Liveries

[jhb171achill]

As always, questions welcome - I have access to all sorts of details which my be of help...............

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Would it be possible for you to do like a data base of liveries on the site. If we were to suggest what locos etc we wanted over a period of time you could answer and Stephen could put them in a section that is read only. A couple that you could start of with would be say the 800 class the Sulzer and I don't know the name of the class but its Dunluce Castle in Cultra

[jhb171achill]

By all means, Anthony. Anything that anyone wants I can research if I don't know; as I said, I have access to enough information for most things. The one thing I might be scant on is exact dates when a particular loco or coach 9or anything else) FIRST got such-and-such a livery, but if one was modelling, say, a period in mid 70s, and wanted five 141s ontheir layout, it would be fair to say that three would be brand new "supertrain livery" and two would be black'n'tan; oneperhaps very shabby looking, the other not too bad. But which loco numbers? A purist would need to look at an IRRS journal,for example,of the period to see that loco 14X was one livery, while 14Y and 14Z were another. But i would have the details of how they were painted. If you know what i mean.

 

If I get time over the next while (though the May Tour is approaching, and the DCDR accounts have to be finished!) I will try to get details of CIE diesels from B113/4 up to 071s put together insome sort of fashion suitable for a reference table. As and when I find info about anythiong unusual pertainingto an individual loco I will add that. Steam likewise; I have details somewhere of exactly which steam locos CIE painted black; there were only a dozen or maybe 20 altogether, and anything painted black was well past 1950. I also have details of which locos were painted green. Not just immediately to hand but I can dig it out.

 

Coaches - same sort of concept. There were four variations of the green livery, three of them pre 1955, and several exceptions notably on the West Cork system. In black'n'orange/tan days there were minor variations and interesting details, such as the fact that only a very small handfulof six wheelers ever got the black and tan livery, and all thus treated were full brakes. Wagons throw up interesting details as well, such as a standard CIE covered "H" van in all over dark green at one stage (not sure why!).

 

We also have examples of vehicles "skipping" a livery, such as ex-GNR brake third 114 (formerly in RPSI ownership, may be scrapped now(?)). That coach was the last passenger carrying vehicle to carry GNR brown/teaky livery, lasting thus to about 1966, when it was painted directly into orange and black, never being green.

 

So if anyone has thoughts, suggestions, or enquiries, feel free......

[Guest hidden-agenda]

It would be brilliant to have a Data-base for liveries jnb its something that is lacking and would be used by most modellers over time.

[BosKonay]

I'd be happy to work on extending http://www.irishrailmodels.com if it helps?

[BosKonay]

Might not be prototypical, but all over green with flying snails would make a nice preserved rake

[jhb171achill]

BosKonay, such a thing could well happen. The RPSI has enough carriages to make up a wooden / Park Royal / laminate rake in green - and in fact, most of its "heritage" set based in Dublin is already in the later post-1955 lighter green, snails and all. 461 is also in green with snail.

 

At Downpatrick,one of the current running set (brake genny 3223 of 1956) is in the later version of the dark green, snail an'all. Downpatrick also has four other bogie carriages, and two unrestored six wheelers, as well as one six wheeler being restored, and a TPO and din ing car - all of which could authentically wear CIE green of either shade.

 

That said, it is current DCDR policy to paint carriages as they would have been when new, i.e. GSWR livery for a coach of that company, and so on. That said, of the list above,many were new to CIE and therefore even with that policy will eventually be green.

 

A detail: one of the above is Park Royal 1944. Because of the ridge along the bodyside Park Royals didn't have the snail, and were always in the lighter green as they were only being built when it replaced the dark green.

[jhb171achill]

Would it be possible for you to do like a data base of liveries on the site. If we were to suggest what locos etc we wanted over a period of time you could answer and Stephen could put them in a section that is read only. A couple that you could start of with would be say the 800 class the Sulzer and I don't know the name of the class but its Dunluce Castle in Cultra[/quote

 

The Sulzer... Originally dark green, black and white lined as in steam engine livery, and nowadays to be seen on 800, with snail and numerals lined also. This livery was also initially applied to the "D" class shunters. By the late fifties, the lighter green much like the way it is now in Cultra, though the lettering now isn't quite right. Then full black'n'tan, waist height, followed later by the all black with yellow ends that they ended their days in.

 

NCC steam engines followed LMS practice, either lined black or lined maroon. The only difference was the number plates instead of transfer son cab sides, as the English ones had, and "NCC" instead of "LMS" on tender or tank sides. The version on 74 in Cultra is accurate, though these engines spent a lot of their life in black, lined red; and later in UTA livery.

[Glenderg]

Jhb, i think a distinction of the greens really needs to be made. All CIE greens, be they busses or rail based, at their beginning, were all yellow toned as seen in the signs the barber shop in enniskillen. Imagine brunswick green with a lump of yellow in it, it has an earthier more "applegreen" tone, reflected in colour photos of that period. It's also backed up by the colour of the paint as it faded and weathered - UV light has a desaturation effect on enamel based paint. The colour gets darker like a douglas pine if left long enough neglected.This can be seen with tattered depatmental wagons on ernie bracks flickr page.

 

At some point in the mid fifties it seems the new dieseasesls contracted a brighter hue of green, imagine a brunswick green with a nice lump of blue.

 

This is evident from the tattered park royals at inchicore and the tpo at downpatrick. The detioration of the paint to a turquoise hue shows their beginnings, from a colour perspective. It appears to be a more "Malachite green" technically. This colour transferred to the park royals and has seemingly become "the green" to the rpsi et al. With respect, i stongly disagree with their interpretation of the colour as it applies to the earlier laminates/bredin mk2's as "authentic early cie"

 

Now i'm only a young pup, and you may castigate me accordingly, but i was always told in college that the "worst sketch is better than the best memory" and all the books and colour photos provided by yourself, tom ferris, des coackham, barry carse, ernie brack, colour rail and many others,tell me there were two definitive greens. I'll happily tart up a few models in my version of the two green colours, along with photos of the time, if it helps the debate. I'll even pop down to the IRRS, models in hand to clarify this. Ask around, this is really really sticking in my craw.

 

Richie.

[jhb171achill]

Richie

 

You are quite correct. There were two very distinct shades of green in use, one considerably lighter than the other. The history of it is this. About 1940, the Dublin United Tramways Company changed its livery from yellow and grey (cue the 121s over 20 years later?) to dark green, retaining its garter logo for a while, though this was shortly changed to the "Snail". When CIE was formed in 1945, they adopted the Dublin tram livery for everything under the sun - from timetable covers to the inside walls of some signal boxes, a few steam locos, carriages, trams and buses. The first diesels had lined green; the four "D" class and 1101/2 (later B113/4). The three 800 class steam locomotives acquired it in place of the somewhat lighter GSR green; these remained the only locos painted CIE green until just after 1950, when some more got it.

 

In the mid fifties some new passenger stock was placed into service unpainted, and the A, C, G601, E401 and B101 classes were also silver. This wore very badly, so from about 1956 onwards both new and repainted older coaches received a lighter shade.

 

The original paint, straight from inchicore Works, can be seen on the background to the collection of mounted railway crests - the best collection of irish ones probably in existence - which is in "Headhunters" barber shop and railway museum in Enniskillen. For those who have not seen this, it's a must. I know of the provenance of this collection, as I obtained it for the museum. Almost every single coat of arms is on actual railway paint; indeed, the Cork, Blackrock & Passange one is cut out of the side of a coach. One can't get more accurate than that!

 

But I digress. The correct green can also be seen on several preserved buses and on loco 800 in Cultra. There are folks on this board with a greater knowledge of who owns these preserved buses, or who painted them, but the colours on thoseI have seen in the flesh are accurate. 800 was actually painted in Inchicore before presentation to the old Belfast Transport Museum. It carries "G S" markings now - this is inaccurate. It is in CIE green, and should have a "snail"; if they want "G S", they should have it painted a slightly lighter shade, though the details don't seem to have survived, and lined yellow and black..

 

But I digress again. The older, darker green, plus the light shade known as "eau-de-nil" (whatever that is!) date to the DUTC, and were used on all road vehicles up to the early 1960s. The same dark green was applied to some station paintwork, though a slightly lighter shade was used as well. This may be seen in two patches under the train shed roof at Harcourt Street Station now - just go up the steps off Hatch Street.

 

The style of lining was not unlike that on the Bachmann coaches, though the bands on these are far too wide. Locos, diesel and steam, had black and white lining in the style now seen on the RPSI's 461, and on 800. Road vehicles had the eau-de-nil.

 

The eau-de-nil lining was itself lined in gold, as were snails and lettering / numerals.

 

So, reference the crests in Enniskillen or 800 for that accurate shade.

 

The lighter shade post-56 was never applied to road vehicles or station buildings or furniture; just to diesel locomotives (not steam) and passenger rolling stock. The Downpatrick TPO was accurately painted this way, but is badly faded now. The RPSI's Dublin-based heritage set is also accurately painted in this shade. When in use, this lighter green had unlined snails, numerals and so on, and instead of a thickish eau-de-nil band above and below window level, instead had a single thinner line below the windows only, as on the DCDR and RPSI stock referred to.

 

There were a few exceptions. Some railcars, of both AEC and narrow gauge WCR Walker varieties, were painted the dark colour, others the lighter green. But all had the simpler form of lining and lettering. This "railcar livery" - the earlier dark green lined with one thin line only - can be seen accurately reproduced on Downpatrick's brake standard genny 3223.

 

In the late 50s, Albert Quay turned out some unlined stock in the darker green, with two snails per side, and apparently in white. The West Clare passenger stock bore both dark and light green - entirely unlined and mostly without snails either, while the Cavan & Leitrim had the eau-de-nil band above window level only.

 

Carriage ends were always black in CIE times, until the moren Mk 3's and the like.

 

I hope this helps.

[jhb171achill]

Richie, if you're ever in the IRRS on Tuesday nights, give me a shout. I am not there every week, but would be quite regularly.

[Garfield]

...The correct green can also be seen on several preserved buses and on loco 800 in Cultra. There are folks on this board with a greater knowledge of who owns these preserved buses, or who painted them, but the colours on those I have seen in the flesh are accurate. 800 was actually painted in Inchicore before presentation to the old Belfast Transport Museum. It carries "G S" markings now - this is inaccurate. It is in CIE green, and should have a "snail"; if they want "G S", they should have it painted a slightly lighter shade, though the details don't seem to have survived, and lined yellow and black...

 

JB,

 

There's a photo of an 'O' gauge model of Meadbh in 'Modelling Irish Railways' by Stephen Johnston and Alan O'Rourke, which was painted in genuine GSR green from a stock obtained from Inchicore by Cyril Fry.

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Garfield - I'd forgotten all about that! Anyone know where that model is these days?

[RedRich]

With the amount of great info in this thread it has made me have more sympathy with manufacturers of models. It must be an absolute nightmare trying to come up with a near or perfect shade of colour. Colour is the one thing that is difficult to scale down whatever the scale. If the model that Pat has mentioned (I have the book) was painted would it have been thinned down to a ratio in scale with the model. If so would it have been an exact shade to the original.

 

Once again very interesting subject, I look forward to more.

 

Rich,

[jhb171achill]

Paints can be watered down with thinners for small models, but would not lose their shade. The only thing that a modeller needs to beware of is having a paint finish too glossy looking. For a model maker, professional or amateur, most liveries of most things have ample info available.

 

The most common mistakes, for the purist, are coloured carriage ends or black chassis or ironwork on goods stock. There were some examples of both, for example modern carriages and pre-GSR stock, but not CIE. The Donegal system had some black ironwork, and the NCC appears to have painted the chassis of "brown vans" in black - doubtless for use on passenger trains. CIE painted a very small number of "H" vans in dark green... Possibly only one.... but it had a black chassis. Otherwise, wagon chassis, draw gear, wheels and roofs would almost always be body colour, as would strapping.

 

As several have very amply demonstrated here, moderate to heavy weathering, and above all avoiding high gloss finishes, makes models almost spookily realistic!

[jhb171achill]

Among the other EXACT paints, i.e. taken from the actual companies as backgrounds for the crests in Enniskillen are: Clogher Valley coach maroon, GSR maroon, BCDR maroon, CBPR dark lake, CDRJC red, GNR loco blue, T & D original coaching purple-maroon (pre-GSR takeover), Dublin & Blessington green, DUTC green, same as early CIE as mentioned above, UTA green, CIE snail showing the eau-de-nil, and DUTC grey and yellow (again, actually cut off the side of a tramcar).

 

Actual specification GNR railcar navy blue and cream colours, their formulas etc., are still held by the old established firm of Jamison & Green, who supplied paint to the GNR and UTA.

 

In the UK, LMS maroon ("Midland Red") is widely available. This is the same as what the NCC and GSR (post 1935) used.

[murrayec]

Hi

 

I've been playing with tinted varnish to scale the colours

 

A very small drop of matt black or a matt dark brown into the final varnish coat, after everything is complete- decals, rails, wipers..etc; One can progressively tint the whole model in several goes until the desired finish is achieved and it cuts out messing around with getting correct scale colours.

 

murrayec

[RedRich]

Paints can be watered down with thinners for small models, but would not lose their shade. The only thing that a modeller needs to beware of is having a paint finish too glossy looking. For a model maker, professional or amateur, most liveries of most things have ample info available.

 

The most common mistakes, for the purist, are coloured carriage ends or black chassis or ironwork on goods stock. There were some examples of both, for example modern carriages and pre-GSR stock, but not CIE. The Donegal system had some black ironwork, and the NCC appears to have painted the chassis of "brown vans" in black - doubtless for use on passenger trains. CIE painted a very small number of "H" vans in dark green... Possibly only one.... but it had a black chassis. Otherwise, wagon chassis, draw gear, wheels and roofs would almost always be body colour, as would strapping.

 

As several have very amply demonstrated here, moderate to heavy weathering, and above all avoiding high gloss finishes, makes models almost spookily realistic!

 

Depending on how heavily they were thinned could cause changes to the shade of paint John. The type of thinners also needs to be of a type that wouldn't attack the material of the structure of the model. Looking at a model in differing degrees of light, early morning, evening, indoors, outdoors and things do begin to take on a different hue. I agree with the gloss finish on models, however if you have painted the model yourself a gloss finish can be a great aid to adding different mediums of weathering. Of course when it is weathered you can give it a satin or dull coat to get the finish you require.

 

I read a great piece on using authentic paints from Ian Rathbone years ago and it was truly eye opening.

 

Rich,

[Glenderg]

I think i'll pop down to the IRRS some tuesday that suits JHB - put some resolution to this "green" issue i have!

 

Matching paint to scale is a really difficult thing. I have one of PMs 201's here, and i,m disgusted with the salmon hue off it. Not how i remember them, nor how they match my photos, but that's a relatively easy fix.

 

Recent experiments in respraying show that if you were to respray a bachmann corridor to match the flying snail set issued by PM some years ago, and the most recent Dapol set, you'd find the dark green paint colour is identical to bachmann RPSI set some time later. Tamiya x5 + 5 drops of blue cartridge ink, for anyone interested.

 

Somehow i doubt that the current green rpsi set and dark green 1946 cie colour are the same? Jhb? :-)

 

And as for golden-brown cie, toughest colour i've ever had to match. Five batches of paint before i got to the good stuff, and when i put it on a tpo, i was fully convinced it was wrong! Wrenneire even witnessed the mixamitosis. Four of the colour shades were applied to a coach and it was nearly airbrushes at dawn. Games workshop fiery orange with tamiyas xf-68, ratio 9:1, before it colour matched a broken buffer beam on b141.

 

Weirdest of all is mk3 orange. Most lads whack on ral 2011 and all is good. But heres the thing. The top coat applied always yellows, so if you look at one dead on its orange. If you look at it obliquely it has a yellow hue. Look at it from afar or in poor light and its brown. Throw diesel fumes, brake dust, track crap and whatever, and you may as well pick the colour that suits you recollection.

 

I made up a batch of "my" cie 50's green recently. Cadmium yellow, x5 tamiya green, humbrol lime green, tamiya brunswick green,games workshop snot green, and every time i look at the coach, it has all of those attributes, depending on time of day, and amount of liqour ingested!

 

Richie

[BSGSV]

I have to disagree with JHB that there were just two CIE Greens - the one inherited from DUTC and a later lighter shade. I think things are more complicated than that.

 

Mr. D. Kennedy presented a paper to the Irish Railway Record Society which was published in their June 1965 Issue No. 37. The piece was entitled "Modern CIE Coaching Stock" and I would make it clear that coaching stock is all that is being discussed in this reply. Mr. Kennedy covered mainly the vehicles constructed by CIE and, inter alia, liveries applied. He acknowledged the assistance of Mr. Thomas Tighe of Inchicore ("Railway Tommy" well known in connection with the sadly removed railway at Malahide Castle) and Mr. Leslie Hyland of "Irish Railway News", so the credentials are good. Bear in mind the Journal in those days was monochrome, so Mr. Kennedy's word descriptions are all we have to go on, except where stated otherwise below.

 

JHB has pointed out that CIE adopted DUTC dark green with eau-de-nil lining, with examples of the colour cited at Headhunters and No. 800 at Cultra. Mr. Kennedy describes this as "dark bottle green" and it was applied to the first CIE-built coaches, Compo's 2124-9 of March 1951, 3rd's 1339-50 of late-1951 and Compo's 2130-6 of early-1952. These do not appear to have had any lining, but did have silver windows frames and a light green "1" on first class doors.

 

3rd's 1351-5 of 1952 were similar to above but with the addition of a narrow light green waistband. A quote from the article: "These were the last coaches so painted, but despite a number of mid-green liveries which followed, the light green band was retained".

 

The AEC railcars 2600 onwards started delivery in November 1951 and early members appear to have had the dark green, but not specifically mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. Delivery continued for some time, such that later members appeared in a lighter green. See a photo of 2657 at Waterford Manor in the first Tom Ferris colour album, which is standing next to a disused Clayton, still in dark green. The railcar's roof is well worth looking at too! The West Clare Railcars (286-9, later 3386-9) appeared in 1952 and also appear to have had dark green, but not mentioned by Mr. Kennedy.

 

The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean".

 

Mr. Kennedy then goes on: "During 1953 and 1954 various other liveries, all shades of mid green, were tested on many vehicles, but all were unsuccessful". Sadly, the shades and vehicles are not mentioned, but those concerned would have been Buffets 2405-18 of 1953/4, Compo's 2137-61 of 1954 and 3rd's 1372-8 of 1954.

 

The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956.

 

Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, but were in unpainted aluminium. Buffets 2419-22 of 1956 have no livery mentioned by Mr. Kennedy - were they unpainted or green? 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that Mr. Kennedy notes repaints in green started in 1958...

 

Bulleid Railcars 2660-5 of 1957 had unlined brilliant green according to Mr. Kennedy, but Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958.

 

2nd's 1449-96, produced from October 1958 to 1960 were green. Mr. Kennedy notes those produced after 1958 had a light green CIE emblem "a revival of the pre-1950 practice, which was continued until the present (sic) livery was evolved in 1961".

 

Brake-2nd's 1909-13 of late-1959 were green too, as were Heating vans 3142-52 of 1959/60. No mention is made by Mr. Kennedy of the liveries applied to Luggage vans 2549-58 of early-1961, Kitchen 2401 of June 1961 and Compo's 2172-5 of later-1961, but this comment suggests they were green. "Shortly after the release into traffic of the 2172 class compos, several coaches appeared in a new and very striking livery of black (upper panels, roof and ends); golden brown (lower panels); and white (a band just above window level)".

 

He duly notes new Compo's 2176-9 of 1962 as being the first new coaches in the new livery.

 

Mr. Kennedy does not say what livery was applied to existing coaches on overhaul/repaint, but presumably the prevailing shade of green would have been used?

 

As I've said before, "CIE Green" offers great opportunity for debate and dispute!

Edited November 14, 2013 by BSGSV

[Broithe]

I have to disagree with JHB that there were just two CIE Greens - the one inherited from DUTC and a later lighter shade. I think things are more complicated than that.

 

Possibly as many as forty..?

[jhb171achill]

BSGSV, a very interesting article indeed, thanks. To answer a few points. The early experiment with a lighter green was indeed the same light green used a few years later. It probably looked like "Apple green" beside the existing dark shade, but evidently was liked as it was to becoms standard. The variations you mention (and I've seen pics if one or two of them somewhere) tended to be short lived one-offs, a bit like the legendary painting of a UTA "Jeep" in green.

 

The RPSI liveries are their own. The Whitehead based Mk. 2 set is in a close approximation to UTA green, not CIE. The lining is the RPSI's own invention, and was initially devised by yours truly, the idea being that the coaches ought to look roughly UTA, but were not in fact!

 

UTA green, when in use an weathered, tended to dull down to be like this is now, in traffic. The CIE shades did too, as did the various versions of the later CIE "tan".

 

I defer to the knowledge of those whose knowledge and experience of paint thinning and weathering on models is far superior to mine!

 

The two shades of green I referred to initially were the only two "official" versions, despite clear evidence of the odd alternative experiment. In addition to coaches, loco 801 was briefly painted in a slightly lighter shade in the early 50s, but quickly reverted to the shade on 800, the standard. 801 also carried red backgrounds to its number and nameplates from this time a la 461; the only CIE loco ever to do so. 800 and 802 had blue; all other green CIE locos had painted numerals and no names.

[Glenderg]

The early experiment with a lighter green was indeed the same light green used a few years later.

 

This is not the case, in my humble opinion, and my argument is borne out by BSGSV's comprehensive contribution.

 

The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean".

 

*snipped*

 

The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956.

 

Essentially, my theory is that the initial green applied to early Bredin MKII's was this lighter apple green, a direct descendant of the earlier DUTC colour on the colour chart but completely different, and that the brilliant green was added for the Park Royals onward - three shades of CIE green.

 

Thank you BSGSV, I thought I had completely lost the plot. Richie.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Glenderg

[BSGSV]

Having cheesed off JHB, I may as well go for the max and try it on you too Glenderg!

 

The GSR mid-1930's coaches were introduced by Arthur Harty and I have no idea why people keep referring to them as Bredins. The latter's influence appears limited (if at all) to the last GSR coaches of 1937 (just about the time the CME changed, hence my doubt) widening the design to 9' 6" from the previous 9' 3". The initial few CIE Compo's do relate to GSR coaches, but subsequent CIE builds had different lengths and other features, an interesting discussion in itself, but perhaps not in the Liveries thread!

 

I agree with you Glenderg, that if Mr. Kennedy (and his contributors) had wanted to relate the apple and brilliant greens as one and the same, he would not have used the two different terms in the first place. I think we are talking two different shades.

[David Holman]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the purists - scale colour, indeed ANY colour, is a personal thing. Indeed, there is a less well known fact that blokes tend to lose the ability to match colour as they get older anyway, favouring the blue spectrum ahead of the yellow. Hence real implications for perception of shades of green. Women, on the other hand keep their colour perception into their dotage, which is another reason why they tend to dress better and moan at us when we don't!

The moral of the story might be to seek help from the fair sex, particularly where green is concerned. At least there are only 40 shades. Grey, it seems is even more complex.

[BSGSV]

I could comment that if male contributors to this forum were that good at engaging with the ladies, they wouldn't be spending as much time posting replies as they do, myself included...

Grey is definitely another ball game...

 

Seriously, I entirely agree with the notion that whatever the modeller thinks is a suitable mid-green, they can happily apply it. Given we are unlikely to ever know all the experimental shades, and given different perceptions and the effects of ageing on contemporary colour prints, slides and film, there appears ample scope to justify your personal choice. I am also aware that some people (having witnessed it in preservation circles) get very exercised over what they regard as the "proper" colour. As much as anything, I have tried to illustrate that "proper" is a very elastic term in relation to CIE Green on coaches.

[Glenderg]

I could comment that if male contributors to this forum were that good at engaging with the ladies, they wouldn't be spending as much time posting replies as they do, myself included....

 

 

Colour blindness is very common in men, especially telling the tonal differences between blue and green, so perhaps more ladies are in need of recruitment?

[jhb171achill]

Fascinating stuff! And nothing will cheese me off, BSGSV, other than the price of Guinness in temple bar, so don't worry!

 

My initial point was that there were the two main shades, details of which may be had. I had mentioned in earlier posts that in not just this, but many livery issues, there are sometimes variations. Just look at current "Enterprise" variations on 201 class locos and DVTs.

 

The "Apple green" variation was a somewhat halfway house; it never became official policy as such, and yet was applied to a fair number of vehicles. I never saw it - but other shades of various colours I refer to from time to time relate to matters I can either verify myself or clarify by references to very reliable sources. Thus, these posts are designed to assist those who would want to portray great accuracy.

 

Naturally, as others have pointed out, what a modeller wants is only his business. The legendary Drew Donaldson disliked Inchicore's loco grey, and liked lined green so much that he painted all his models in a lined green livery. Needless to say, few of the prototypes ever carried it, but they looked superb nonetheless.

 

Others referred above to the difficulties of matching colours for models. True - I have fallen victim to this myself. But it also happens in 12ins to the foot scale, for example when a paint supplier to a railway went out of business or changed specifications. Legend had it that Dundalk applied forty shades of blue to its locos over a 25 year period, though there is no evidence to authentically back this up. Indeed, they had paint mixing chemists at the works there to ensure consistency. I knew one; he's long gone to his rest now.

 

But some of these green variants were doubtless caused by this. In my time at Whitehead, the old sleeping coach there - now the Operation Manager & PW office at Downpatrick - needed a lick of paint. A job lot of cheap maroon had been bought to do a quick job on several coaches. It was trialled on this vehicle; the result, as many saw for some years, was that it looked purple, not maroon.

 

Luckily the running set hadn't been touched and all the paint was sent back to the supplier. Otherwise, you would almost certainly have had two RPSI coaches running around like this for some years.

 

The research always continues. Whatever stuff I find I will share.

[jhb171achill]

Meant to add, and is indeed appropriate for another post.... Harty's influence in the "Bredins".

 

It was common practice in the past (and quite wrongly so, in my opinion) for the head of department to take credit for work he had overseen. Best example - all the bridges "built by" I K Brunel, or all the locomotives (personally?) built by Robert Stephenson, and did Gandon or Mulvany actually "build" all sorts of fine buildings?

 

Reality is, Bredin had a team of draughtsman, as did his predecessors and others like him. The most famous thing attributed to Bredin is of course Maedb and her sisters. If you examine drawings of these locos and indeed the "Bredin" coaches, you will not find the initials of Edgar Craven Bredin on them, you will find initials of others.

 

Not to dismiss Bredin by any means; he wasn't the head of the department for nothing. He oversaw, and I suppose as they say now "facilitated" the transfer from an idea, via a plan, to a running locomotive.

 

His Chief Draughtsman was also heavily involved in the accompanying coaches, the second batch of the Drumm Battery trains, and many locomotive rebuilds.

[BSGSV]

Thus, these posts are designed to assist those who would want to portray great accuracy.

 

Glad you're not cheesed off JHB, and you're quite right to remind us that it is all very well to get the background, but what about the application, i.e what can the modeller use from the discussion? You yourself have shown a couple of examples of the early CIE dark green - No. 800 in Cultra and the DUTC crest at Headhunters (the latter and some screen shots from "The Quiet Man" are in the thread "Sourcing Accurate Liveries" in the "Tips and Tricks" section.

 

"Brilliant Green" seems a bit more contentious (maybe not?). What would be your suggestion for a good approximation for that?

[jhb171achill]

BSGSV - yes, to answer your question, my point re weathering / matt finish / watering down initially - was that if watering down gives this effect, then that's the way to do it. I would have quite a bit of info about liveries, but actual painting techniques wouldn't be my forte, I'm afraid. To answer re the actual shade of the brilliant green, the RPSI set in Dublin is very much as I remember it, but also very much as old photos of good colour quality would indicate.

Edited November 15, 2013 by jhb171achill

[murrayec]

Hi All

 

Don't want to step on toes! but we can talk about greens that were on this and that and how it looks at a distance on a grey day or in full sun light.... References is the man! preferably in BS, RAL or other standard systems.

 

References give a standard starting point and then the modeller can adjust to his/her preferences.

 

Here are some I worked out;

 

Poot's light green = (BS4800) - 12-D-53 (Known as 'Linden' in the Dulux range) - Green undercoat

 

IR light green = (BS4800) - 12-D-43 - Green undercoat

 

Poot's dark green = (BS4800) - 12-D-45 (Known as 'Sherwood' in the Dulux range) Green undercoat

 

 

 

If anyone can add to this list of references we would then have a starting point for painting models and a standard could be kept.

 

murrayec

[jhb171achill]

Murrayec, you'd be ahead of me on that, as I said earlier the exact painting techniques and methods of diluting or mixing paint wouldn't be my thing. The exact references you would have are of benefit to modellers. My contributions would be to point people in the direction of information, or of examples I know to be accurate. If you are able to provide paint number references, i.e. the equivalent of an actual "menu", then that's the job done.

[StevieB]

Just as our models are scaled down, maybe colours need to be treated in a similar way? Also, weathering will tone everything down. It's the same with models and sound. I'm sure some are as loud as the prototype, but I digress. Sorry!

Stephen