Symphony in "A", July 1975, Drogheda.

[Warbonnet]

Hopefully, josefstadt! After two colour albums concentrating on black'n'tan, it's time silver and green and narrow gauge (plus a few quirky things) got an album - along with steam. And when that's done, there'll be a fourth and final in the "album" series; basic outline currently worked out. I've some real oddball stuff for that!

 

Meantime, for reading instead of pictures, "Rails Through Connemara" is almost ready to go to, and is agreed with, the publisher.

 

That'll keep me of the streets for a while.

 

Can't wait JB!

[GSR 800]

From a new book now being worked on.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23643[/ATTACH]

Steam you say? Count me in.

Note A7 is missing a window wiper, along with, from what I can see, her window frames too.

[jhb171achill]

In those days, Harry, they only had the one window wiper. (A point for modellers, perhaps). Operating practices were still very much geared towards "drivers side" and "fireman's side". Same with the "C"'s, and also the B101s. The B121s had two from new, and while I can't remember for sire, I'd be 99% certain the 141 / 181s had two as well.

[DiveController]

Note A7 is missing a window wiper, along with, from what I can see, her window frames too.

 

You beat me to it, Harry. I've noticed the absence of a wiper on the 'fireman's side' many time before but was saving the question until we were quite done with headlights. I presume they were all retrofitted at some point but wasn't sure when.

It's interesting that the fireman was there as another pair of eyes in some/all circumstances but had no wiper when it would have been most needed, and that 121's had wipers both sides but were (initially) running bonnet first!

Edited April 2, 2016 by DiveController

[GSR 800]

In those days, Harry, they only had the one window wiper. (A point for modellers, perhaps). Operating practices were still very much geared towards "drivers side" and "fireman's side". Same with the "C"'s, and also the B101s. The B121s had two from new, and while I can't remember for sire, I'd be 99% certain the 141 / 181s had two as well.

When were they fitted with the other John?

I remember seeing a picture of an A in green(one of the ones with the darker shade methinks) with both wipers. I think it was 1958-9.

[Mayner]

Removing the wiper on the fireman's side was probably an economy measure during the Todd Andrews era. The Metro Vicks seem to have been introduced with a full sets of wipers there is photo of a newly introduced A3, C232 in the Irish Metrovick book. The majority of Metrovicks seem to have lost their second pair of wipers by 1959, they seem to have been replaced by 1968. The Irish Metrovick book has a good collection of colour and black and white photos of Metrovicks with one or two sets of wipers.

[josefstadt]

The photo on the front cover of IRRS Journal 187 (June 2015) of A16 at Killiney in the summer of 1956 shows the locomotive with wipers on both sides.

[GSR 800]

These photos showing them under construction, and brand new show them with both wipers.

 

The twin sulzers also lacked one of their wipers.

I'm surprised that I have not noticed it until now, as something like that would seem much more obvious.

Edited April 2, 2016 by GSR 800

[Eiretrains]

The wipers were originally fitted to both windows when new, but similarly with other technical features of these Crossley locomotives they were fragile and frequently prone to being unreliable. If the driver's side malfunctioned, the wiper off the fireman's window was fitted to it instead which is why in later years they only appear to feature one on the driver's side. As already presumed, the fireman's side wasn't too much of a priority. It's a bit similar to the way some window frames, cab doors and wipers etc.. were swapped around (there's grey 071 with an old orange wiper ).

[DiveController]

That's very interesting, that they had them, lost them, and the explanation of them being used as spares makes a lot of sense now. I can't access my book on Metrovicks right now (it's on the wrong continent) but seems like the wipers were as reliable as the engines!

[jhb171achill]

Yes... I think those posts answer it all. My own recollections suggest the second one reappeared after they were re-engined.

 

When running with just one, you could see some sort of fitting indicating the position where the other should be.

 

Gsr800 - just one got the darker green - a late aberration to normal livery practice of the day, as it had the simplified lining applied to things of lighter green. I think it was A46 but I'd need to check. It didn't keep it long, as black'n'tan beckoned!

[GSR 800]

Yes... I think those posts answer it all. My own recollections suggest the second one reappeared after they were re-engined.

 

When running with just one, you could see some sort of fitting indicating the position where the other should be.

 

Gsr800 - just one got the darker green - a late aberration to normal livery practice of the day, as it had the simplified lining applied to things of lighter green. I think it was A46 but I'd need to check. It didn't keep it long, as black'n'tan beckoned!

 

Thanks John. I think the darker green looked better, the lighter green(in my opinion) didn't suit them very well.

[BSGSV]

Oh, you bad people suggesting the CIE diesels had firemen! Unlike BR, CIE moved to remove the second man right from the first arrival of the Metrovicks, and they were driver only from the start. Again, unlike BR, CIE insisted on having all four positions fitted with driving controls, not just the left hand side of the cab, although that was the usual driving position. Hence the recovery of the wiper motors on the secondman's side for re-use as spares. The Metrovicks adopted a similar wiper motor to the GM's later, and got both wipers back.

CIE did end up having to put another man in the cab, to operate the staff snatcher when required, which I would imagine irritated management hugely, as one-man operation was a sacred cow, like the non-use of sanding. The early Metrovicks had sanding and even the 121's had the boxes fitted as standard. CIE decided it wasn't needed.

Edited April 5, 2016 by BSGSV

[jhb171achill]

Interesting, bsgsv! :-)

[DiveController]

A46 was the only "A", and apart from the B113 and "D" class, the only diesel locomotive ever to carry the older darker green - a strange throwback for a year or two between its silver and black paint-coats.

Was reading my copy of Barry Carse's book on Irish Metro-Vicks, which reminded me of this post. It states that A46 was the first A class to be painted in the darker green (and possibly the only one with a waistband, I'm not sure), but seemingly abou a dozen A class (named in the book) were painted in dark green in the period 1958-9 (likely due to existing in dilapidation in original silver). The lighter green became the new norm c. 1960. It goes on to say that A46 was the only one to go from the darker green to the lighter green, which in itself is surprising after such a short time in the dark green with the new B'n'T livery around the corner in 1961

 

Thanks for that K. So 233 never got the window back. I suppose we can assume that 234 didn't either.

I have looked for but not managed to find a photo of C234/109 (as it seems to have been used so little with the NIR)

It would seem that the port window was lost when she was rebuilt with the Maybach engine but there may have been no necessity to change this back when she got her GM 8-654E, I suppose.

Edited November 12, 2016 by DiveController

[DiveController]

On the return flight I got to read the rest of the book and I was interested in the buffer beam colors on the 201 class. In black livery post 1964 they had a red buffer beam but when the ends were painted yellow so was the bufferbeam. C203 appears on p36 thus liveried in 1968. B233 is also on the same page with a red bufferbeam and yellow end panels in 1969. Was this peculiar the Maybach engined rebuilds 233 & 234 as the C201s when rebuilt were turned out in B'n'T livery

Edited November 15, 2016 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

Very few got yellow buffer beams - it was a short lived experiment.

 

Regarding the dark green on "A"'s, my own sources indicate that only the one had it - certainly a dozen would be very unlikely.

 

I noticed at the toy fair in Stillorgan some C and A classes somewhere for sale in dark green, and a G - the G also having a grey roof. These are also inaccurate - just for the record! :-)

[Kirley]

I have looked for but not managed to find a photo of C234/109 (as it seems to have been used so little with the NIR)

It would seem that the port window was lost when she was rebuilt with the Maybach engine but there may have been no necessity to change this back when she got her GM 8-654E, I suppose.

 

Kevin, found this one on my PC, apologies to the owner, I have no details where I found it.

 

[DiveController]

Great question. I found a photo of 233 and the porthole was still missing. I haven't tracked down a suitable photo of 234/NIR 109 yet.

Do you happen to know when that photo was taken and if possible would you post it? I thought I had found photos of both 233 and 234 from different sources. In both cases they were in B'n'T livery (which all the other C received after being re-engined with GM engines) and numbered 233 and 234 without the prefix (post 1972). However in both cases these still had their Maybach engines as they did not receive their GM engines until much later than other C's (1980 and 1979 respectively)

[BSGSV]

Do you happen to know when that photo was taken and if possible would you post it? I thought I had found photos of both 233 and 234 from different sources. In both cases they were in B'n'T livery (which all the other C received after being re-engined with GM engines) and numbered 233 and 234 without the prefix (post 1972). However in both cases these still had their Maybach engines as they did not receive their GM engines until much later than other C's (1980 and 1979 respectively)

 

See post 62 in this thread.

Edited November 24, 2016 by BSGSV

[DiveController]

Yes, quite correct. It's 1981 in Supertrain and 233 had its GM engine installed the previous year. No porthole rear on the RHS. Just the three:) I doubt that 234 has on a fourth either

[hurricanemk1c]

I think everyone who survived the ICRs should be given the card for a good psychiatrist .

 

I must be able to get a few years out of that then - 33265.33 miles on them

 

Interesting thread. I would add that there is one oddity shown at last night's IRRS Slideshow - an all black A Class anyone?

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Hurricane, there were two distinctive "all-black" liveries for "A"'s.#

 

First - the livery which the ITG had A39 in from initial preservation until its reincarnation in BnT last year. This was all black, with the number in large numerals on the ends and the centre of the sides. No "roundel". After just a short time, they amended the sides - instead of a plain numeral in the centre, small numerals were put on lower body sides at each end, beside the driver's doors. In place of the large central numeral, a "roundel" (white letters, tan surround) was positioned. In each case, the usual white "flash" above the end cab windows was used, but the white lines didn't continue round the bodysides.

 

It might be nice to see one of the ITG's two "C"'s done like that.

 

It might be added that the "all-black" livery, in several variations, was used as standard between 1963 and about 1967 on all existing pre-GM classes; A, B101, B113, C, D, E and G classes.

[Noel]

I remember seeing all black MVs in the 60s

[jhb171achill]

They would have first appeared in 1963/4.

 

The history of the black'n'tan was broadly as follows. First repaints from green had tan up to waist level. Then all black in one of the variations above, in some cases by degrees with yellow front patches added, others not. Once the 141s arrived, in black'n'tan, a lower tan band, not full height, was gradually added to rebuilt A and c classes, some D, G, and E classes having tan too.

 

By the time the "supertrain" orange and black appeared in 1972, all the "all-blacks" were gone except for the E421 class, none of which carried any form of "supertrain" ever. The Es remained all black until withdrawal of the last in 1986.

 

Between, say, 1964 and 1972, most of the above variations could be seen running concurrently, depending on painting dates.

[hurricanemk1c]

Yes, Hurricane, there were two distinctive "all-black" liveries for "A"'s.#

 

First - the livery which the ITG had A39 in from initial preservation until its reincarnation in BnT last year. This was all black, with the number in large numerals on the ends and the centre of the sides. No "roundel". After just a short time, they amended the sides - instead of a plain numeral in the centre, small numerals were put on lower body sides at each end, beside the driver's doors. In place of the large central numeral, a "roundel" (white letters, tan surround) was positioned. In each case, the usual white "flash" above the end cab windows was used, but the white lines didn't continue round the bodysides.

 

It might be nice to see one of the ITG's two "C"'s done like that.

 

It might be added that the "all-black" livery, in several variations, was used as standard between 1963 and about 1967 on all existing pre-GM classes; A, B101, B113, C, D, E and G classes.

 

JB - this one (A28) was completely black - no white flash (at least at one end). There was a superb photo at Fermoy in the late 60s / early 70s (pre 1976 for sure)

Edited November 25, 2016 by hurricanemk1c

[jhb171achill]

JB - this one (A28) was completely black - no white flash (at least at one end). There was a superb photo at Fermoy in the late 60s / early 70s (pre 1976 for sure)

 

That, then, was one of two things. (1) Filthy; thus the white bit entirely covered by grime thanks to the filth-spewing Crossley engines. I saw a "C" like that. (2) An absolute one-off - sent into traffic before complete repaint.

 

I'd be more inclined to go for the first - can you put up a photo which might invite comment as to how clean or dirty it was otherwise, thus veering the verdict towards (1) or (2)?

 

An interesting one.

 

If it was Fermoy, it has to be pre-1967, as that's when that line closed. And that was also long pre-re-engining, so Crossley it was.

[Mayner]

That, then, was one of two things. (1) Filthy; thus the white bit entirely covered by grime thanks to the filth-spewing Crossley engines. I saw a "C" like that. (2) An absolute one-off - sent into traffic before complete repaint.

 

I'd be more inclined to go for the first - can you put up a photo which might invite comment as to how clean or dirty it was otherwise, thus veering the verdict towards (1) or (2)?

 

An interesting one.

 

If it was Fermoy, it has to be pre-1967, as that's when that line closed. And that was also long pre-re-engining, so Crossley it was.

 

[video=youtube;c3L-XaV66Ds]

 

The Australians seem to have solved the problem with the smoke and fumes, very clean exhaust on WAGR Metrovick in use on Perth suburban passenger services.

 

Maybe it was a combination of the Irish climate, grade of diesel bought by CIE and design of the bodywork, even the re-engine Metrovicks tended to get a lot dirtier than the Sulzers and General Motors locos.

[DiveController]

The history of the black'n'tan was broadly as follows. First repaints from green had tan up to waist level. Then all black in one of the variations above, in some cases by degrees with yellow front patches added, others not. Once the 141s arrived, in black'n'tan, a lower tan band, not full height, was gradually added to rebuilt A and c classes, some D, G, and E classes having tan too.

One peculiarity for modellers of the C class is that 206 was the first to receive its GM engine in 1969 and B206 was repainted with the waist level band rather than the low band in all other B201s when re-engined (233 and 234 which had been re-engined earlier with Maybach engines, of course)

 

JB - this one (A28) was completely black - no white flash (at least at one end). There was a superb photo at Fermoy in the late 60s / early 70s (pre 1976 for sure)

I'd definitely like to see a photo of that if the member or anyone has one

[jhb171achill]

[video=youtube;c3L-XaV66Ds]

 

The Australians seem to have solved the problem with the smoke and fumes, very clean exhaust on WAGR Metrovick in use on Perth suburban passenger services.

 

Maybe it was a combination of the Irish climate, grade of diesel bought by CIE and design of the bodywork, even the re-engine Metrovicks tended to get a lot dirtier than the Sulzers and General Motors locos.

 

I remember seeing a pair of BnT 141s double heading a Westport - Dublin train about 1975, both still in the older livery. Obviously, this involved a white stripe right round. The loco was so filthy - a rare thing then - that the lower orange part on the cabside was completely invisible. A photo would have shown an apparently black loco with just the white bit above. With an A or a C class, the white bit was a sitting target to be covered by filth and gunge!