is not built for that but it just seems daft that we have not been brought up to speed the way we should have. Yes Noel as you said we could have got a bit more from the mk3s and I think an entire DMU fleet idea(which seems to be what's happening ) is daft. Also Irish rail could still have a large freight service if they were willing to keep to a large schedule. CIEs best few years were the 80s and 90s good passenger and freight services and a seemingly modern look on things.

[jhb171achill]

Irish railways, being broader gauge, and originally extremely well engineered, are built, as such, very much as suitable for high speed as British ones. Lack of high speed is largely due to (a) lack of money and (b) management's perception that the public will settle for lower speeds.

[Junctionmad]

It's clear that IE is driven by the strange ecomonics of public subsidised entities. Very little real " business case " logic actually exits.

 

Hence decision based solely on " ring fenced " operating costs are actually non- sensical. Ie does not actually benefit from enhanced service which result in transfers to rail, it benefits by remaining within the financial parameters associated with its subsidies.

 

To suggest the mk3 fleet was scrapped over seats is nonsense given the life expectantly of the mk3 in the UK , which is presumably subject to the same EU rules as IE is. iE is driven by cost reduction over service provision and is engaged in cutting legs from a cow to save feed costs.

 

I agree with noël. To lure business passengers you need to provide facilities aligned to that groups needs , in that you are directly competing with modern cars , air conditioning , comfort , entertainment etc and modern best in class motorways, with enhanced service stops etc.

 

I was involved with sections of the CTC upgrade I know partly how cie thinks. It's an unavoidable function of its lifeline.

 

By the way chasing reductions in journey time is foolish. No train ( in Ireland ) can beat a modern car and motorway point to point times and point to point times are ALL that matters, not the time spent on a train.

 

In that regard. Noel is correct centre city main stations were fine for dublin of the 19th century , when few people commuted anywhere and the centre city was the destination of business men and others. Today Dublin is greatly dispersed and I agree with the idea of an m50 station. The extra traffic would be a pimple on the m50 car traffic.

 

It's clear that IE is adopting a Ryanair style of operation , strangely ryanair is beginning to abandon its own original strategy ( if it's cheap people will put up with anything ) having travelled recently on both 22k and 29k the service is basic, uncomfortable compared with the best of the past

 

I personally think ie should have retained some of the flexibility loco hauled coaching stock provided, in additional to selective railcar deployment. In this logic, this is similar to uk and European rail usage patterns.

 

The Milne report strongly argued against the destruction of rail assets and infrastructure. That message to this day goes unheard. In the end , accountants will recommend that cutting all four legs of the cows makes it more financially efficient, of course neglecting to understand that such an undertaking kills the cow and removes all milk production. But of course a zero cost cow is at it's very efficient.

 

( rule 0: never let an accountant run a business)

 

Given the signalling issue, the approach constraints ,pathing, etc. I applaud IE can actually implement such expresses. But I fear it's a form of PR. Stunt. The passenger lift will be minimal and the resource consumption is significant.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

And yet on the other side of the channel they have trains doing 100 average regularly? I get the Irish system is not built for that but it just seems daft that we have not been brought up to speed the way we should have. Yes Noel as you said we could have got a bit more from the mk3s and I think an entire DMU fleet idea(which seems to be what's happening ) is daft. Also Irish rail could still have a large freight service if they were willing to keep to a large schedule. CIEs best few years were the 80s and 90s good passenger and freight services and a seemingly modern look on things.

 

Irish railways were built predominantly to move agricultural produce to the uk. ( no more then why the royal and grand were built ) in that regard. Line Speed was a secondary concern .

 

Rail freight was always doomed in modern Ireland, firstly distance economics dont apply, secondly freight doesn't vote. When you see IE setting " track access" at over 9 euros. , while in the uk they are whinging at £ 1.50 you see that Ie is loading the rail freight charges

 

Ie won't get a penny for rsil freight , hence it will never have one again , the 80s and early 90s were merely the death throws of the " new " early 70s freight strategy, that ultimately lost cie millions.

[Warbonnet]

So, are you suggesting a small sub-fleet on an already streched fleet just to accomodate them, and for one or two runs a day? Good luck with getting a solid business case for that!

 

• Curtains are a pain to install, keep clean and generally keep up, hence why they are only ever in first class. Then when a curtained set turns up on other diagrams, people begin to wonder 'why do I get x train when I can get the same on y train?'. Tinted windows cost more as well, due to the additional processes required. Also - Bigger seats = less seats = higher price per passenger. Higher Price (especially with a 'normal' train 20 mins before) = Lower Demand. Good old economics
  
• After many, many hours at 0645-0900 and then on the return anywhere between 1600-2000 (and sometimes on the 2210 Heuston - Portlaoise) on ICR's, can't find the seats that bad. True, not as good as the Mark 3 seats but they no longer pass EU safety regulations. An informed source quotes £800,000 for a new rail-compliant seat. Find the money and a good, solid business case and the seat will follow - and maybe it will be comfortable! Concorde worked perfectly for 20-25 years - and the seats weren't that comfortable!
  
• Can't comment on food as I don't eat anything on-board, but I think Iarnród Éireann (through Rail Gourmet) know exactly what comes through the trolley till and what comes through a dedicated buffet service. I think I know which wins, and people vote with their wallets.
  
• A new Intercity station on the M50? That [M50] is already packed out and any little thing makes the whole system fall over. Same with the proposed Phoenix Park Tunnel idea - one delay on the Connolly side or Heuston side and chaos. Building a station by the M50 would just increase costs and pain for people travelling
  
• 
  

 

I've seen many, many people working on a train without curtains (myself included) on a variety of devices.

 

jhb171achill:

 

 

Having just finished commuting on ICR's from Portlaoise to Heuston (something in the region of 11,000 miles since September) at all times from 0645 to 2330 at Portlaoise, heat never been a problem for me, and I hate high temperatures. If you have a problem, have you complained with all the relevant details? The average temperature I have seen is about 18-20 degrees. I do know of services that were terminated due to high interior temperatures and failed HVAC sets, so complain if you have a problem. In fact, the information stickers on the ICR's, if you had noticed, mention HVAC as a specific clause (see - http://www.thewandererphotos.com/2014Photos/November-2014/i-tKzr3cp)

 

So we are back to the start - how to provide a non-stop trip from Cork to Heuston at minimum cost to attract passengers and keep within the fleet capabilities and crew capabilities. Personally, I think Iarnród Éireann have done themselves proud (despite NTA worries). Instead of complaining at every decision made by Iarnród Éireann, why not praise one or two? Unfortunately, it's not just a case of going down to the local shop to get a few things and bolting it on. For example, the provision of curtains would have to go through an EU tender, review, selection and then fitting. Six months minimum, regardless of whether it is here or Germany.

 

Sum total - find the money and the product could follow.

 

As I said before - the market decides. Early days yet, don't forget, with this being week 2 (and Tuesday at that). And what's not been discussed is knock-on effects. Whilst the 0615 is on-time / early at Heuston, it's been +5 at Portarlington all last week, with the result that the 0525 Westport - Heuston (retimed +5 at Heuston) is another 5 down at Heuston - not happy people!

 

As always, just my opinions!!!

 

An opinion that represents one of the most rational and well thought out point of view that I've read in a long time. Well done that man!

[Junctionmad]

Irish railways, being broader gauge, and originally extremely well engineered, are built, as such, very much as suitable for high speed as British ones. Lack of high speed is largely due to (a) lack of money and (b) management's perception that the public will settle for lower speeds.

 

I find that hard to accept. The vast majority of irish lines were built late in the rail expansion era, and private money was much harder to find. Even though irish rsilways paid early dividends due to lower costs, these were rapidly ended by railways lack of financial performance in Ireland.

 

High speed works over long distances, where significant reductions in journey times can result. This can be seen in say London to edinburgh , which has reduced journey tines on the ECMl to 4 hours.

 

Ireland has no such distances or such large centres of population. Reducing Dublin cork tines by 5 or 10 minutes is meaningless in the context of overall point to point journey tine.

 

Better the whole network was capable of 75 mph , then a few sections capable of 100 mph. Reliability and predictability are more important then simply journey times.

[Mayner]

CIEs best few years were the 80s and 90s good passenger and freight services and a seemingly modern look on things.

 

I think the idea of CIE/IE ever having a golden age is something of a contradiction.

 

While the railways in the 80s & 90s were interesting from a railfans point of view, the reality was a rail system that was approaching a state of collapse with poor services with extended journey times due to inadequate investment, poor staff morale, deferred track and infrastructure maintenance.

 

The system appears to be in a lot better shape than it was in the 80s & 90s whether the Government should continue to subsidise rail is a difficult political question.

 

Personally I think 1st Class rail travel is something of a red-herring; the 06:15Cork-Dublin is unlikely to be overcrowded with plebs, more seriously as an employer I would be asking serious questions why I am paying an employees to spend most of the day travelling rather than using video or tele conferencing for an important meeting.

[Junctionmad]

An opinion that represents one of the most rational and well thought out point of view that I've read in a long time. Well done that man!

 

 

Let's break down such logic

 

The cheaper seats , and no curtains economic argument.

 

Given that capital costs are " magicked " out of the air , by direct exchequer subvention, of course it makes no sense to incur additional operating costs despite whatever passenger benefits. ( since such costs are not capital )

 

Air travel is run for business class. , the economy passengers are along for the ride

 

Since ie cannot be profitable by fares , there exists no advantage to getting more fare revenue from lower numbers of passages paying higher fares. Hence the perverted business logic that removes " niceties " and rewards converting everything to dart standard. ( there is of course political kudos by increasing passenger numbers by whatever means )

 

Not to mention that mk3 city gold was an outstanding success

 

The lack of curtains and food has nothing to do with ecomonics and all to do with standardisation, lack of coaching stock flexibility and " cost -saving "

Comfort

 

Having travelled on mk2s mk3s , Italian compartment trains, I confirm all are more comfortable and quieter then 22ks.

 

Again ie isn't interested in comfort , it simply is sawing legs from the cow to save costs. The inevitable will happen

 

Good foods attracts high paying passengers , see eithad etc. ever travelled on Eurostar etc.

 

M50 Station

 

That's makes a lot more sense then dragging car drivers wishing to take inter city trains into the centre of a city , with few decent roads and expensive car parking.

 

 

The sad thing , is that irish railways are in their death knell. Outside of commuter orientated services, the rest is utterly unjustified financially. Unless we see a massive attitude change in the irish government , rail will continue to be strangled slowly to death both inside and outside cie

 

just my opinions

Edited June 2, 2015 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

Hurricane Mk 1 - yes, I did indeed make representations, let us say, to the relevant areas within IE.

 

Junctionmad - the later branch lines were certainly not built with speed in mind - but the main surviving routes are the original ones from way before that, which were very well engineered. There is no reason, given the right economics, politics and demand, timetabling and organisation; in other words, hypothetically, why (say) Dublin - Cork, Dublin - Galway and Dublin - Belfast should not be high speed.

 

Other comments relate to competition with the car; this is quite correct. For thew railway to compete with road times, the investment needed would be of TGV proportions. If ever the Irish population rises to 20 million, and oil reserves twice that of Saudi are found in Co. Tipperary, that's a possibility; not otherwise.

[Junctionmad]

I think the idea of CIE/IE ever having a golden age is something of a contradiction.

 

While the railways in the 80s & 90s were interesting from a railfans point of view, the reality was a rail system that was approaching a state of collapse with poor services with extended journey times due to inadequate investment, poor staff morale, deferred track and infrastructure maintenance.

 

The system appears to be in a lot better shape than it was in the 80s & 90s whether the Government should continue to subsidise rail is a difficult political question.

 

Personally I think 1st Class rail travel is something of a red-herring; the 06:15Cork-Dublin is unlikely to be overcrowded with plebs, more seriously as an employer I would be asking serious questions why I am paying an employees to spend most of the day travelling rather than using video or tele conferencing for an important meeting.

 

I agree , the 80s was IR failing , unfortunately so was the 40 s , 50 s , 60 s , the interwar years etc.

 

As for meetings, humans are at best face to face , no amount of video conferencing will replace " looking them In The eye " , airlines business class depends on it.

[GSR 800]

Also I think Irish rail could advertise a bit better. Two people asleep in uncomfortable looking seats and having an imaginary conversation doesn't make me want to board a train. I never said golden age but it was a time when there were fairly new locos and they could still just by the skin on their teeth compete with road transport up until the late 80s when the main roads were a full working service. Certainly their were a lot that could be improved but a lot still has to be done. That's all for now,

[Noel]

I could be wrong but I suspect aside from population size economics Ireland is too small geographically for a TGV style service to make sense. The distances are just too short. Tis but a small island after all, but a lovely little one.

 

PS: The Dub-Cork City Gold service of the 1980s was always packed and a success - a top class service.

[Warbonnet]

Let's break down such logic

 

The cheaper seats , and no curtains economic argument.

 

Given that capital costs are " magicked " out of the air , by direct exchequer subvention, of course it makes no sense to incur additional operating costs despite whatever passenger benefits. ( since such costs are not capital )

 

Air travel is run for business class. , the economy passengers are along for the ride

 

Since ie cannot be profitable by fares , there exists no advantage to getting more fare revenue from lower numbers of passages paying higher fares. Hence the perverted business logic that removes " niceties " and rewards converting everything to dart standard.

 

Not to mention that mk3 city gold was an outstanding success

 

The lack of curtains and food has nothing to do with ecomonics and all to do with standardisation, lack of coaching stock flexibility and " cost -saving "

Comfort

 

Having travelled on mk2s mk3s , Italian compartment trains, I confirm all are more comfortable and quieter then 22ks.

 

Again ie isn't interested in comfort , it simply is sawing legs from the cow to save costs. The inevitable will happen

 

Good foods attracts high paying passengers , see eithad etc. ever travelled on Eurostar etc.

 

M50 Station

 

That's makes a lot more sense then dragging car drivers wishing to take inter city trains into the centre of a city , with few decent roads and expensive car parking.

 

 

The sad thing , is that irish railways are in their death knell. Outside of commuter orientated services, the rest is utterly unjustified financially. Unless we see a massive attitude change in the irish government , rail will continue to be strangled slowly to death both inside and outside cie

 

just my opinions

 

Your arguments like many of your posts, are a bit all over the place.

 

"Air travel run for business class?" Never noticed any class division on Ryanair on routes to the sun, must've missed that.

 

I fail to see why curtains are the be all and end all for business class train travel. I have used laptops on ICRs, with a handy plug socket at every seat (something missing on older coaching stock) without the need for a curtain.

 

Comfort, the Mark IIIs were very good but were tired. Economic decision to get new trains while the money is there over expensive refurbishment made sense (this is where Kieran's point about new seats came into it that you happily dismissed to suit your agenda once again). Coaching stock needed shunting, 201s and 071s thirsty. mark IIs clapped out. I personally find the ICRs very good. Noisier? Of course, but it's not that noticeable to me and it hasn't affected passenger numbers.

 

Most railway companies across the water and beyond have stripped back their catering as much as possible in recent years, including Virgin and my once beloved GNER and its successors. Good food on trains is like that on planes, a thing of the past.

 

The M50 station idea is surreal to me. If you can show me a successful railway station on a motorway I will gladly read up on it. Heustons big problem is that it's too far outside the city centre. So why build something further away that's even more inconvenient? If I was a person travelling to Dublin city centre on business and was turfed out in cherry orchard I'd be livid. The opening of the Phoenix park tunnel next year to southern services to grand canal dock will be fantastic and I'd be happy to bet that it will increase travel numbers on IE.

 

If you want people to switch from cars to the train for such journies it needs to be much faster, affordable and convenient than driving. Hence the calls for better line speeds and the calling at more city centre based stations. This in turn can get many people out of anti social, gas guzzling nonsensical vehicles unsuited to the city centre. IE is also more affordable than British train travel under the private model.

 

Outside profitable commuter and the more established intercity routes, the idea is to provide public service for the good of the citizens of the country. Will these lines make money? No, but that's not necessarily the point

 

Just my two cents.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Warbonnet

[DiveController]

I could be wrong but I suspect aside from population size economics Ireland is too small geographically for a TGV style service to make sense. The distances are just too short. Tis but a small island after all, but a lovely little one.

 

PS: The Dub-Cork City Gold service of the 1980s was always packed and a success - a top class service.

 

I do not think the geography is the problem, London-Paris approx 213 miles. Belfast-Cork approx 213 miles, no chunnel required, although the population density is obviously an impediment

[Noel]

I do not think the geography is the problem, London-Paris approx 213 miles. Belfast-Cork approx 213 miles, no chunnel required, although the population density is obviously an impediment

 

5m people v 130m people?

[DiveController]

the population density is obviously an impediment

 

Yes, I said that

[Junctionmad]

"Air travel run for business class?" Never noticed any class division on Ryanair, but maybe I missed that.

 

One must look at the whole airline industry not just a small section. Aer lingus is an example of the " adding curtains " success. Worldwide business class pays for airlines. It's why they go to extraordinary lengths to provide for them.

 

I fail to see why curtains are the be all and end all for business class train travel. I have used laptops on ICRs, with a handy plug socket at every seat (something missing on older coaching stock) without the need for a curtain.

I think the " curtains" in my case is an analogy for comfort in general and tailoring to ones customers.

 

Comfort, the Mark IIIs were very good but we're tired. Economic decision to get new trains while the money is there over expensive refurbishment made sense (this is where Kieran's point about new seats came into it that you happily dismissed to suit your agenda once again). Coaching stock needed shunting, 201s and 071s thirsty. mark IIs clapped out. I personally find the ICRs very good. Noisier? Of course, but it's not that noticeable to me and it hasn't affected passenger numbers.

 

The life of mk3 is amply demonstrated by their continued use in the uk , even mi2s are in use worldwide to this day. Of course, the irish know better then everyone else. ( as we did when we bought the metrovicks !!)

 

The destruction of the mk 3 has all to do with " windfall" public money due to the government of the day ( greens ) which resulted in the wholesale change of strategy to railcars , dumping the 201 strategy so recently justified -funny that

 

Remember all financial decisions in cie have b toning to do with real ecomonics. It's dept of transport.

 

201s thirsty. , of course fuel costs are the issue at cie. !!! Funny they weren't obviously " thirsty " a few years previous when bought them.

Sounds like retrospective justification.

 

Noiser , damn noticeable to me. I want my train carriage quiet.

 

Most railway companies across the water and beyond have stripped back their catering as much as possible in recent years, including Virgin and my once beloved GNER and its successors. Good food on trains is like that on plains, a thing of the past.

 

The ability to cater for greater and greater numbers of passengers packed into fewer and fewer carriages, makes sit down restaurant cars or dining at ones seat very very difficult to achieve. One can go down the elite route , but that's not popular in Ireland

 

The M50 station idea is surreal to me. If you can show me a successful railway station on a motorway I will gladly read up on it. Heustons big problem is that it's too far outside the city centre. So why build something further away that's even more inconvenient? If I was a person travelling to Dublin city centre on business and was turfed out in cherry orchard I'd be livid. The opening of the Phoenix park tunnel next year to southern services to grand canal dock will be fantastic and I'd be happy to bet that it will increase travel numbers on IE.

 

The point is to allow car drivers to access intercity services. That isn't possible with city centre stations. It can take longer to get to Hueston then the whole journey by car. You can increase train speeds to Mach 10 and that does t do anything to journey times

 

The idea of trains terminating in a station with minuscule track configuration , pathing difficulties etc is questionable, it's not that the tunnel hasn't existed , it's more to do with ie accepting dart inter-connecter is doomed in any reasonable timescale.

 

If you want people to switch from cars to the train for such journies it needs to be much faster, affordable and convenient than driving. Hence the calls for better line speeds and the calling at more city centre based stations. This in turn can get many people out of anti social, gas guzzling nonsensical vehicles unsuited to the city centre. IE is also more affordable than British train travel under the private model.

 

You cannot beat cars in a small under populated country served by what is now an excellent under utilised motorway network. To try and compete is to chase the impossible.

 

What you can do is offer an " alternative " , like an aer lingus to Ryanair. Rather then speed, offer comfort, reliability , facilities.

Cars are what people want at present , trains are seem as a necessary evil. Most take them because they can't use their cars. That's not competition. Rail dominated canal traffic because it offered unrivalled speed , cars dominate railways because it offers unrevised convenience. Rail cannot recover that aspect , it's gone. But look at the success of passenger liners today , bigger and better then ever before, with levels of luxury never seen on the high seas. , but a different market and clientele. Intercity Rail must discover a new niche

 

Ps uk fares will be wrong when fewer passengers travel each year. .........waiting. Ie were reminded of its ridiculous fair structure in the strategic rail review 2013. It has failed to implement most of the recommendations . It has yet to implement variable rate fares to control excessive numbers at peak times

 

 

Outside profitable commuter and the more established intercity routes, the idea is to provide public service for the good of the citizens of the country. Will these lines make money? No, but that's not necessarily the point

 

Just my two cents.

 

True , but of this was really the policy , we have 200, 000 passengers travelling Waterford to limerick within€ 5.99 fares and 5 trains a day each way.

 

Instead it's more of a subvention to prevent mass unemployment of rail workers , that happens to transport passengers occasionally

 

No rail line is profitable in Ireland, in the normal sense of that term. This is true in many countries.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Junctionmad

[GSR 800]

Food on planes and trains are certainly a thing of the past I don't particularly hate the food but me being a tea lover was horrified by its taste. I find the 22ks as a realible service,I have never experienced spainish heat inside however maybe a tiny bit more leg room (only a few inches!) would hardly go to waist. I am not a regular commuter but I think the 26ks have a good enough interior but wil be needing a bit of an overhaul within a few years. I have rarely been on mk4s so I can't say much about them. All I can really say is I like their liveries!

[GSR 800]

Ok I am basing this on a guess the 201s are more powerful than the mk4 DVTs.I get that maintenance would be large but why on earth don't they have more 201s on the main line? It seems to be the most idiotic thing to leave them to rot after they cost I don't know how much but I can take a guess it had a lot of zeros! At least all the money wouldn't be going to waste. they say there is not enough work for them but their are plenty of mk4 DVTs and 22ks running On the mainline. I think that a smaller version of the 201s maybe about the size of a 141 would have been a better idea than those massive machines.

[Garfield]

Ok I am basing this on a guess the 201s are more powerful than the mk4 DVTs.I get that maintenance would be large but why on earth don't they have more 201s on the main line? It seems to be the most idiotic thing to leave them to rot after they cost I don't know how much but I can take a guess it had a lot of zeros! At least all the money wouldn't be going to waste. they say there is not enough work for them but their are plenty of mk4 DVTs and 22ks running On the mainline. I think that a smaller version of the 201s maybe about the size of a 141 would have been a better idea than those massive machines.

 

Of course the 201s are more powerful than the Mk4 DVTs, which are completely unpowered. Their engines are for train lighting, not traction.

 

Also can we tray and keep this discussion from staying off-topic? Thanks.

[Noel]

Ok I am basing this on a guess the 201s are more powerful than the mk4 DVTs.I get that maintenance would be large but why on earth don't they have more 201s on the main line? It seems to be the most idiotic thing to leave them to rot after they cost I don't know how much but I can take a guess it had a lot of zeros! At least all the money wouldn't be going to waste. they say there is not enough work for them but their are plenty of mk4 DVTs and 22ks running On the mainline. I think that a smaller version of the 201s maybe about the size of a 141 would have been a better idea than those massive machines.

 

The mk4 DVTs are just driving trailers with heat and power generators (i.e. EGV), and are either pulled or pushed by 201s. IE Mk4 DVTs have no tractive capability.

 

In the early 90s there seemed to be a clear strategy to replace the aging loco fleet (071s, 141/181 double headers and A class) with the large fleet of GM 201s that started entering service in 1994. Relegating the 071s to former 141/181/A tasks. The 32 x 201s represented a huge capital investment and modernisation of loco stock. Then only a decade later in 2006 IE made another significant capital investment in loco hauled services with the mk4 coaching stock. FLIP U-TURN then the spending spree in the naughties caught up with the strategic switch to ICRs and move away from the then relative recent capital programme on loco hauled services. Hence the arrival of the 22k fleet and premature cutting up of the mk3s.

 

What's done is done, no use crying now over spilt milk (i.e. apparent wasted of state capital funds lying idle in sidings or prematurley cut up). The 22k ICRs seem clean and efficient and hopefully will have a 40 year operational life. I presume the reason 071s have had service life continued is that they are more suitable for some freight and PWM traffic than the 201s rusting in sidings, or weight restrictions, etc. Personally the 22k seem fine for shorter commuter routes, but IMHO they do not provide a comfortable environment for long train journeys. Comfy seats even if compact is a fundamental for journeys over 90 minutes. Good luck to the new express service.

 

PS: Apologies garlfieldsghost posts crossed cause I was on the phone and didn't hit send.

[hurricanemk1c]

201s are definately more powerful than MKIV Control Cars - about 2,340hp more. Mark 4 Control Generator Cars do nothing for traction.

 

The 201 fleet is an absolute mess, due to being three different orders. 201-205 / 210-214 do not have push pull equipment fitted, different bearings on the bogies and other differences, compared to 215-226/229/232/234. 206/207/8208/8209/227/228/230 have NIR equipment and are thus restricted to those duties (the law in the North states that all stock must have AWS, TPWS, NIR Train Radio etc, or have a second competent person on board. I know which is cheaper day-to-day). Then you have the level of work required. As of today, there's 6 booked Class 201 diagrams. 5 Dublin-Cork and 1 Dublin-Belfast. Requirement of about 8 locos total, including time for A, B exams etc. Then freight. 3 flows (IWT, DFDS, Timber). Up to three IWT's a day, one timber and one DFDS - 6 locos. 14 out of 34 needed, based on just 201 usage. I make the current fleet to be 20 available for work (21 including 8208 under overhaul). Find the work first!

 

Apologies - answered twice before my post went up

[GSR 800]

Apologies Garfield I meant the control cars:facepalm:

[Garfield]

Apologies Garfield I meant the control cars:facepalm:

 

They're the same thing...