H class vans

[David Holman]

Lots of pictures, but can't seem to find any dimensions for the classic H. Have the Alphagraphix Bulleid underframe, so know length and width, while presume height of body was seven feet? Anyone got a basic drawing, please?

[Galteemore]

I used the Alphagraphix card kit for mine, David. I can take some basic dimensions off that if it helps....

[Glenderg]

Appears to be 7' height at sides, 8' in the centre, with the radius of roof being at the centre point of where the body meets the bufferbeam. I have a drawing here I did from ages ago, but I'd not be mad trusting of it ! 

[David Holman]

Thank you both! Seven feet seems to be a standard height for post war vans both sides of the water. The width of the doors would be helpful, as everything else can be worked out from that, so yes please.

[Galteemore]

Here you are David..., Width across both doors - 5’

Width of side panels 3’ (buffer end) and 3’6 (next to doors). When I made mine the first attempt was 3’ short as I’d omitted a panel! 

Van end 8’ across divided into 3 equal panels 
Main body 7’ high -7’9 at highest point on van end 

And lots and lots of bolt heads.....

David 
 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Thank you kind sir!

[leslie10646]

David and others

I have a Copyrighted 1964 drawing by "The Irish Model Railway Company" - No.3 in their series.

I have an idea it may be one of Herbie Richards' drawings and as he has kindly helped me with other drawings, I don't feel I can copy it here willy nilly.

However, it appears to be 3ft6in from rail to buffer and 7ft 11in to the crown of the curve of the roof..

I'm pretty sure that this was the basis of my kit.

Leslie

[Galteemore]

Here’s a few shots of my effort ....set against a 7mm scale rule. I see what Leslie said about the buffer height but if you’re using the Alphagraphix chassis, Roger will have made that decision for you already! The Slaters wheels may be slightly smaller than the strict scale original, which may explain any discrepancy.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

A fine model! See what you mean about the rivets, while an order to Eileen's will be needed as my store of microstrip is getting patchy and not likely to pick up supplies at exhibitions any time soon ...

[David Holman]

Just discovered I have a drawing after all! Wasn't labelled and somehow got into my MGW file...

All the same, many thanks for the help, it really is what this forum is about.

[David Holman]

Looking at photos, it seems there are a fair few variations in the H vans and especially compared to the drawings I have. Not surprising I suppose given the number built and period involved. For example, see that the fitted versions have a brake wheel, rather than a handle, while the variation of plates and rivets on the body sides is considerable too.

  For example, the picture of one being constructed at Inchicore in the Great Southern Railway album seems to have no rivets in the body, only on the strapping. Indeed, I wonder what the former were for - internal strapping maybe?

 Either way, there are masses of them and building a model is proving far more challenging than a wooden van! If I was building more than one, then resin casting would be essential. Mine is going to be an early, unfitted version, so any excuses to limit the number of rivets will be gratefully received.

Edited May 26, 2020 by David Holman

[patrick]

Over the years I have been looking closely at  pictures of CIE goods wagons in an attempt to capture the atmosphere of loose coupled trains of the seventies and have come to the conclusion that between detail and livery differences seldom were any two were alike. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by patrick

[Galteemore]

Having studied H vans a lot of late I agree! I wonder if the main body material varied over time too - as some seem to have acquired external reinforcement panels on the ends. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Looking at photos, it seems there are a fair few variations in the H vans and especially compared to the drawings I have. Not surprising I suppose given the number built and period involved. For example, see that the fitted versions have a brake wheel, rather than a handle, while the variation of plates and rivets on the body sides is considerable too.

  For example, the picture of one being constructed at Inchicore in the Great Southern Railway album seems to have no rivets in the body, only on the strapping. Indeed, I wonder what the former were for - internal strapping maybe?

GSR vans were a different animal. The internally-framed ones had horizontal planking on the outside, and were possibly somewhat smaller, from memory - slightly shorter wheelbase, I think? The GSR's forerunners to the "H" vans had a similar frame but horizontal planking. Many were still about until the early 60s.

The actual "H" vans starts appearing in the 1950s and as others have noted, thousands were built until the early to mid 1960s. But not to be confused with the GSR types. Some older (and lower, shorter or both) vans of ex-GSWR or Midland origin were still to be seen in the late 1950s.

The brake wheels appeared in the 1960s.

51 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Having studied H vans a lot of late I agree! I wonder if the main body material varied over time too - as some seem to have acquired external reinforcement panels on the ends. 

Yes, they'd get patched from time to time. I saw one in Kilkenny goods yard with planked doors, doubtless off an old GSR van. Come to think of it, I've a notion that wasn't a one-off.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, patrick said:

Over the years I have been looking closely at  pictures of CIE goods wagons in an attempt to capture the atmosphere of loose coupled trains of the seventies and have come to the conclusion that between detail and livery differences seldom were any two were alike. 

Yes, like anything there were variations, though not as many as one might think - really, the main differences were varying levels of wear and tear, thus weathering.

Livery wise there were but five variations:

1. Any built before approx 1954/5 - all grey with eau-de-nil painted flying snail & number.

2. Repaints of the above and new-builds between approximately 1954 and 1958 - all grey with white painted FS & No.

3. From 1958/8 onwards, white FS & numbers, but the FS is now STENCILLED. A lighter grey appearing from about 1960/1.

4. After 1963, lighter grey with CIE "roundel", which was initially all white, but by the late 60s, White let's surrounded by a tan "broken wheel".

5. After approx. 1970 all brown with all white "roundel" and number.

In all cases, whether grey or brown, the wain was entirely painted this colour. Newly painted brown wagons stood out with their brown roofs, but exhaust from locos and weathering often toned these down to LOOK mid-greyish.

Many wagons - I would guess up to a quarter - remained grey to the end (mid-70s), some even still with stencilled "snails". 

In modelling variations, a pair of wooden planked doors on one would be a suitable structural difference - maybe just one wooden door!

From close inspection the type of panelling they had looked and felt to me like some sort of very heavy duty marine ply.

Towards the end, from memory most had the brake wheel.

[David Holman]

Fab! Thanks everyone!

[minister_for_hardship]

There is what looks like a green painted H van at Inchicore in Irish Railways in Colour II, can't see numbers or logo. Internal user van?

[Galteemore]

A small number were so turned out early on for running with passenger trains. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2020 at 12:01 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

There is what looks like a green painted H van at Inchicore in Irish Railways in Colour II, can't see numbers or logo. Internal user van?

Three at least were painted green with grey roof and black chassis, specifically for use carrying mail between Cork and Tralee. They were tagged onto the back of passenger trains. This seems to have been reasonably short-lived, as they were repainted grey later, and must have been built that way. Somewhere in the back of my mind is an idea that four were so treated, but certainly three anyway. I have a note of at least one of their numbers somewhere, must search.

[flange lubricator]

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Three at least were painted green with grey roof and black chassis, specifically for use carrying mail between Cork and Tralee. They were tagged onto the back of passenger trains. This seems to have been reasonably short-lived, as they were repainted grey later, and must have been built that way. Somewhere in the back of my mind is an idea that four were so treated, but certainly three anyway. I have a note of at least one of their numbers somewhere, must search.

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/irish-railways-cie/hA0FCA88C#ha0fca88c nice picture of one here 

Edited June 1, 2020 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely superb stuff, Flange! many thanks. Must look and see what other Irish stuff they have! One of jhb171Snrx2's horizontal-planked goods vans to the left of it.........

[Mayner]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:08 PM, Galteemore said:

Having studied H vans a lot of late I agree! I wonder if the main body material varied over time too - as some seem to have acquired external reinforcement panels on the ends. 

The CIE H van introduced in the early 1950s appears to have evolved out of a GSWR 10T van 15147 with steel underframe and framing and planked body work introduced during WW1 which later became the standard GSR van.

The photos were originally published on Flickr some years ago. I have no details of the original photographer/publisher.

15771 GSWR/GSR 10T standard covered wagon & 1950s H Van.

At some stage (possibly in GSR days) some vans were fitted with aluminium sheeting over the planking such as the photo of the van in Donal Murray's GSR book, the aluminium sheeted vans resembled the plywood bodies CIE H vans, but seem to have been fitted with planked doors.

 

15903 GSR built IRCH standard 10T covered wagon. The MGWR & GNR also built and used this type of wagon.

Ex GNR Irish Standard 10T van with aluminium? body sheeting! and Double skinned 10T covered wagon 16586

 The final 10T van 16812 was unique with an all metal body with corrugated ends similar to LMS & British Railway vans and a roof profile not unlike a Baltimore & Ohio Wagon Topped boxcar http://www2.irm.org/blogs/categories/55-Baltimore-Ohio-374065-Wagon-Top-Boxcar

16812 ended up as a builders store in Castleknock and there was a grounded body of an aluminium clad van in a field on the Dublin side of Kinegad at least up to the late 1990s.

CIE appear to have treated the 15147-16812 series 10T vans as a common type despite significant differences in design and construction.

To confuse things further the GSR appear to have built some timber framed  "Standard Irish" 10T vans not unlike the GNR vans in appearance, in additions some of these vans were double sheeted with horizontal planking obscuring the outside framing. The double sheeted vans were long lived and may have been insulated vans used for perishable traffic some were re-painted in red oxide and remained in service into the mid 70s after the majority of pre- 1950s vans were withdrawn from service.

CIE built the 1st batch of 12T vans in 1946 these had a plywood body sheeting similar to the H van of the 1950s on a standard steel underframe, these were followed by a batch of 9 wagons with "light alloy" bodies known as LMA wagons in 1952 similar visually to 16812 but with a conventional roof profile, the grounded body of one of these vans was at the rear of a farm house on the Athlone side of Rochfordbridge.

I spent some time checking out grounded wagon bodies while working in Westmeath during the late 90s but have few decent photos.