BNCR & NCC Wagon numberplates

[jhb171achill]

Going back to the earlier days of the Belfast & Northern Counties Railway, a standard format of wagon numberplate was used. The GSWR has theirs too.

The BNCR one would end up being copied by the MRNCC, then the LMSNCC, these being retained in many cases by the UTA. As late as the early 1980s, NIR retained the old York Road steam crane, and a match truck for this still had one.

The following will be of use to modellers of anything NCC.

The GSWR design would also be maintained by the GSR, CIE and IE. Examples may still be seen today.

A few lineside trespass signs too: a few of these would liven many a platform end. The GSWR often had them at the end of platform ramps.

The DWWR style of wagon plate with square corners was perpetuated by the DSER.

[minister_for_hardship]

Is the one with "LMS" only from a regauged wagon?

[Dhu Varren]

LMS 2493 was one of 100 built for the NCC, by the LMS, to replace vans destroyed in the Blitz. 

Here is number 2489 from the same batch. Note the LMS plate above the L/H wheel.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

I was about to say that I was unaware what that was on. Senior did not note what it was on.

As a matter of curiosity, Dhu Varren, where did you get the info from?

It was rare for them to put just “LMS” let alone that type of standard LMS plate on anything, bar the “Jeeps”! Normally the rectangular LMSNCC was used.

[Dhu Varren]

I discovered a drawing in a book, the name of which I can't recall, but I think it was a book of LMS goods vehicle drawings. I do have a copy of the drawing which was 13/3447 to diagram D2074 lot number 1326, running numbers 2401 - 2500. The vans were actually built by the LNER, which could explain the LMS plates, as the parent company, the LMS, probably ordered the vans on behalf of the NCC.   

[airfixfan]

Correct that wagon was built by the LNER for LMS NCC during WW2 to replace wagons lost during the Belfast Blitz. That photo is from a book on Goods wagons in colour by Robert Hendry.

[WRENNEIRE]

Picked up this wagon plate over the weekend
Any idea what it may have been on?

 

[jhb171achill]

Probably one of these:

 

These were narrow-gauge wagons built by the Ballymena & Larne Railway, eventually taken over by the MR(NCC), then LMS(NCC), finally (Ballyclare-Larne only) UTA.

Some of them ended up on turf railways with BnM. There's one at the C & L in Dromod which followed such a route. They lasted until the last bit of that line closed in 1950. I don't think any of that type were transferred to the Ballycastle line. Derelict ones were to be seen lying about at Larne during the fifties after the B & L line closed entirely.

NCC wagon records do not seem to have survived, possibly as a result of York Road station being bombed in the 1940s, possibly due to Inchicore-style clearouts of old papers in the 1950s, so the above may not be gospel - but the number series suggests it.

[jhb171achill]

Addendum to the above; some broad gauge wagons were close to those numbers too, so another possibility is a 5'3" goods van. If so, probably scrapped in the 1960s.

 

[airfixfan]

The NCC records were destroyed in 1941 when York Road was bombed during the Belfast Blitz. Looks like a wagon plate from a 3 foot gauge NCC wagon. Remember being told years ago that Volume 3 of the NCC books by Currie covering NCC rolling stock manuscript was due to be published?

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, airfixfan said:

The NCC records were destroyed in 1941 when York Road was bombed during the Belfast Blitz. Looks like a wagon plate from a 3 foot gauge NCC wagon. Remember being told years ago that Volume 3 of the NCC books by Currie covering NCC rolling stock manuscript was due to be published?

In which case, I wonder what became of Russell Currie’s notes or research material…..?

All too often, valuable research material gathered by a railway historian, researcher or author gets chucked in the bin when he passes on….

[DSERetc]

A by the way!

The RPSI had a 40th anniversary dinner in the Railway Gallery of the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum on the 4th October 2004.    Instead of being numbered, the tables were designated by the initials of different railway companies in Ireland.   There were some very important guests invited, a few of whom did not have a very detailed knowledge of Irish railway history.     I was sitting beside one of these guests.    We were sitting at the Midland Railway. Northern Counties Committee table.    During a pause in the general conversation, he leaned over to me and asked me "Who was Mister NCC?

DSERetc

[seagoebox]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In which case, I wonder what became of Russell Currie’s notes or research material…..?

All too often, valuable research material gathered by a railway historian, researcher or author gets chucked in the bin when he passes on….

Russell Currie's immaculate notes are perfectly filed in a filing cabinet in the IRRS archive, and very detailed they are too !

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, seagoebox said:

Russell Currie's immaculate notes are perfectly filed in a filing cabinet in the IRRS archive, and very detailed they are too !

Ahhh!!! Excellent - wasn’t aware of that!

[airfixfan]

Why are they not being published by the IRRS?

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Why are they not being published by the IRRS?

Many of the “notes” made by folks like this need to be written up in the form of articles, sometimes even with the most eminent and highly respected authors, having errors or potentially misleading information corrected. This all takes a lot of time, and like preservation schemes, there’s only so many volunteers…..

Anyone ever trying to make sense of much of my own notes over the years would end up with a Herculean task!!!

I have “stuff” among my own “stuff” which was the work of a couple of long-departed, but very knowledgable persons. One lot is neat little index cards, the rest is random material which makes little obvious sense!

[Lambeg man]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Many of the “notes” made by folks like this need to be written up in the form of articles, sometimes even with the most eminent and highly respected authors, having errors or potentially misleading information corrected. This all takes a lot of time, and like preservation schemes, there’s only so many volunteers…..

As you say JHB, volunteers are thin on the ground or have been unable to visit Dublin. In respect of someone's personal notes, I was passed some of 'Mac' Arnold's material and that took a bit of deciphering. In respect of the IRRS staff, I think Mr. Cooney has done a sterling job posting up all the photographs that he has done in recent months.

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

As you say JHB, volunteers are thin on the ground or have been unable to visit Dublin. In respect of someone's personal notes, I was passed some of 'Mac' Arnold's material and that took a bit of deciphering. In respect of the IRRS staff, I think Mr. Cooney has done a sterling job posting up all the photographs that he has done in recent months.

Indeed - the more photos, the better, and scanned and improved where necessary too. Covid has of course meant that visits to the IRRS to browse anything at all, let alone conduct detailed research, are not currently possible. Let's look forward to the times when all can reopen safely!

[seagoebox]

Staying on the thread but "off NCC plates topic" I agree with previous comments about researching and publishing based on material in the IRRS archive. Bob Clements kept a travelling diary right up to the early 1970's  detailing not only locomotives and numbers but train workings along with fantastic details  about drivers and other railway staff. Those 1000-odd closely typed A4 pages are a phenomenal resource, match up a couple of his diary pages with his own pictures (which Ciaran Cooney can work his magic on) they would make a fantastic addition to every issue of the "Journal". All it takes are volunteers !

[leslie10646]

12 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Why are they not being published by the IRRS?

Well, Sir, a lot of it has been published by the IRRS.

It's no secret, you only had to go to a Model Railway Exhibition at Bangor, Raheny or Blackrock to see (AND buy) the digitised books of Russell's NCC track diagrams and NCC Signalling diagrams. Still available - I'll provide you with the details!

As for NCR3 - that is MY FAULT. The manuscript is an arm's length from me. It hasn't been finished because when I asked (on a RPSI e-mail) about two years ago - less than twenty people stated an interest. Not the response you want when you're contemplating a £5-10,000 plus up front cost.

Russell covered the technical aspects of the railway at a fairly high level - as was typical in a David and Charles Railway History of the period when it was written. Since then, some of the material HAS been covered at very high level by experts in their respective fields.

However, I am exploring ways of getting the "book" out there and the "Signal Cabin" above has given me another idea .......

That said, it won't help you with this particular subject - the goods rolling stock chapter is just ten, double-spaced, pages and includes no lists of wagon numbers - merely how many of each type the railway had at various times.

I have been through Russell's material in the Archive and I don't remember seeing greater detail on wagon info - I may be wrong!

By the way, I agree with the Man from Seagoe that given two / three lifetimes a "volunteer" could go through Big Bob's diaries and make something of them - so in case there is reincarnation, maybe one of you would volunteer, assuming that The Almighty agrees! Thinking about it, there can't be reincarnation, as otherwise bob would have done it himself! They are fascinating, but like NCC wagon lists - of interest to maybe a hundred people on the planet.

Dinner's ready, I'll go before someone sends a hit squad to do away with me!

Leslie

 

 

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Well, Sir, a lot of it has been published by the IRRS.

It's no secret, you only had to go to a Model Railway Exhibition at Bangor, Raheny or Blackrock to see (AND buy) the digitised books of Russell's NCC track diagrams and NCC Signalling diagrams. Still available - I'll provide you with the details!

As for NCR3 - that is MY FAULT. The manuscript is an arm's length from me. It hasn't been finished because when I asked (on a RPSI e-mail) about two years ago - less than twenty people stated an interest. Not the response you want when you're contemplating a £5-10,000 plus up front cost.

Russell covered the technical aspects of the railway at a fairly high level - as was typical in a David and Charles Railway History of the period when it was written. Since then, some of the material HAS been covered at very high level by experts in their respective fields.

However, I am exploring ways of getting the "book" out there and the "Signal Cabin" above has given me another idea .......

That said, it won't help you with this particular subject - the goods rolling stock chapter is just ten, double-spaced, pages and includes no lists of wagon numbers - merely how many of each type the railway had at various times.

I have been through Russell's material in the Archive and I don't remember seeing greater detail on wagon info - I may be wrong!

By the way, I agree with the Man from Seagoe that given two / three lifetimes a "volunteer" could go through Big Bob's diaries and make something of them - so in case there is reincarnation, maybe one of you would volunteer, assuming that The Almighty agrees! Thinking about it, there can't be reincarnation, as otherwise bob would have done it himself! They are fascinating, but like NCC wagon lists - of interest to maybe a hundred people on the planet.

Dinner's ready, I'll go before someone sends a hit squad to do away with me!

Leslie

Once the reincarnation thing is sorted out, and in the next life each week has nine days, each year 17 months, and each day 32 hours, I will place my name forward to volunteer on trawling such material!

[airfixfan]

Would be glad to help 2 JHB

[leslie10646]

A fact-let I came across while playing around with one of Henry Casserley's photos. Despite the antiquity, I think the plate says LMS NCC, wagon 580. Actually, the BNCR ones had strapped corners, rather than a plate like here - perhaps it's a rebuild. I have a Lance King slide which shows a two plank of great antiquity and I'll post it when I find it.

This is a corner of the plate (which shows a 4-4-0 at Portrush.

If one keeps one's eyes open there are masses of little clues like this in photos of "other things".

Must get to bed - the day has been too exciting - I still have a business!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

A fact-let I came across while playing around with one of Henry Casserley's photos. Despite the antiquity, I think the plate says LMS NCC, wagon 580. Actually, the BNCR ones had strapped corners, rather than a plate like here - perhaps it's a rebuild. I have a Lance King slide which shows a two plank of great antiquity and I'll post it when I find it.

This is a corner of the plate (which shows a 4-4-0 at Portrush.

If one keeps one's eyes open there are masses of little clues like this in photos of "other things".

Must get to bed - the day has been too exciting - I still have a business!

That’s where I pick up a HUGE amount of info - examining details on old photos. Very often it’s a case of “never mind the “what a great photo!” stuff", but examining nooks, crannies and details within that photograph. 

In terms of wagon plates, many old BNCR and MRNCC plates would be replaced with LMSNCC ones. A wagon with the latter on it might well have been built by the LMS NCC, but equally either of its predecessors. And there were two styles of NCC lettering on those purely within LMS days, too.

Without seeing the whole wagon, my money would be on it being of BNCR origin and the low number would suggest that as almost a certainty.

PS: see if you can enlarge the axle box cover - I suspect it may say “BNCR” on it.

Like the BCDR, CBSCR and DSER, the NCC wagon designs were for the most part entirely unlike anything else, and nothing like the “big” companies.

Edited February 4, 2022 by jhb171achill

[seagoebox]

[airfixfan]

Wonder what JHB thinks of this collection?

[jhb171achill]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:28 PM, airfixfan said:

Wonder what JHB thinks of this collection?

JHB is highly impressed with it, I am reliably informed!

 

[DoctorPan]

 

Oops wrong thread

Edited February 9, 2022 by DoctorPan
can't read

[Dun Aucht]

From my research notes

 

LMS D2073, Lot 1325, High sided Goods Wagon NCC, similar to LMS D2072, Diagram Book Page 12E, Drawing No.13/3439. Wartime replacement built by the LNER at Doncaster.

Although reference is made similar to D2072 which was a wartime diagram covering 500 wagon built between Derby and Wolverton during 1942/43, Lot No. 1322, running nos. 415300 – 415799, R. J. Essery identifies this diagram as being similar to D1892 but built with narrower planks. The point being that the D1892 wagons had a steel underframe, whereas the NCC had a wooden underframe. The NCC version did have disc wheels and oil journals. The last survivors had cut down ends courtesy of the UTA. One did survive at Whitehead. Wagon diagram is shown in 'An Illustrated History of LMS Wagons – Volume 1', page 80. 

The High Sided Goods Wagon did not have the rectangular NCC Wagon plates. Instead they just had an oval Doncaster makers plate with the date and LMS Lot No. on it. It was fixed to the solebar underneath the door. Some of these wagons were cut down at the ends and sides by the UTA, possibly for use at Courtaulds.

 

LMS D2074, Lot 1326, Goods Van NCC, Diagram Book Page 9M, Drawing No. 13/3447. Wartime replacement built by the LNER at Doncaster. NCC grounded body number 2475 had a build date of 1943.

Wagon diagram is shown in 'An Illustrated History of LMS Wagons – Volume 1' on page 56 asFigure 40. R.J. Essery asserts the wagon as being similar to Midland Railway wagon diagram D363 and refers to the plates 194 and 195 on page 135 of Midland Railway Wagons Volume 1. The wagon diagram is shown on page 131 of the same volume, but the two plates show wagons with the same arrangement of side stanchions as the NCC version built to MR Lots 938 & 941.

One of these lots was for fitted vehicles. The earlier MR diagram was rate 10 tons as opposed to the NCC version at 12 tons. The D363 is also one foot shorter and obviously narrower. There are differences in wagon height, wheel size, rail to top of floor height as well as gauge and the detail differences obviously warranted a new drawing. The drawing from the diagram book shows the wagon with 4 torpedo vents, but photographic evidence of the wagons as running on the NCC/UTA rail network contradicts this. The NCC running numbers were 2401 – 2500 and the style of wagon plate was the LMS D pattern, not the usual NCC oblong wagon plate. Some of these vans may have been fitted or piped by the UTA for use in service trains for parcels traffic. Such a vehicle is shown in a train at Portadown in 1964 on page 52 of 'The Steaming Sixties – No.11 The Ulster Transport Authority', Irwell Press, Clophill Bedfordshire, 2015, ISBN: 978-1-906919-77-1.

Both of these differed from usual NCC practice as the W irons were inside the solebars, rather than fixed on the outside. The journals were standard LMS oil journals.

 

[jhb171achill]

Great info, thanks!

The "cutting down" of sides was done in early NIR days to assist track gangs in shovelling ballast out of them onto the track. Primitive methods back then!

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Great info, thanks!

The "cutting down" of sides was done in early NIR days to assist track gangs in shovelling ballast out of them onto the track. Primitive methods back then!

Overloading particularly spent ballast is likely to be a reason, ballast were traditionally 2-3 plank as much as a result of the high density of the material as making life easy for the gangers.

British Rail cut slots in the sides of 27Ton Ore Tippler Wagons to avoid overloading when they were converted to "Spoil Wagons" to transport spent ballast during the 1980s.

Reminds me of an incident on a construction site for a large factory in the Mid-West during the 1990s, the engineers were getting dragged over the coals for having used too much crushed stone fill,  the bean counters having seriously underestimated the density of the material.

[WRENNEIRE]

Latest one for the collection
Will be given black & white when time allows
Seems to be less time when one washes the shovel, dont know why?

[Dun Aucht]

Photo of the grounded NCC wartime 12T van. A lot of railway vans were sold off to farmers who used them all over the country. There were still a fair few in the Sperrins in the mid 1990s. Most have decayed and since been burned, the surviving metal being sold for scrap.

[bufferstop]

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/74c390738486581e27670828fac76ee5/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/bimonthly-auction-of-general-railwayana-a-wide-select-lot-383/

I know one or two collect these. This is on the GCR auction this coming Saturday, so postage and possible custom charges would have to be taken into account