Mount Bellew, MGWR

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

Being new to the Forum, I'm going need to ask some obviously "newbie" questions for which I sincerely apologise. Also, if this should be in another part of the forum, Mods please feel free to move it!

By way of explanation, although I've had a more than passing interest in Ireland's railways for longer than I care to remember, I've only just begun to think about a layout. At the same time, I'm also busily building rolling stock for a Cambrian Railways layout and a projected GWR layout depicting Stogumber Station on the West Somerset Railway, so I'm busy! My chosen period is 1900-1905, with a year or two's leeway either side, and this is the case here. Don't ask me why, I just like to keep my models contemporary with each other. I also model in 4mm/1ft scale, my English and Welsh projects being to EM Gauge Society Standards.

My planned layout, therefore, will be Midland Great Western Railway, 1900-1905, 4mm/1ft scale running on 21mm gauge track built to EMGS standards.

I have several books on order: Ernest Shepherd's "Illustrated History", Jonathan Beaumont's "Rails to Achill", and Stephen Johnson & Alan O'Rourke's "Modelling Irish Railways" for starters.

My questions at the moment are:

1. References: Are there any other useful books that I should have in my bookcase?
2. Drawings: I'm happy scatchbuilding, and particularly enjoy building wagons. I understand that there are some drawings in the Shepherd book - are they accurate? I also see the IRRS offers a compendium of MGWR wagon drawings - at £45, is this likely to be a useful if expensive investment? What about structure drawings - station buildings, signal boxes, goods sheds?
3. Liveries: I've found some references to MGWR liveries here on the Forum already which are very useful - thank you to all those who've posted. However, I thought I'd read somewhere that goods stock lettering was a pale cream, but can't now seem to find that - am I delusional? Also, building paint schemes - cherry red and pale cream/stone? Presumably, window frames white?
4. Available models: So far, I've found a few possibles. As I mentioned above, I enjoy scratchbuilding, and also kit-building, however, I'm not terribly confident with etched brass..... (ham-fisted springs to mind!). What are the options for locomotives, carriages and wagons. For instance, the SSM MGWR covered goods wagons - are they suitable for my time period? And the JM Design horsebox and fish/meat wagons - how "easy" are they to assemble (bearing in mind they're etched brass!)? Are there any other suppliers that have suitable locos, carriages and wagons?
5. Track: As mentioned above, I intend to go with 21mm gauge, so who should I be contacting for track gauges, axles, back-to-back gauges etc?

Apologies once again for the "newbie" questions and many, many thanks in advance for any information!

Stay safe and stay well!

All the best,

Mark

Edited May 7, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[Midland Man]

He there 

MGWR is one thing I most love. I started with the same books only rails trough Achill was a library book I have my own copy. As one of a nice amount of people interested in MGWR I have to say go to Irish model shows as they will be the only place to get info. The IRRS have a HQ in London an soon Manchestser but the Dublin one is the best by far as most of the documents are there. If it's going to be not a real location Oakworth station looks like a typical Midland design and has fetures that are in Moyvally and Hill of Down. Of it's going to be a real location try streamtown rail station as there is very little infrastructure to model an two bridges at each end (one went but I do not know when) Loco stock will be quite hard but there are kits but will need mids to the boiler and tender (on some occasions) If I were you I would do O gauge as it will be a lot fun when completed and there is tones of advice around as well the modeling community in England. The era will be hard and will have to be well studeied. My moto when studying is seeming is believing as you need proof to model something like this and the rivet counting lot will say it's unrealistic. So then good luck.

MM

[Galteemore]

1. This is useful https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=irrs+mgwr+pictures&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5ytyWjfXoAhVHXhUIHUoQCsQQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=375&bih=553&dpr=2#imgrc=UXCO1gXLMirpRM

2. The MGWR drawings from the IRRS are good. I used them to build this. Not the best model but one of my first scratch builds.

4. Alphagraphix have some good MGWR models in card which make good coloured drawings for scratch builds.

[Noel]

7 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

1. This is useful https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=irrs+mgwr+pictures&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5ytyWjfXoAhVHXhUIHUoQCsQQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=375&bih=553&dpr=2#imgrc=UXCO1gXLMirpRM

2. The MGWR drawings from the IRRS are good. I used them to build this. Not the best model but one of my first scratch builds.

4. Alphagraphix have some good MGWR models in card which make good coloured drawings for scratch builds.

That is delicious. Reeks of atmosphere and times gone bye

[Midland Man]

Lovely model

wonder what colur they were in midland days. The wagon were black and I do think they may have been painted white.

[murrayec]

Welcome Mark

Books;-

Irish Broad Gauge Carriages by Desmond Coakham ISBN 1-85780-175-X

Etched Loco Construction by Ian Rice ISBN 0 906867 86 X

Locomotive Kit Chassis Construction in 4mm by Ian Rice ISBN 1 874103 10 0

Models;-

As you have seen yourself, JM Designs, Studio Scale Models and add Worsley Works to your list - they do scratch aid kits for when you get more adventurous.

Here is a link to the horse box build, it's a different scale but will give the idea;-

Livery;-

@jhb171achill is your man on this one - fire him the questions and he should be able to help.

Track;-

http://marcway.net

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/

Have supplied stuff for 21mm track to some of the chaps in the past- try them

 

Eoin

 

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

1. Liveries: I've found some references to MGWR liveries here on the Forum already which are very useful - thank you to all those who've posted. However, I thought I'd read somewhere that goods stock lettering was a pale cream, but can't now seem to find that - am I delusional? Also, building paint schemes - cherry red and pale cream/stone? Presumably, window frames white?

Hello Victor, and welcome to here - you will find much help with every aspect of Irish railway matters here.

Regarding the above, for the period you have chosen, yes, station colour scheme was as you say. Goods stock lettering was a pale cream colour too. In the period you have chosen, goods stock was a very dark grey, bordering on "weathered-black" looking when old and tatty, but cleaner when newer. After probably about 1910-1915 it was a more "wagon grey" colour; LMS wagon grey is a good standard for this, and indeed for most Irish railway companies prior to 1960, when a somewhat lighter shade appeared.

Locomotives will be a green colour, perhaps marginally darker than Isle of Man loco green, with carriages painted a mid-to-dark brown, perhaps a slight shade darker than 1950s British fitted wagons. Lining was gold on carriages, black and white on locomotives.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

He there 

MGWR is one thing I most love. I started with the same books only rails trough Achill was a library book I have my own copy. As one of a nice amount of people interested in MGWR I have to say go to Irish model shows as they will be the only place to get info. The IRRS have a HQ in London an soon Manchestser but the Dublin one is the best by far as most of the documents are there. If it's going to be not a real location Oakworth station looks like a typical Midland design and has fetures that are in Moyvally and Hill of Down. Of it's going to be a real location try streamtown rail station as there is very little infrastructure to model an two bridges at each end (one went but I do not know when) Loco stock will be quite hard but there are kits but will need mids to the boiler and tender (on some occasions) If I were you I would do O gauge as it will be a lot fun when completed and there is tones of advice around as well the modeling community in England. The era will be hard and will have to be well studeied. My moto when studying is seeming is believing as you need proof to model something like this and the rivet counting lot will say it's unrealistic. So then good luck.

MM

Hi MM,

many thanks for your thoughts, they're much appreciated! It's great to know that there is an MGWR community, as that hopefully helps with the circulation of good information. I'd love to come over to Dublin, and hope to in the near future! In the meantime, I'll probably need to rely on the t'internet, even without the current Covid-19 situation.

I've not really decided on whether to model a real location or create a fictional station; it'll probably be the latter due to space and time constraints, but I'm always open to suggestions for small wayside or terminal stations. Interesting that Oakworth looks like an MGWR station, though! Again, due to space, I'll be sticking with 4mm, although I do appreciate that it's possible to create a convincing 7mm layout in a relatively small space. I realise I model a slightly difficult era, but no pain, no gain as they say!

Thanks again for your kind words.

All the best,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

1. This is useful https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=irrs+mgwr+pictures&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5ytyWjfXoAhVHXhUIHUoQCsQQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=375&bih=553&dpr=2#imgrc=UXCO1gXLMirpRM

2. The MGWR drawings from the IRRS are good. I used them to build this. Not the best model but one of my first scratch builds.

4. Alphagraphix have some good MGWR models in card which make good coloured drawings for scratch builds.

Hi Galteemore,

many thanks for your post - the link is extremely useful.

The brake van is great, and its good to know the IRRS drawings are a good source of information, and although the Compendium seems quite expensive I think I'll be investing in it before long.

I've had a look for the Alphagraphix kits, but haven't been able to find them! I'll try looking again.....

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

[Andy Cundick]

Scalefour Society do 21mm gauge back to back and track gauges.21mm gauge w irons are done by SSM and Prickley Pear. Driving wheels Alan Gibson with homemade axles(1/8" steel bar hacksaw then file in drill chuck),other wheels Gibson with homemade axles(1.5 or 2mm steel rod with pin points done in drill with grinding block).Its also a good idea to subscribe to New Irish Lines.Its surprising what there is out there i've just finished the Judith Edge kit for NCC No22 which is trundling up and down Valencia as happy as a sand boy still not quite sure how she would of got there and am now putting the finishing touches to one of the DNGR tanks which i've had half built for while all good fun Andy.

[2996 Victor]

28 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Welcome Mark

Books;-

Irish Broad Gauge Carriages by Desmond Coakham ISBN 1-85780-175-X

Etched Loco Construction by Ian Rice ISBN 0 906867 86 X

Locomotive Kit Chassis Construction in 4mm by Ian Rice ISBN 1 874103 10 0

Models;-

As you have seen yourself, JM Designs, Studio Scale Models and add Worsley Works to your list - they do scratch aid kits for when you get more adventurous.

Here is a link to the horse box build, it's a different scale but will give the idea;-

Livery;-

@jhb171achill is your man on this one - fire him the questions and he should be able to help.

Track;-

http://marcway.net

https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/

Have supplied stuff for 21mm track to some of the chaps in the past- try them

 

Eoin

 

 

Hi Eoin,

many thanks for your post - the book list is very helpful, thank you. I've had a few of Iain Rice's books in the past, all of which were very erudite, but never got as far as locomotive building. Perhaps the time has come.....! I wasn't aware that Worsley Works did etches for the MGWR - again, I'll have to have a look at their website!

I've seen references to Marcway supplying bespoke 5'3" track, and they're not a million miles from me. I've also seen C&L's stand at a couple of shows.

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hello Victor, and welcome to here - you will find much help with every aspect of Irish railway matters here.

Regarding the above, for the period you have chosen, yes, station colour scheme was as you say. Goods stock lettering was a pale cream colour too. In the period you have chosen, goods stock was a very dark grey, bordering on "weathered-black" looking when old and tatty, but cleaner when newer. After probably about 1910-1915 it was a more "wagon grey" colour; LMS wagon grey is a good standard for this, and indeed for most Irish railway companies prior to 1960, when a somewhat lighter shade appeared.

Locomotives will be a green colour, perhaps marginally darker than Isle of Man loco green, with carriages painted a mid-to-dark brown, perhaps a slight shade darker than 1950s British fitted wagons. Lining was gold on carriages, black and white on locomotives.

Hi jhb,

many thanks for your kind words of welcome!

Thanks for your confirmation of liveries, that's a good start from my point of view - as soon as I can pin down some appropriate drawings I can make a start on a wagon or two - locos and coaches will probably have to wait a bit longer! The dark grey of the goods stock is interesting, would you say that the colour equates with the Great Western's goods stock grey, which is often said to be among the darkest of greys used, or would it have been darker still? What about lettering sizes and fonts?

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

11 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

Scalefour Society do 21mm gauge back to back and track gauges.21mm gauge w irons are done by SSM and Prickley Pear. Driving wheels Alan Gibson with homemade axles(1/8" steel bar hacksaw then file in drill chuck),other wheels Gibson with homemade axles(1.5 or 2mm steel rod with pin points done in drill with grinding block).Its also a good idea to subscribe to New Irish Lines.Its surprising what there is out there i've just finished the Judith Edge kit for NCC No22 which is trundling up and down Valencia as happy as a sand boy still not quite sure how she would of got there and am now putting the finishing touches to one of the DNGR tanks which i've had half built for while all good fun Andy.

Hi Andy,

many thanks for your post - the availability of gauges from the Scalefour Society is great news, I think they sell items to non-members..... I've only recently heard of Prickley Pear, so will need to investigate their product range, and I need to delve into SSM's product range, too!

I'll look into New Irish Lines, as you suggest, as any source of info is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks again, and very best regards,

Mark

[Midland Man]

Hey @2996 Victor

Go to the legend that is Basebord Dave a call. He make the best model rail Bords in the country and is well worth a visit. He has a service on this form and if you want the best track pm him. I don't know if he send to England but he has been reveiwed on Hornby magazine.

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

 The dark grey of the goods stock is interesting, would you say that the colour equates with the Great Western's goods stock grey, which is often said to be among the darkest of greys used, or would it have been darker still? What about lettering sizes and fonts?

 

Yes, very much so. In terms of fonts, the lettering "M G W R" tended to be one plank high - a good bit smaller than railway company's initials on many British lines, or one the GNR or GSR here. Sometimes it was "M G W", which on a van or wagon with an opening middle door or gate involved " G" on the left, and "W" and the wagon number on the right, e.g. "M  G  W   3451". Other times, "M G W R" was all on the left, with the wagon number on the right. Some goods brake vans seem, at some stage anyway, and probably in your era, to have been a mid green of some sort, but I have yet to establish details. Lettering on one photo at least that I've seen appears to be in black, implying a light shade. Mind you, other vans were clearly grey, so I would tend to stick with that. The font was plain - pics in books will show this.

[Galteemore]

29 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Galteemore,

many thanks for your post - the link is extremely useful.

The brake van is great, and its good to know the IRRS drawings are a good source of information, and although the Compendium seems quite expensive I think I'll be investing in it before long.

I've had a look for the Alphagraphix kits, but haven't been able to find them! I'll try looking again.....

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

No dramas Mark. I’m a 36.75 modeller myself and have had a turnout made by Marcway. New Irish Lines is brilliant and the editor Alan O’Rourke is a very helpful bloke. He has already given me a lot of tips! You won’t find much about Alphagraphix online - it’s mail order mostly and a few shows. Here’s a list of their card kits for 7mm -easily scaled down to 4mm.....

David 

 

 

[2996 Victor]

14 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Hey @2996 Victor

Go to the legend that is Basebord Dave a call. He make the best model rail Bords in the country and is well worth a visit. He has a service on this form and if you want the best track pm him. I don't know if he send to England but he has been reveiwed on Hornby magazine.

Thanks, MM, I'll look him up!

Much appreciated,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

14 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, very much so. In terms of fonts, the lettering "M G W R" tended to be one plank high - a good bit smaller than railway company's initials on many British lines, or one the GNR or GSR here. Sometimes it was "M G W", which on a van or wagon with an opening middle door or gate involved " G" on the left, and "W" and the wagon number on the right, e.g. "M  G  W   3451". Other times, "M G W R" was all on the left, with the wagon number on the right. Some goods brake vans seem, at some stage anyway, and probably in your era, to have been a mid green of some sort, but I have yet to establish details. Lettering on one photo at least that I've seen appears to be in black, implying a light shade. Mind you, other vans were clearly grey, so I would tend to stick with that. The font was plain - pics in books will show this.

Many thanks, jhb - the shade of grey used and the size and position of lettering is great info! And particularly interesting are the green brake vans!

Thanks again and best regards,

Mark

[Midland Man]

36 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks, MM, I'll look him up!

Much appreciated,

Mark

Hey there click here @Dave He really helped me with my own layout and all his work is quite stunning. Hope you all like.

MM

[2996 Victor]

46 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

No dramas Mark. I’m a 36.75 modeller myself and have had a turnout made by Marcway. New Irish Lines is brilliant and the editor Alan O’Rourke is a very helpful bloke. He has already given me a lot of tips! You won’t find much about Alphagraphix online - it’s mail order mostly and a few shows. Here’s a list of their card kits for 7mm -easily scaled down to 4mm.....

David 

 

 

Hi Galteemore,

thanks for the lead on Alphagraphix - I'll try to seek them out! Good news about Marcway!

Thanks again and best regards,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

The Alphagraphix stuff does make a nice low-cost option, and contains many unusual prototypes, as well as things that aren't otherwise available much.

However, beware of liveries - many are inaccurate, some considerably so! Not knocking it though, as I say some nice stuff.

Probably the solitary company left on the entire planet that does EVERYTHING by "snail mail" and has no website  or email address!

[Galteemore]

11 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The Alphagraphix stuff does make a nice low-cost option, and contains many unusual prototypes, as well as things that aren't otherwise available much.

However, beware of liveries - many are inaccurate, some considerably so! Not knocking it though, as I say some nice stuff.

Probably the solitary company left on the entire planet that does EVERYTHING by "snail mail" and has no website  or email address!

Oh we have a smorgasbord of such suppliers in 7mm, JHB! Alphagraphix has an email address so is quite cutting edge by comparison with some ! His catalogue is £2 but you get £1 off your first order. JHB is right about the liveries but perhaps a display stand full of GSR grey might not be so appealing....
 

 It’s all part of the charm  .

Edited April 19, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

A veritable treasure chest indeed!

[Mayner]

Hi Victor

Its great to see the growing interest in the Midland, perhaps its getting to the stage for setting up a MGWR modelling circle or what American modellers call a Special Interest Group (SIG). My Grandfather (who passed away long before my time) was a Midland driver and have been collecting information/attempting to model the Midland over the past 40 years. I was mainly interested in modelling the CIE period but have been creeping backwards towards the 192s-30s, the complex MGWR liveries of the Victoria and Edwardian eras are far beyond my painting ability.

While there is good coverage in terms of carriage and wagon drawings for the 1900-1905 period there is a serious gap in locomotive drawings for that period as the Broadstone locomotive general arrangement drawings appear to have been mislaid or destroyed and no diagram appears to exist of the 7-12 Class 2-4-0 mail engines of 1889-90 or of the  K Class 2-4-0 of the 1890s in their as built condition with flyaway cab.

Tim Cramer published a number of drawings on Midland Locos and 6 wheel coaching stock in GSR/CIE condition in his Irish Miscellany series in Model Railway Magazine during the 1970s, the late Padraic O'Cuimin one of the recognised authorities on the Midland published the Baronial Lines of the MGWR a history of the Loughrea & Ballinrobe Branches and a number of IRRS papers on MGW carriage and wagon stock, together with some large scale (but un-dimmensioned) locomotive and rolling stock drawings.

Tim Cramer's drawings should be adequate for 4mm use and some of the coach drawing overlap with the MGWR general arrangement drawings in the IRRS compendium which are quite faded.

A Beyer Peacock General Arrangement drawing for the D Class 2-4-0s of the 1880s exists in the library of the Manchester Museum of Technology and may be available to the public, I don't know if drawings are available from British museums of locomotives supplied to the Midland, by Avonside, Kitson or North British loco, but a builders photo of the B Class 0-6-0s of the early 1900s is available from the Glasgow Museum of Transport.

In the past I have built models of MGWR locos in plasticard on modified rtr or my own chassis with reasonable results, but later turned to scratchbuilding in brass and eventually designing and producing my own kits. 

There are tutorials on assembling my kits in the JM Design section of the Manufacturers section of the News Group.

The Ks 2-4-0 is sold out, but the etchings for the Horse Box & Meat/Fish Van are available to special order with some of the castings available from Dart Castings in the UK.

The SSM convertible wagon is in whitemetal and  builds into a nice model and is an essential for modelling the MGWR from the early 1890s onwards, SSM also produce a nice whitemetal model of the Irish Standard open wagon which were used by the MGWR from about 1918 onwards.

Jeremy Suter produced very nice whitemetal models of the MGWR open box wagon and Standard Irish covered wagon used by the MGWR in its final years but the Jeremy Suter kits are rare but examples may appear occasionally on e-bay or exhibitions in the UK.

Though expensive and with a long lead time Ultrascale https://www.ultrascale.uk/ are probably the best option for 21mm gauge locomotive and rolling stock wheel sets. The Ultrascale locomotive and rolling stock wheels are superior to similar driving and rolling stock wheels produced by their competitors and are available in P4 and EMF/fine OO profiles. The wheel centers are cast into the nickle silver wheel rims which both eliminates problems with steel wheel rims rusting and working loose, the wheels have a wide boss (contact area) with the axle which both ensures true running and reduces the risk of a wheel moving on its axle, the driving wheels also have a superior shouldered crank pin system.  Alan Gibson wheels are reasonable but I have experienced problems with wheel rims coming adrift and having to Loctite the rim to the center, they have a steel tyre which is likely to rust if exposed to rust during chassis assembly and use 14Ba brass bolts as crankpins as I found the AG steel crankpins had a tendency to "wring" off when tightened.

Gauges and axles are available through the Scalefour society store https://www.scalefour.org/stores/stores.html, Jeremy Suter may be able to assist if contacted through the S4 Society. Living in New Zealand when I use Gibson wheels I obtain 28mm axles from a local supplier.

[jhb171achill]

Midland Great Western Van No. 19, photographed by Senior in 1939. Location unknown.

I am puzzled a bit - presumably there’s an “M” after the number by this stage? It can’t be seen, though, and the thing carries neither “G  S” nor “M G W R”.

I am assuming it’s in Midland markings, as there was no “No.” in front of a number on a GSR-marked vehicle.

Then again, the MGWR didn’t either!

At first I thought it was an SLNCR vehicle, but for that line one would expect the number on the end too, and “SLNC” on the side. And you can see the cast-iron MGWR number plate, though even THAT is not typical!

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

47 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Midland Great Western Van No. 19, photographed by Senior in the 1930s; date and location unknown.

I am puzzled a bit - presumably there’s an “M” after the number by this stage? It can’t be seen, though, and the thing carries neither “G  S” nor “M G W R”.

I am assuming it’s in Midland markings, as there was no “No.” in front of a number on a GSR-marked vehicle.

Then again, the MGWR didn’t either!

At first I thought it was an SLNCR vehicle, but for that line one would expect the number on the end too, and “SLNC” on the side. And you can see the cast-iron MGWR number plate, though even THAT is not typical!

 

Its a MGWR goods brake dating from the 1870s most of which had disappeared following the arrival of the modern 20T vans like Galtemore's model in the early 1920s. The van retains wooden brakeblocks and may be in MGWR green,  LGRP photo 7027 dated 18/7/31 of is No 29  at Broadstone in green livery with MGW lettering between the window and door at cill level  & THIRD branding on the door.

I built a 4mm model from known dimensions many years ago using plasticard and North West stripwood with plasticard cube rivet details, model checked out reasonably well against a drawing by Padraic O'Cuimin but I still need to repair the joint between the balcony end posts and the roof & replace those Kadee couplers with something more in keeping for an irish steam era model.

[2996 Victor]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

Hi Victor

Its great to see the growing interest in the Midland, perhaps its getting to the stage for setting up a MGWR modelling circle or what American modellers call a Special Interest Group (SIG). My Grandfather (who passed away long before my time) was a Midland driver and have been collecting information/attempting to model the Midland over the past 40 years. I was mainly interested in modelling the CIE period but have been creeping backwards towards the 192s-30s, the complex MGWR liveries of the Victoria and Edwardian eras are far beyond my painting ability.

While there is good coverage in terms of carriage and wagon drawings for the 1900-1905 period there is a serious gap in locomotive drawings for that period as the Broadstone locomotive general arrangement drawings appear to have been mislaid or destroyed and no diagram appears to exist of the 7-12 Class 2-4-0 mail engines of 1889-90 or of the  K Class 2-4-0 of the 1890s in their as built condition with flyaway cab.

Tim Cramer published a number of drawings on Midland Locos and 6 wheel coaching stock in GSR/CIE condition in his Irish Miscellany series in Model Railway Magazine during the 1970s, the late Padraic O'Cuimin one of the recognised authorities on the Midland published the Baronial Lines of the MGWR a history of the Loughrea & Ballinrobe Branches and a number of IRRS papers on MGW carriage and wagon stock, together with some large scale (but un-dimmensioned) locomotive and rolling stock drawings.

Tim Cramer's drawings should be adequate for 4mm use and some of the coach drawing overlap with the MGWR general arrangement drawings in the IRRS compendium which are quite faded.

A Beyer Peacock General Arrangement drawing for the D Class 2-4-0s of the 1880s exists in the library of the Manchester Museum of Technology and may be available to the public, I don't know if drawings are available from British museums of locomotives supplied to the Midland, by Avonside, Kitson or North British loco, but a builders photo of the B Class 0-6-0s of the early 1900s is available from the Glasgow Museum of Transport.

In the past I have built models of MGWR locos in plasticard on modified rtr or my own chassis with reasonable results, but later turned to scratchbuilding in brass and eventually designing and producing my own kits. 

There are tutorials on assembling my kits in the JM Design section of the Manufacturers section of the News Group.

The Ks 2-4-0 is sold out, but the etchings for the Horse Box & Meat/Fish Van are available to special order with some of the castings available from Dart Castings in the UK.

The SSM convertible wagon is in whitemetal and  builds into a nice model and is an essential for modelling the MGWR from the early 1890s onwards, SSM also produce a nice whitemetal model of the Irish Standard open wagon which were used by the MGWR from about 1918 onwards.

Jeremy Suter produced very nice whitemetal models of the MGWR open box wagon and Standard Irish covered wagon used by the MGWR in its final years but the Jeremy Suter kits are rare but examples may appear occasionally on e-bay or exhibitions in the UK.

Though expensive and with a long lead time Ultrascale https://www.ultrascale.uk/ are probably the best option for 21mm gauge locomotive and rolling stock wheel sets. The Ultrascale locomotive and rolling stock wheels are superior to similar driving and rolling stock wheels produced by their competitors and are available in P4 and EMF/fine OO profiles. The wheel centers are cast into the nickle silver wheel rims which both eliminates problems with steel wheel rims rusting and working loose, the wheels have a wide boss (contact area) with the axle which both ensures true running and reduces the risk of a wheel moving on its axle, the driving wheels also have a superior shouldered crank pin system.  Alan Gibson wheels are reasonable but I have experienced problems with wheel rims coming adrift and having to Loctite the rim to the center, they have a steel tyre which is likely to rust if exposed to rust during chassis assembly and use 14Ba brass bolts as crankpins as I found the AG steel crankpins had a tendency to "wring" off when tightened.

Gauges and axles are available through the Scalefour society store https://www.scalefour.org/stores/stores.html, Jeremy Suter may be able to assist if contacted through the S4 Society. Living in New Zealand when I use Gibson wheels I obtain 28mm axles from a local supplier.

Hi John,

apologies for not having replied sooner, and many thanks for your incredibly detailed post. I can't thank you enough for the information and advice - there's so much there that I don't know where to start!

I think my biggest stumbling block at this stage are the track and back-to-back gauges and wagon W-irons and axles, so that's very useful to know. I've checked out the Scalefour Society website, and they seem to have quite a few items for 21mm gauge. I've always used Gibson wagon wheels to date, but the Ultrascale option sounds very promising for the future, particularly as they sound of much higher quality. 

Thanks for the info regarding the SSM wagons, unfortunately their open wagon sounds a bit too late for my period. Your own kits make up into excellent models and I've been admiring them in recent days. I'm just not sure I'm up to assembling etched brass kits and making a good job of them - I tried some years ago with an etched brass open wagon kit and made a right hash of it! Scratchbuilding in plasticard is more my thing and I can get fairly good results with a bit of care. But I'll have another look and may well take the plunge, details like louvres are far better represented by etching.

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Midland Great Western Van No. 19, photographed by Senior in the 1930s; date and location unknown.

I am puzzled a bit - presumably there’s an “M” after the number by this stage? It can’t be seen, though, and the thing carries neither “G  S” nor “M G W R”.

I am assuming it’s in Midland markings, as there was no “No.” in front of a number on a GSR-marked vehicle.

Then again, the MGWR didn’t either!

At first I thought it was an SLNCR vehicle, but for that line one would expect the number on the end too, and “SLNC” on the side. And you can see the cast-iron MGWR number plate, though even THAT is not typical!

 

 

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

Its a MGWR goods brake dating from the 1870s most of which had disappeared following the arrival of the modern 20T vans like Galtemore's model in the early 1920s. The van retains wooden brakeblocks and may be in MGWR green,  LGRP photo 7027 dated 18/7/31 of is No 29  at Broadstone in green livery with MGW lettering between the window and door at cill level  & THIRD branding on the door.

I built a 4mm model from known dimensions many years ago using plasticard and North West stripwood with plasticard cube rivet details, model checked out reasonably well against a drawing by Padraic O'Cuimin but I still need to repair the joint between the balcony end posts and the roof & replace those Kadee couplers with something more in keeping for an irish steam era model.

Thank you both for the brake van detail - such an interesting-looking vehicle that I feel I'd like to attempt a model as John @Mayner has done! @jhb171achill - the livery seems to be a bit of a conundrum, though? John - what shade of green did you settle on, and where did you get the axlebox/spring assemblies?

Thanks for the extra info!

With best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

I'd just like to say a huge "thank you" to everyone who has replied to my "newbie" questions with such patient and detailed answers - I can't tell you how much its appreciated! I'll have more questions, I'm sure, so I hope you'll all continue to be just as patient with me!

In the meantime, stay safe and stay well!

With very best regards,

Mark

[Midland Man]

If you want to model a real location try Ballysodare as.........

1. It was double track as the slncr had there line going true.

2. If set in the 50s a wide range of stock can be used

3. Simple track plan.

4. Could be modeled in O in about 12 ft.

Hope someone takes these into min and models it or maybe I will.

MM

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

If you want to model a real location try Ballysodare as.........

1. It was double track as the slncr had there line going true.

2. If set in the 50s a wide range of stock can be used

3. Simple track plan.

4. Could be modeled in O in about 12 ft.

Hope someone takes these into min and models it or maybe I will.

MM

Hi MM,

many thanks for the idea - it sounds pretty interesting so I'll see what I can find. My chosen period is 1900-1905, so if both MGWR and SLNCR, that would be an interesting combination. And the size sounds quite reasonable, too.

Thanks again and best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Actually, MM's post above has got me thinking about inter-company traffic. How often would the various companies' goods stock have ventured onto other companies' systems? So, for instance, would it be common to see, say GSWR or SLNCR wagons on the MGWR? Or if not those particular companies, then were there others whose stock could/would have been seen on the MGWR?

Thanks as always for any info!

Best regards,

Mark

[Midland Man]

Quit often.

 The same as on Engliah railways but on some parts very little.

[Galteemore]

Lots of variety, Mark.  Look at SLNC trains in the 50s and you’ll see GN and CIE wagons freely mixed in with the home stock. WLWR and GSWR would have been common in your chosen area, DSER probably less so. But you could have had GN and BNCR wagons heading south to Limerick, for instance. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Galteemore

[2996 Victor]

1 minute ago, Midland Man said:

Quit often.

 The same as on Engliah railways but on some parts very little.

 

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

All the time! Look at SLNC trains in the 50s and you’ll see GN and CIE wagons freely mixed in with the home stock. WLWR would have been common in your chosen area, DSER less so. But you could have had GN wagons heading south to Limerick, for instance. 

Thanks, guys, that's sort of what I thought, but as in all things, never assume.....Presumably, that would have been the case in my chosen 1900-1905 period as much as later on? I'm still waiting for my initial book purchases to arrive, so haven't got much to look at as yet.

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark