Brass "scratch-aid" kits (Worsley)

[jhb171achill]

Gentlefolks...

 

I have been swopping a few emails with Allen Doherty and I thought the results would be worthwhile, in case anyone isn't aware (though many might be).

 

My understanding is that he needs to do a run of 12 kits on one production run, but they DON'T all have to be identical. My question had been in relation to six wheeled coach bodies, but apparently he could do, for example, three sets of brake, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, totalling 12, on one sheet - plus the six wheeled chassis to go with them.

 

Worsley already advertises various GSWR and DNGR six-wheeled coach kits.

 

Just a point of info. A long-term omission has been CIE cattle wagons and MGWR six wheelers; both as absolutely essential as "H" vans and Bullied opens to the 1950-70 period. This could be the answer, though kit-making skills are required, of course.

[Andy Cundick]

Certainly up for some MGW coaches.Alans coming to my show in August so i'll wave some coach drawings at him,not sure about the cattle truck bit too modern image Andy

[jhb171achill]

Andy

 

Excellent idea. I have MGWR drawings somewhere (in fact, I might have sent them to the publisher as they're going to be in the Clifden book). If I can find them they might be of use, though they've been circulated here and there before.

 

MGWR six-wheelers were an integral part of the passenger stock landscape right up to the last ones withdrawn in Cork in 1963.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the cattle trucks being too modern image - the CIE ones cover the 1950s to (Loughrea) 1975. Certainly there were older ones, though these seem to have been withdrawn (along with any remaining "soft-tops") by the mid / late 50s - their relatively swift demise possibly because most were clapped out. If you're modelling early CIE (1945-56), yes, they're too modern, but a decade later seems to be more popular in modelling terms, and there's much more available. However, for the 1960s the standard CIE cattle truck is a must.

 

We have the very fine kit of the GNR one, but few of these seem to have appeared on the CIE system; I certainly never saw one. I would guess that the wholesale closure of the GNR and the elimination of goods on UTA put paid to most if not all.

 

As others have mentioned, British cattle prototypes don't lend themselves to conversion to Irish stock as they were very different in design (like horse boxes).

 

Allen already has some GSWR six-wheelers. A motley mix of these, plus bogies ancient and modern, and MGWR stuff, would suit a 1950s to 1963 layout well.

 

Currently I'm struggling with space to put something new together after a layout-drought of quite a few years more than I care to remember. I would think I'll be looking at 1959-63, so in that case I would certainly go for several.

 

Given Allen's comments re. what's viable, he says 12 minimum to a sheet, I suggested maybe one full brake, one brake third, five thirds, two firsts and three seconds. Apparently, such as this is certainly do-able.

 

For anyone else involved (Bantry layout?) in the 50s, this would be a boon for you too. Even Arigna Road; the SLNCR had a habit of borrowing GNR or CIE stock when their own diminishing stock of clapped out relics of passenger stock were insufficient. Most of the borrowed stock came from Sligo and was often MGWR six-wheelers. One photo in one of Charles Friel's books shows an excursion entering Enniskillen with Lough Erne / Melvin hauling about five or six coaches - several being MGWR stock (and you can see the faded "flying snails" on them!).

 

A sheet of CIE cattle trucks would be a great addition too. People forget that in rural Ireland, a model goods or mixed train without cattle stock was akin to a model passenger layout based in 1995 with no Mk. 3s!

[Andy Cundick]

AS Valencia is 1935 and Courtmacsherry is 1930ish CIE is modern image ,quite agree about cattle trucks having just built GSW one.Chatting with Simon de Souza(Foxrock Models) he seems interested in doing a MGW one from a drawing i let him have from the Railway Engineer so fingers crossed.Andy.

[Colin R]

I would be up for anything from the 1950 to 1960's. I did speak to Allen about the NCC Jeep and he reckoned he needs to have at least four confirmed orders for it to happen.

 

That said CIE cattle wagons would be a good start, the only problem with a brass cattle wagon would be getting the right depth to the framing, I would prefer to see them made from a laser etched ply or a Resin body.

 

Talking of other coaches may be the SL&NCR coaches 9,10 & 11 would also be great, I know Alphagraphix do them in card, but to have a brass chassis for them would be a great bonus.

 

Speaking to Allan some time ago he said he would produce any loco or item of rolling stock if he had 1 the drawing and two a minimum of orders to fill one sheet full of etchings.

 

Obviously a steam loco will take up much more space on a sheet of brass compared to say a coach, that said Jon, you know the ratio and the make up of MGWR coach rakes if such a thing existed.

 

I do hope they also have a Martin Atock's 6-wheeled 3rd class brake, a 6-wheeled Lavatory Composite coach plus of course the 5-compartment 6-wheeled 3rd class coach in the mix. I would also love to see both B&CDR State coach and a B&CDR 6-wheel Passenger Brake van appear as well, as I am not sure if they have been produced at the moment.

 

 

Colin

 

 

PS I forgot could also do with some D&SER coaches to go with a J15

Edited June 29, 2017 by Colin R

[Mike 84C]

I agree with you JHB re stock for Bantry but as ,at the moment, two of us are the rolling stock providers and we are both pensioners! we are watching the pennies! BUT I would probably go for MGW coaches and CIE cattle wagons. I am mulling over doing a resin casting but have to make a master as yet and I seem to be drowning in other projects!

[jhb171achill]

AS Valencia is 1935 and Courtmacsherry is 1930ish CIE is modern image ,quite agree about cattle trucks having just built GSW one.Chatting with Simon de Souza(Foxrock Models) he seems interested in doing a MGW one from a drawing i let him have from the Railway Engineer so fingers crossed.Andy.

 

Ah! Superb, Andy.

 

I didn't know you were doing a period that early - GSR layouts are (to my knowledge) almost, if not literally non-existent. Both a Valencia / Valentia and a Courtmacsherry prototype would invite quite a hotch-potch of carriages and wagons, almost certainly no two alike! And for 1935 you've all three GSR liveries too, which make for more variety, and make up for nothing but plain grey engines! (Unless 800 is going to make a surprise and premature appearance!)...

 

Both should be extremely interesting projects - good luck!

[jhb171achill]

...........you know the ratio and the make up of MGWR coach rakes if such a thing existed.

 

I do hope they also have a Martin Atock's 6-wheeled 3rd class brake, a 6-wheeled Lavatory Composite coach plus of course the 5-compartment 6-wheeled 3rd class coach in the mix.

 

 

PS I forgot could also do with some D&SER coaches to go with a J15

 

In MGWR days the typical branch make-up was a full brake or brake 3rd, and a first, second and third. Later, when only two classes existed, it was a first, two thirds and a brake. Some of the old seconds were just downgraded to third, so the actual carriage type mix would have been the same. By the time CIE came into being, anything goes!

 

By 1930, the Clifden and Killala branch sets were often just a brake 3rd and a composite, which could be anything. The Achill set was by now a bogie compo (references to all other carriages above being 6w) plus a brake 3rd 6w. Kingscourt by 1930 quite usually had just the two as well, while the Cavan branch had maybe four.

 

The MGWR had a higher proportion of six wheelers than the GSWR, which is in great part the reason why most bogie wooden stock by the mid 50s were GSWR origin, while most MGWR survivors were 6w.

 

DSER stock vanished at a greater rate. jhb171Senior recalled MGWR 6 wheelers appearing on the Harcourt Street line very soon after the GSR takeover, as he commuted on that line every day at that stage, observing milk churns being loaded at Dundrum for Harcourt Street...but that's another story!

 

As to J15s with DSER stock, that would be Amiens Street - Bray. Such a combination, while possible, is unlikely to have happened often elsewhere. I'm sure J15s appeared on the Harcourt Street line too - certainly, senior mentioned non-DSER locos there in the mate 30s anyway - but I can't remember whether he said they were MGWR, GSWR, or that he didn't remember himself....

[Colin R]

So do I have this right then that very little Dublin & South Eastern Railway rolling stock survived after the formation of the GSR?

 

Colin

[DiveController]

Would they be suitable for a certain brass kit due for release late 2017, a MGWR Ks/GSR 650 Class with superheated round topped boiler round canopy cab, open coal rails tender as running 1916-Mid 1930s or in its later CIE condition?

[jhb171achill]

So do I have this right then that very little Dublin & South Eastern Railway rolling stock survived after the formation of the GSR?

 

Colin

 

I wouldn't say very little immediately after the formation, but while much GSWR and MGWR stuff got transferred onto the South Eastern, not so much DSER stock went elsewhere. While I can't quote actual statistics, I do know that by 1950 a large proportion of DSER stock is no longer listed as being on the books. Then, over 1951/2, CIE build a lot of new stock, thus cascading more six-wheelers from elsewhere onto Bray - Amiens St & Harcourt St services.

 

By the mid 50s, the DSER is a mix of new CIE, the odd Bredin, brand new Park Royals, and a mixture (especially in terms of suburban six-wheelers) of DSER, GSWR and MGWR stock.

 

By the late 50s, most surviving pre-1925 main line or bogie stock is GSWR, while surviving six wheelers, as excursion / branch line / peak period stock, appear to be mostly MGWR, but many GSWR types still lurking.

 

For Mayner's 650 class kit - or indeed any MGWR prototype - or just about any steam loco in CIE days, even into the diesel "C" class era, the solid old wooden Midland six-wheeler is not only compatible, it's as good as obligatory.

 

By 1959, very few DSER coaches at all exist.

 

And - crucially - for a DSER modeller, since ex-DSER stock (a) became rarer quicker, and (b) seem to have remained on home territory, the following conclusions can be drawn:

 

1. Only a DSER loco, or a Midland of GSWR one know to have worked the DSER line, is properly or normally compatible with DSER stock. CIE being the hotchpotch working museum that it was, I'm sure there was the odd exception, but that would be the general idea.

 

2. A layout based elsewhere is not the most realistic place for a DSER coach! Again, the odd exception might happen, such as a GAA special from, say, Wexford to Thurles!

[jhb171achill]

Would they be suitable for a certain brass kit due for release late 2017, a MGWR Ks/GSR 650 Class with superheated round topped boiler round canopy cab, open coal rails tender as running 1916-Mid 1930s or in its later CIE condition?

 

Not only suitable, but in a Midland days these engines pulled little else in passenger trains! It's like a new 071 and Mk 2s on a layout based in 1985!

 

In GSR days, same story exactly. In CIE days, obviously every steam or diesel loco hauled passenger trains consisting of ancient and modern, everything from the oldest then in traffic (1877 six wheeler) to brand new laminates, but these MGWR six wheeled yokes were very much in there among them.

 

Former MGWR stock made it all over the GSWR and DSER, and were regulars in West Cork right until closure, with a couple of old six-wheeled brake thirds still on the Drimoleague - Baltimore line (along with one or two equally venerable antiques of GSWR parentage).

 

At least one managed to hop onto the Tramore line. Six were borrowed by the Belfast & Co Down in the mid 1910s.

[minister_for_hardship]

 

By 1959, very few DSER coaches at all exist.

 

And - crucially - for a DSER modeller, since ex-DSER stock (a) became rarer quicker, and (b) seem to have remained on home territory, the following conclusions can be drawn:

 

Did they get withdrawn not long after '25 like a share of DSER locos, with being clapped out or written off during the Civil War?

[jhb171achill]

Firstly, Minister, there were less of them than the other companies. But also, exactly as you suggest, civil war losses and probably arrears of maintenance put paid to more.

 

They didn't disappear entirely. Senior remembered their distinctive door handles when commuting on the line between 1922 and 1937, and photos taken in the 1950s still show the odd one.

[Noel]

Hi JB

Do you know which type of 6 wheel coaches were used on this opening sequence of the 'Quiet Man' movie?

Noel

 

[video=youtube;L6YrqZ7HZ-0]

[Andy Cundick]

Ah! Superb, Andy.

 

I didn't know you were doing a period that early - GSR layouts are (to my knowledge) almost, if not literally non-existent. Both a Valencia / Valentia and a Courtmacsherry prototype would invite quite a hotch-potch of carriages and wagons, almost certainly no two alike! And for 1935 you've all three GSR liveries too, which make for more variety, and make up for nothing but plain grey engines! (Unless 800 is going to make a surprise and premature appearance!)...

 

Both should be extremely interesting projects - good luck!

 

Bit more than should,Valencia has been exhibited for the last 5 or so years and featured in Model Rail August 2014.Courtmacsherry is due at the Warley show next year.I had Valencia at Warminster the other week and gave both Argadeen and St Mologa a bit of a running session on it.800 you won't be seeing as i've done 802(everyone seems to do 800)trouble is that her and 7 Bredins do tend to clog up the station.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

I'd love to see that in the flesh, Andy...

 

Noel - the carriages in that clip are all GSWR 1885-95 period. Wayne gets out of a "lavatory composite", i.e. with a loo accessible to the two first class compartments, but not the thirds at the ends! Same era & origin of coach.

[murrayec]

Hi jhb

 

Just to update you with my 6W chassis endeavours as I mentioned on one of your previous 6 Wheeler threads;-

 

I now have a Worsley 'Wayne' coach- a LavComp, I have been collecting parts to work up the plan.

 

13'' sprung buffers and MJT 6 Wheel Compensated W Iron Kit with free central axle on brass wires, 8ft springs are out of stock at the moment which is holding up things a bit..

 

and a pcb board chassis plate to fit this kit..

 

A drawing is been worked on but I would like to have the springs in hand to finalise, I'm not sure yet if I'm using the Worsley W Irons n gear! as I feel the MJT kit is easier! Decisions, Decisions...

 

Do you know that SSM do a number of 6 Wheeler kits?

 

Eoin

Edited June 30, 2017 by murrayec

[Andy Cundick]

I'd love to see that in the flesh, Andy...

 

Noel - the carriages in that clip are all GSWR 1885-95 period. Wayne gets out of a "lavatory composite", i.e. with a loo accessible to the two first class compartments, but not the thirds at the ends! Same era & origin of coach.

 

Not Valencia i'm afraid but i should be bringing Castlederg over to Cultra next year.Andy

[Mayner]

SSM produce complete kits for 4 types of GSWR 6 wheel coach 1st, 1,2,3rd Comp, 3rd and 3rd brake

 

The kits are probably an easier starting point than using the Worsley Works scratch aids and sourcing castings, bearings, seats and other parts.

 

MGWR coaches are on the JM Design to do list

[jhb171achill]

Murrayec & Mayner..... excellent news from both of you.