iarnrod

No.

I really don't get the hero worship that seems to surround MM. MM seen a gap in the market for Irish models and decided to fill that gap by introducing models. He didn't do it on my 'behalf'. He did it to make money. He just happens to produce products that I have an interest in, and that I have spent thousands on to date. ''I'm reliably informed that the Man himself is aware of these issues, and indeed this thread, and is upset by both'' - I am glad to see that MM has recognised the issues with these coaches, but surprised to see that he would be upset by this thread as alluded to here. Any business needs to take comments and complaints from their customers seriously. If they don't, they will lose customers. There are many customers unhappy with these coaches, and that needs to be addressed by MM.

Wrenneire, why exactly can't MM return the coaches to China? Surely, if the product is not up to scratch, MM is within his rights to return them, especially if the finished product differs in finish quality from the agreed pre prod specimens. Bachmann have in the past, returned items to the factory to be corrected, so it is not totally unheard of in the world of railway models. Has MM yet acknowledged the issues with the finish on these coaches? As much as I want to see 121 and A Class being produced by MM as well as many other future releases, if the accepted standard is going to be along the lines of the Supertrain MK2's, then resprays are going to be par for the course for future releases.

Fully agree with flange lubricator. As consumers, we are paying a top drawer price for what should be a top drawer product. Unfortunately, in this case, the finish is far from top drawer. An RTR model should be one that you should be able to take it from the box and use it without having to make any modifications or adjustments, no matter who the manufacturer is, but especially so with these prices per unit.

That's a really good fix, and it certainly tones down the colour a notch or two. Couple of points though on the liveries. When IR came into being in 1987, most coaches simply were given a deep clean and had white striping applied as opposed to a full repaint. Full repaints happened over time. So initially, there would have been no difference in shade between CIE livery and IR livery on the majority of coaching stock. The last picture of 5230 would have been taken after 1980, as identified by the full black ends, so a slightly brighter orange/tan shade was in use then, which would most likely account for the difference. Josefstadt - I'm fairly certain MM only created one mould type per coach variant. In addition to the windows, you will also note that the vents on each side are the later retro fitted type as opposed to the original vents. The correct type is actually shown on the old Lima type Mk2 coaches. Might be available as an aftermarket part somewhere. The missing window could be carefully drilled out, I suppose.

Heard report this evening that people have returned these coaches to at least one retailer for a refund. It seems it is hard to find a coach with a straight black line on it as these two examples show.

The real golden brown is subjective, but referencing photos from the period show there was little difference in colour between locos and Mk2s at that time, 071s dogy tan shade excluded. I think the general consensus at the time of their release was that the CIE tan applied to the MM 141s/181s was an excellent reproduction in model form of the original CIE tan colour. If it aint broke and all that ......

JHB - excellent summary on the different shades of tan/orange. In model terms, there should only be a very minimal or no difference in shade on the MM Mk2's to the MM CIE 141s/181s and 086. The difference in shading is vast, and is something that should have been copped at the pre-prod stage.

As an aside, when did the ends of the Supertrain Mk2's start getting painted all black as opposed to black/tan?

The tendering process has already begun to gauge the cost of re-spraying.

Eoin, that did cross my mind, and might be an option to pursue. I thought MM got it spot on though, with the CIE colour on the 141/181s, 071s and Cravens, so bit of a shame to get rid of the true colour, even if the cheaper option. Spraying the locos to match the Mk2s still makes the Cravens a different colour. Either way, it involves spraying something to get a happy medium. Shouldnt be the case at €56 a pop.

31 was what it would take to do four rakes, with room for a bit of variety between them.

Wrenneire - thanks very much for these photos which answers the question with great clarity for me anyway. As someone who was planning on buying 31 of these babies, I now have to go off and have a serious think about this, as in my mind, these coaches should be a close match or at least very similar to the top 141/181 and 071 in the photo. The colour of these coaches now looks like a half way point between the colour of the IR/IE livery portrayed on previous MM locos rather than Supertrain. To say I am disappointed is an understatement, as personally, If I am to continue with my plans for a CIE era layout, I would have to now add in the cost of a full respray to each coach, which at this point, I am unsure is a financially viable option for me anyway. I am sure that there will be many modellers as happy as a pig in poop with these coaches, but personally, I don't know how MM could get it so wrong this time around. There have been livery issues on previous MM products that could be easily fixed and that I have happily lived with, but certainly none that required a full respray. Disappointed big time.

CIE livery on 071 Class and Mk2s in 1984 -

This photo taken in 1978 shows original 071 livery against the Mk2 orange -

Fully agree Warbonnet. Definitely need to see them in the flesh before a decision is made. As someone who had planned to purchase around 30 of these over a number of months, I will be just a tad disappointed if the shade is more IE orange than CIE tan. If I am not mistaken, the Supertrain shade should match or closely resemble 086SA and the various CIE 141/181s that MM previously released.

Sorry meant 086SA, not 088. Have corrected my original question.

Can anyone confirm if the coaches are the same shade of tan as on 086 SA or the same shade of orange as the previous batches of IE Mk2s? Also, not sure if it's just the photos but is the bottom of the black area not a straight line? Seriously hoping that they are tan and not orange as there is a vast difference between CIE tan and IE orange shades, even if every coach was a slightly different shade in real life.

Are the yellow French style tail lamps available in OO scale?

Might be an option, Noel. Thanks.

You misread my post, Blaine. I am saying people should be able to post any opinion, positive or negative. It is excellent that MM has brought Irish specific models to the scene. However, they are not without their faults. The latest batch of NIR 201s have numbers in the wrong places and in incorrect font. A previous 201 had an incorrect shape yellow front, not to mention the EGV with only hinges on one side and the fact that the sides warp inwards on some of them. So should we not be able to highlight faults such as the ones that I have listed on the forum?

It's everyone's choice at the end of the day if they want to purchase or not purchase. However, I think it's bang out of order to basically be telling people on a discussion forum to keep their mouths shut if they don't have good things to say or aren't frothing at the mouth about the new releases. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Would have thought IR intercity version would have been a more popular choice of livery to release, considering you can still buy CIE blank/tan Cravens and 141/181's from dealers years after they were first released.

As listed. Think Irish Railways Today book was sold. Would have to check.

Looking for mint condition Murphy Models MM5609 and MM5407 if anyone has a spare or looking to sell. Thanks.