Irish Railway Models: cement bubble detail request

[Garfield]

Hi folks,

 

While work continues apace on development of the ballast hopper, we're using the quieter moments to work on its follow-up: the cement bubble. To this end, we're appealing for photographs which clearly show the topside hatch detailing, even more so than the photo below...

 

 

If you can help, please touch base with us by emailing patrick[at]irishrailwaymodels.com or richard[at]irishrailwaymodels.com. All assistance is greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

The Irish Railway Models team

[jhb171achill]

And standard CIE cattle trucks in the background; another essential for goods trains in the BnT era.

[jhb171achill]

Is that pic one of yours, Glenderg?

[Glenderg]

Is that pic one of yours, Glenderg?

 

No, taken before I was a glint in me aul lads eyes

[iarnrod]

 

we are keenly aware of other producers products and have no intention of interfering with their commercial strategies.

 

 

Does this mean that IMR don't plan on producing, in RTR, any modern type wagon that another producer has already produced a kit for?

[Glenderg]

No, of course not, but for the foreseeable future we will be focussing on the ballast and the bubble.

 

And though we have an internal wishlist for subsequent productions, none of the items on the list are available from any manufacturer at the moment.

 

What decisions are made a few thousand models down the road will be subject to consumer demand, cost, viability and a whole plethora of commercial reasons, rather than whether or not it's already produced.

 

Hope that clarifies things.

 

R.

[iarnrod]

No, of course not, but for the foreseeable future we will be focussing on the ballast and the bubble.

 

And though we have an internal wishlist for subsequent productions, none of the items on the list are available from any manufacturer at the moment.

 

What decisions are made a few thousand models down the road will be subject to consumer demand, cost, viability and a whole plethora of commercial reasons, rather than whether or not it's already produced.

 

Hope that clarifies things.

 

R.

 

That's great and thanks for the clarification. As far as I'm concerned, any modern Irish RTR wagon or loco is more than a welcome addition, and long may the IMR project list continue.

[Noel]

Yes, my earliest memories of them were of them sandwiched between H vans, cattle trucks, flat wagons and open wagons.

 

Younger modellers might want to bear in mind that pre-mid-70s, "block" trains almost didn't exist; goods trains were almost all mixed, and with all being loose-coupled, a guards van always took up the rear.

 

That's my idea of a goods train. So I could buy one or two and sandwich them between other loose coupled wagons and the essential brake van behind a black and tan 141 or C class B&T livery.

[Noel]

Here's one for nostalgia, brake van and all

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21571[/ATTACH]

 

Oh nice - are you part of the IRM marketing team. That's not fair using a B&T loco :)

[Garfield]

So I could buy one or two and sandwich them between other loose coupled wagons and the essential brake van behind a black and tan 141 or C class B&T livery.

 

Just to clarify... like the ballast wagons, they'll be sold in packs of three.

[Noel]

. . . we are keenly aware of other producers products and have no intention of interfering with their commercial strategies.

 

Sound sensible - but what about these?

 

(Moderator note: image removed)

 

I appreciate IRM's injection moulded plastic products will yield far detail and superior finish than 3D printing or resin bodies.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Garfield
Image removed

[jhb171achill]

That's my idea of a goods train. So I could buy one or two and sandwich them between other loose coupled wagons and the essential brake van behind a black and tan 141 or C class B&T livery.

 

Absolutely. I used to see the Belfast goods a lot in the 1960-75 period. Mostly "H" vans, but you'd get the odd flat, then the "Lancashire flats" with Guinness kegs started appearing - again, mixed in with a train of other stuff; same with the bubbles.

 

In those days, vans were a mixture. Most were "H", but many a GSR inside framed one, old wooden GSR or GNR types, palvans.... and even the odd cattle truck.

 

Modelling before 1970 is inevitably grey for everything, with brown appearing about 1969/70 and by the time the loose coupled stuff had disappeared in the mid 70s, brown represents maybe 65% of the wagons.

[Noel]

Just to clarify... like the ballast wagons, they'll be sold in packs of three.

 

I was going to take three but Richie's photo of a B&T 141 hauling a rake of them with a guard van makes more of them look quite appealing for that era despite my lack of memory. Were bubbles used on most routes, or were they concentrated on the likes of the Waterford and Cork lines?

[jhb171achill]

They were on many routes.

[Garfield]

I was going to take three but Richie's photo of a B&T 141 hauling a rake of them with a guard van makes more of them look quite appealing for that era despite my lack of memory. Were bubbles used on most routes, or were they concentrated on the likes of the Waterford and Cork lines?

 

Good to see our marketing methods are working!

 

As JB said, bubbles could be found operating on a wide range of routes, especially in the Black & Tan/Supertrain era.

[Noel]

Good to see our marketing methods are working!

 

As JB said, bubbles could be found operating on a wide range of routes, especially in the Black & Tan/Supertrain era.

 

Yes it is

 

PS: The word 'supertrain' is considered a profanity down our way :)

[jhb171achill]

Livery detail in those days; the darker CIE wagon grey, chassis included. Lettering in white stencil capitals mid-side: "BULK CEMENT". Below that, a "Roundel" logo, as the first of them were just too late for the "snail". The logo had white letters "CIE" surrounded by a tan "broken wheel".

 

Later, grey chassis, orange body with same lettering and logo all in black.

[steventrain]

Some pictures.

 

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/reply/51840/4w-cement-wagons#reply-51840

 

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/reply/4214/4w-Cement-bubbles#reply-4214

 

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20L/Limerick%20Junction/IrishRailwayStations.html#LimerickJct_20050129_030_CC_JA.jpg

[rebelred]

No, of course not, but for the foreseeable future we will be focussing on the ballast and the bubble.

 

And though we have an internal wishlist for subsequent productions, none of the items on the list are available from any manufacturer at the moment.

 

What decisions are made a few thousand models down the road will be subject to consumer demand, cost, viability and a whole plethora of commercial reasons, rather than whether or not it's already produced.

 

Hope that clarifies things.

 

R.

 

Mark IV's are on the way lads

[Noel]

How were cement bubbles used? Might sound silly, obviously they transported some form of cement but what type and how.

 

Did they transport dry cement dust or a wet mix? If the latter was it time sensitive to deliver and was there a significant washing process needed to keep the wagons serviceable after each load was dispensed. If the former how were they loaded and unloaded (i.e. air blown, gravity, auger, etc)?

[Weshty]

Dry powder. Under pressure it acts as a viscous liquid.

[Noel]

Mark IV's are on the way lads

 

Hmmm, one needs a very very large layout to operate realistic formations of modern long coaching stock such as mk4s or mk3s and the very long 201s with large radius curves to boot and very long station platforms. If I had the skills I'd love to build shortened mk4 look a like coaches that were about 60ft scale length (instead of 74/77ft) in the green grey livery as they'd look the part but fit well on typical sized model sized layouts.

[Noel]

Dry powder. Under pressure it acts as a viscous liquid.

 

Thanks. So presume it is pumped in and out under pressure and therefore tanks don't need washing out between loads?

[flange lubricator]

The cement was powder, loading and discharge was carried out by low pressure high volume blown air , the cement was the same grade as used in construction the only exception was the Castlemungret to Athy which was used in the manafacture of roof tiles the wagons on the Athy Cement could not be mixed with the wagons from the other cement jobs like Athenry ,Tullamore,Waterford , Belfast,Sligo, Cork and Cabra as far as I aware.

Edited December 5, 2015 by flange lubricator

[flange lubricator]

Found this picture in the O'Dea Collection at the National Libary note the Handbrake which is a wheel as compared to a lever and the position of the Vacuum Bag/hose. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375

[Mayner]

Found this picture in the O'Dea Collection at the National Libary note the Handbrake which is a wheel as compared to a lever and the position of the Vacuum Bag/hose. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375

 

Flange Lubricator

 

Its possible the wagon in the photo is one of the original 1964 batch, the hand brake arrangement is similar to the Guinness container wagons and other vacuum fitted wagons built in the late 1950s early 60s.

 

 

 

The 12t container wagons/flats were later converted to PWD use.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Mayner

[Horsetan]

Can I just say that I've never seen a topic expand this fast on the Forum before. Cement bubbles must be like the Holy Grail!

[flange lubricator]

Yes Mayner I think that is correct this photo http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218 also from the O'Dea Collection is from 1967 note the newer wagons behind the loco have hand brake lever while the wagons further back dont?? also brake van front and rear.

Edited December 5, 2015 by flange lubricator

[Glenderg]

The cement was powder, loading and discharge was carried out by low pressure high volume blown air , the cement was the same grade as used in construction the only exception was the Castlemungret to Athy which was used in the manafacture of roof tiles the wagons on the Athy Cement could not be mixed with the wagons from the other cement jobs like Athenry , Waterford , Belfast,Sligo, Cork and Cabra as far as I aware.

 

Flange, I'm quite conflicted here. Normally I'd take your contributions as verbatim, but in this instance I'm unsure about the roof tile bit.

 

Portland cement generally only requires a factory additive when the contract determines it, like the addition of clinker in Ecocem or chem 3 to give additional strength etc. This is mainly seen today on capital projects like speciality bridges and nuclear installations.

 

BR standards were the only game in town then (and still are imho) but I can't imagine a scenario where Irish cement had a contract to produce such volume of high volume contaminating product that required "boxing off" a rake. Nor can I think of a capital project from 1960 to now that would validate it.

 

Lagan concrete were, and still are, the roof tile guru's.

 

My scepticism demands I make a few phone calls and do more research, but it would be fascinating if it were true.

 

 

As for the wagon behind the mpd railcar thing, it looks like a donor chassis. Wrong Leaf springs & axle boxes, lack of brake gear, slim buffers and absence of discharge gear suggests it was a trial wagon on loading gauge tests.

 

This was done with the ammonias too.

 

Much to think about lads, ye're contributions have been enlightening!

[josefstadt]

Found this picture in the O'Dea Collection at the National Libary note the Handbrake which is a wheel as compared to a lever and the position of the Vacuum Bag/hose. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375

 

The wagon in this photo, 25062, is one of the first series of bulk cement wagons built, dating from 1964. In Steventrain's post above, the first two images are of wagons from the final series, 25199 and 25172, introduced 1972 and have the hand brake lever and the different vacuum bag arrangement. The third image is of a first series wagon, 25051, with the same vacuum bag arrangement, but with a lever instead of a wheel for the hand brake, suggesting that the wagon's hand brake was modified at some stage.

 

The O'Dea collection also contains this image of an empty bulk cement train approaching Drogheda headed by A32 (dated June 1967): http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306207

[Noel]

The O'Dea collection also contains this image of an empty bulk cement train approaching Drogheda headed by A32 (dated June 1967): http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306207

 

Interesting photo. Is that a portable ESB inspection crew car in the background suspended from HT cables or some sort of mini industrial cable car? Given there are two cars suspended it looks like the latter but where and for what purpose? (Forgive the drift but it's a curious photo)

Edited December 5, 2015 by Noel

[Mayner]

Flange, I'm quite conflicted here. Normally I'd take your contributions as verbatim, but in this instance I'm unsure about the roof tile bit.

 

Portland cement generally only requires a factory additive when the contract determines it, like the addition of clinker in Ecocem or chem 3 to give additional strength etc. This is mainly seen today on capital projects like speciality bridges and nuclear installations.

 

BR standards were the only game in town then (and still are imho) but I can't imagine a scenario where Irish cement had a contract to produce such volume of high volume contaminating product that required "boxing off" a rake. Nor can I think of a capital project from 1960 to now that would validate it.

 

Lagan concrete were, and still are, the roof tile guru's.

 

My scepticism demands I make a few phone calls and do more research, but it would be fascinating if it were true.

 

 

As for the wagon behind the mpd railcar thing, it looks like a donor chassis. Wrong Leaf springs & axle boxes, lack of brake gear, slim buffers and absence of discharge gear suggests it was a trial wagon on loading gauge tests.

 

This was done with the ammonias too.

 

Much to think about lads, ye're contributions have been enlightening!

 

The Tegral factory in Athy manufactured asbestos cement and later fibre cement products including water mains, wall and roof cladding. http://www.tegral.com/index.php?page=about-us

 

Rapid hardening Portland cement with a more finely ground clinker was likely to be used in the manufacturing process, hence the need for a dedicated rake of wagons for the Tegral traffic.

 

Depending on whether you take 1960 or 64 as the starting point the CIE "Standard" 20' flat wagon chassis evolved over a period of between 8 & 12 years, there is likely to be considerable difference in chassis detail between individual batches of bulk cement wagons.

 

The running gear in the photo of the MPD shunting at Derry is similar to the flat wagons introduced in the early 1960s. The wagon is fitted with 8 shoe clasp brake gear with a handwheel to operate the handbrake similar to fitted H Vans, Cattle Wagons and Flats all intended to run as tail traffic on passenger and mail trains.

 

 

CIE may have retro-fitted the initial 1964 batch with lever brake gear to bring them into line with the rest of the wagon fleet and reduce maintenance costs. Still an interesting variation for someone who likes to customise their wagon feet.

[Noel]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21577[/ATTACH]

 

Wow it was the background on John's photo that caught my attention - the essence of goods wagons on Irelands railways, now I'd buy three rakes of those RTR corrugated wagons to run on our layout and fill every siding.

[josefstadt]

Interesting photo. Is that a portable ESB inspection crew car in the background suspended from HT cables or some sort of mini industrial cable car? Given there are two cars suspended it looks like the latter but where and for what purpose? (Forgive the drift but it's a curious photo)

 

Noel, it was an aerial ropeway which was used by Irish Cement to move limestone and shale from its quarry on the North Road to the cement factory at Boyne Road. Opened on March 29th 1938 it was 2¼ miles long and consisted of 140 metal buckets suspended from the wire rope at 58-yard intervals, the cable being supported on towers or pylons spaced 100 yards apart. Each bucket could carry about 1 ton of material and they moved at 4 mph. The system closed down on January 20th 1978, having reportedly carried over 21 million tons of material in that time. Subsequently it was dismantled and sold for scrap. (Thanks to the 'Classic Irish Buses Website - 75 years of buses in Drogheda' for the details of the system)

[flange lubricator]

Glenderg, please don't take any of my postings as verbatim I am far from the fount of knowledge compared to some on here, to use cement parlance I have a head like a cavity block on these matters,but to add to my earlier post over the years the various silos were at various times supplied by either plant Platin or Castlemungret but Athy (Tegrel)was only ever supplied from Castlemungret. I was also led to believe that the Athy cement loaded from a separate silo in Castlemungret as far as I'm aware.

Edited December 5, 2015 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

I remember those buckets going over the main road near Drogheda... in the 1960s there was no such thing as health and safety, and as far as I recall they didn't have any sort of safety net to catch potential falling material as it passed over the road.

 

An interesting project for a layout! Quarry scene with moving buckets...