Mysterious Guard’s Van

[jhb171achill]

Can anyone throw any light on what this is? The picture is taken at Newcastle West, apparently c.1953 and is on page 46 of “Chasing the Flying Snail” by Anthony Burges.

Appears to have van doors (?) at the far end?

[RichL]

Looks more to me like it was double ended and the entrance at the far end has been boarded over.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, RichL said:

Looks more to me like it was double ended and the entrance at the far end has been boarded over.

Indeed, right enough..... I wonder why?

New one to me!

[Mayner]

One end converted to a van possibly for sundries traffic on a light traffic branch line. Purpose built "road vans" were used by the West Cork, NCC, SLNCR & T&C  in Ireland and the LSWR in England, though they tended to look like a conventional goods van with a veranda or guards compartment at one end. Interestingly the guards steps and grab rails appear to have been removed from the "van" end of the converted ex-GSWR brake. Traditionally MGWR goods brakes included a drovers compartment and a cupola in the style of an American drovers caboose.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Mayner

[minister_for_hardship]

No duckets either, but oddly still retains side lamps and perhaps the stove as well. I assume it still functioned as a brake van?

Edited April 18, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

Yes, there's a chimney, thus a stove. I'd say it must be in use as a brake van still, otherwise I would have thought they block both ends and out double doors in the middle - or use the chassis for a rebuild maybe.

[minister_for_hardship]

Strange, I'm trying to justify this hybrid. 

If you want to bring sundries down some branch, attach a closed wagon. It's not like there was a shortage of those. It would take less time to load or unload than fumbling around inside this thing.

[Galteemore]

Reminds me a little of the altered GW ‘Toads’ used for PW work, where a verandah was similarly boxed in.

[Midland Man]

I know this is not about the point but there is a full size brake van beside the road between Cork - Clonakilty. Has any one else seen it? By the way is there any pics of the side of the brake van as I beleive that one was used on the tramway in cork in the 50s/60s until closure.

[minister_for_hardship]

17 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

I know this is not about the point but there is a full size brake van beside the road between Cork - Clonakilty. Has any one else seen it? By the way is there any pics of the side of the brake van as I beleive that one was used on the tramway in cork in the 50s/60s until closure.

It's one of the pieces of rolling stock left over from the ill fated GSRPS Mallow project.

Edited April 19, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Strange, I'm trying to justify this hybrid. 

If you want to bring sundries down some branch, attach a closed wagon. It's not like there was a shortage of those. It would take less time to load or unload than fumbling around inside this thing.

Its possible that the Newcastle Van may have been used to carry mails or parcel traffic. It looks suspiciously like a conversion of a standard GSWR 10T outside brake.

 

It looks like there is a set of side doors in the luggage compartment, as the "door" panel appears to be proud of the main body framing and planking.

The LSWR vans appear to have been set up with separate guards and goods compartments with a connecting doorway. Some of the LSWR road vans had single others had two balconies

 

The GNR(I) built a pair of 25t 6 brakes with "Luggage Compartments" for the steeply graded Newry-Armagh and Keady lines. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Midland Man said:

I know this is not about the point but there is a full size brake van beside the road between Cork - Clonakilty. Has any one else seen it? By the way is there any pics of the side of the brake van as I beleive that one was used on the tramway in cork in the 50s/60s until closure.

That one's a standard CIE 20T guard's van, as used everywhere. No doubt the locals will tell us that "it was built specially for Kinsale" or something! There used to also be a heavily-altered old six-wheel coach there too, and a corrugated open wagon - are they still there too?

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Strange, I'm trying to justify this hybrid. 

If you want to bring sundries down some branch, attach a closed wagon. It's not like there was a shortage of those. It would take less time to load or unload than fumbling around inside this thing.

Exactly!

Boxing in one end almost seems more bizarre than boxing in both!

Mind you, it brings one issue into focus: even as Inchicore was churning out standard 20T and 30T vans in abundance, the occasional oddball or one-off was still kicking about, like the sole-remaining Timoleague & Courtmacsherry item of rolling stock, guard's van 5J, which wasn't withdrawn, I believe, until 1960. At first, I thought the above beast might be something similar, but as other say, it's probably an ex-GSWR one.

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Strange, I'm trying to justify this hybrid. 

If you want to bring sundries down some branch, attach a closed wagon. It's not like there was a shortage of those. It would take less time to load or unload than fumbling around inside this thing.

Hi,

I see @Mayner has already replied, but I was going to add that brake vans with side doors were not that uncommon in England, and were usually known as Road Vans. Their purpose was carriage of consignments too small to warrant a whole wagon.

The LSWR built some to what became SR Diagram 1541, one is preserved on the Bluebell Railway. The NER also used quite a few, I believe. The GWR, however, had only two converted from existing vans, which were restricted use, one of which was allocated to Cirencester.

Chris Leigh modelled a variety of Road Vans in Model Rail December 2018.

All the best,

Mark

[Midland Man]

Last time I was the (2018) there was only the guards van. When all of this is over I going to buy a camera a photograph all thing railway like Navan and the Tara's mines as they will be gone in about 11 months to a year and a half.

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That one's a standard CIE 20T guard's van, as used everywhere. No doubt the locals will tell us that "it was built specially for Kinsale" or something! There used to also be a heavily-altered old six-wheel coach there too, and a corrugated open wagon - are they still there too?

Last time I wa there 2018 there wa only the brake van.

pity

MM 

[minister_for_hardship]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

That one's a standard CIE 20T guard's van, as used everywhere. No doubt the locals will tell us that "it was built specially for Kinsale" or something! There used to also be a heavily-altered old six-wheel coach there too, and a corrugated open wagon - are they still there too?

The six wheeler was moved to a private site near what used be Farrangalway station. I think the open and the Ruston are still mouldering at Halfway along with a double deck CIE bus slowly falling apart.

[Midland Man]

Any pics?

MM

[jhb171achill]

I think the Sligo Leitrim had at least one "road van" type also. Must investigate - I have a pic somewhere. The NCC narrow gauge used them, especially on the erstwhile Ballymena and Larne.

[Galteemore]

Here’s some from my dad’s collection. Think this is at Collooney post closure. One is more of a drovers van.

[Midland Man]

Reminded me a BCDR brake van

 

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

Any pics?

MM

Not at its current site, no.

Edited April 19, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Lambeg man]

5 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Reminded me a BCDR brake van

Hi MM,

You are correct as it appears ALL the BCDR goods brake vans were of this design.

Above: Original side profile (Copyright - Colourpoint Books)

Below: Drawing which shows the later side profile with revised double doors (Copyright - UFTM)

They had the windows on both ends. See Des Coakham's 'BCDR' book (the Colourpoint publication) for a photograph.

 

[Mayner]

Besides the Timoleague & Courtmacsharry brake 5J the CBSCR had a pair of "Covered Goods Vans with Guards Compartments" at least one of which 5B survived into the 1950. There is a photo of 5J & 5B in Ernie Shepherds CBSCR book although similar in general size and general arrangement to the County Down vans the West Cork vans appear shorter on Irish Standard wagon underframes and had differing side door and guards compartment arrangements. Both had outside framing with diagonal bracing, the CBSCR vans looked very much like a standard goods van with sliding doors and a guards compartment with duckets at one end while the Timoleague van had a more guards van appearance with full length footboards, double side opening doors and no guards ducket. The CBSCR also had some massive looking 6w 10T goods brake vans, with heavy outside framing similar to the standard Irish Covered Wagon, with a single guards door and ducket apparently at one end and no end windows.

The BNCR/NCC goods brakes looked like a shortened version of the standard Northern Counties covered van with a balcony at one end though no duckets. There are photos and drawings of the Northern Counties vans in the May & Nov 2017 editions of New Irish Lines archive https://newirishlines.org/archive/.

The Midland does not appear to have built road vans built some odd looking 20T 6 wheelers in 1912 with guards compartments with raised cupolas at each end and a drovers compartment in the middle.  A diagram exists but I have not seen a photo of these odd looking vans.

 

[David Holman]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:04 PM, Galteemore said:

Here’s some from my dad’s collection. Think this is at Collooney post closure. One is more of a drovers van.

Sligo van 2 and 3, possibly qualify as the shortest mixed train of all time. Drovers compartment, goods compartment and guard's area.

Edited April 21, 2020 by David Holman

[Angus]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:04 PM, Galteemore said:

Here’s some from my dad’s collection.

Hi Galteemore, 

Thanks for those, they're nice detailed views of three vans on my build list.

Most useful!

[David Holman]

Couldn't resist posting a pic of my 7mm Sligo van. Built in plasticard, using the Alphagraphix card kit as the drawing with their chassis underneath. All that nice, heavy, square strapping made it an ideal candidate for using micro strip.

[2996 Victor]

36 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Couldn't resist posting a pic of my 7mm Sligo van. Built in plasticard, using the Alphagraphix card kit as the drawing with their chassis underneath. All that nice, heavy, square strapping made it an ideal candidate for using micro strip.

Absolutely fabulous work!