Ironroad

Excellent news; and hope there is sufficient interest to make this a reality. Indeed 'Winged or Flying Wheel" is the proper description of the logo, although while CIE should have known better and the later logo probably deserves the description of "broken wheel" it should really be referred to as the "Roundel".

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/dapol-issues-product-recall/

More that seem too good to be true, the alleged stock levels are staggering. https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=13512 https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=5898 https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=7873

This may be of interest to some, again very keen price !!! https://comoda.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=35094

Yes one of the hazards of contracting manufacture in China particularly for smaller businesses. Spend a little time on ebay and many things on offer directly from Chinese vendors will seem suspicious albeit in this case they seem to have supplied a Spanish retailer. However, even if a lawsuit is successful I doubt it could be pursued to the level of the customers, it being more likely the terms would be that that the owners/designers of the products would be awarded compensation for those sales. Although I suspect enforcing a judgement might prove difficult, not to mention the dilemma faced by those contracting manufacture of finding alternative producers.

I appreciate the thought and as a US resident I'm aware of this retailer. However they are very expensive and all things considered I find Hattons are a better bet even from this distance..

Bundle ordered, thank you for listening

Are these the same customers that missed out on the liners because they kept their money in their pockets? So they get catered to rather than those who demonstrated and kept faith in you. As I was trying to say in my initial post you need some mechanism to cater to advance ordering. There will always be delays we all know that. Thank you

Hi Fran, while I can appreciate the issue from your point of view, I have been quite happy to pay on pre-ordering up front for fear of being left out in the cold in the rush when items do become available particularly if for any reason I'm otherwise distracted. Have you considered the concept of accepting advance orders without payment or even a commitment to pay as Hattons do. They simply send those who have expressed an interest an e-mail when items become available and you can proceed with the order or not at that point. I would have thought that some form of advance ordering would be useful to you in determining demand.

Hi, jhb171achill, that was my enquiry and the thread was “Bachmann Irish Train Set” in the “For Sale or Wanted Forum”. As I think I commented in my last post in that thread we were getting out on a tangent but there is a link to instructions in that thread on converting the Bachmann N class loco to DCC that I think you were interested in. Here it is again http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmannndccinstr.htm Many many thanks for taking the trouble to investigate further the question of the liveries carried by the Irish K1 & K1a class Woolwich Moguls. The reason for my question was to establish the authenticity of the liveries produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models and whether there were others that I might indulge in. So taking the data in table you’ve presented together with what has been said previously we can probably sum up as follows; Originally all went into service in Grey and in some cases that Gray survived to at least 1956. From about 1947 CIE started painting them Green, as produced by Bachmann/MM and maybe retained this to the end of their days but this is not certain. Some may reverted to Grey or even Black. From 1956 some were painted black (presumably those with original grey livery that had not been painted green). The Bachmann/MM model of no. 383 in flat black is therefore probably correct In the late 50’s one, was painted a gloss black with red lining and used on the Cork to Rosslare service. The Bachmann/MM model of this is numbered 388 but an earlier post noted this as being no. 384. Beyond this Mike84c posted a picture of his weathered version of this model which was originally featured in a forum (A weathered Woolwich and a couple of vans) back in 2015. This appears to be in a green livery with red lining and to quote Mile 84c from June 2015;- I did base the loco on a couple of pictures in Irish Railways in colour 1947-1970 No 378 features twice but I think the dirty patches look black &light grey on the boiler&cab with brown below the running plate. A pal thinks its brown! colour is in the eye of the beholder!!! So is this a variant of the green livery? All in all from a modeling perspective there is probably sufficient license to run Grey, Green and Black together. Other points of interest established in these threads: Originally these locomotives had a flat smoke box door and over time these were replaced with the GSR dished style door some with and some without a wheel handle. It is unlikely that any of the original flat doors survived into the 1950’s. The smokebox door on the Bachmann/MM model is the flat type and those of us who are more particular may want to replace it. In the earlier forum minister_for_hardship posted the following pictures of all three door variations and one of these shows no 383 with a dished door and wheel. For those interested in making modifications Mike 84c provided the following information. Narrow Planet do the GSW cast number plates, I have used several and they are very good. Check the website. Southeastern Finecast will sell a white metal cast Wainwright pattern dished smoke box door and I think Andrew at 51L has etchings for the circular GCR/LNW pattern smoke box door handles. The Bachmann/MM model represents the K1 rather than the K1a given the K1a had larger driving wheels. KI driving wheels were 5’6”, K1a driving wheels were 6’1”. KI’s were numbered 372-391 and Kia’s were numbered 393-398. The number 392 was not assigned. The first one was built by the MGWR and was assigned number 375 by the GSR; this locomotive was involved in the fatal crash in Cahir in 1955. One thing I’ve noticed from photographs is that unlike the British N class the Irish K1 class does not appear to have steps to the footplate fitted at the front (behind the buffer beam). These were not fitted to the model as presumably they may present a problem on tight curves but were included in the accessory pack. This posting is in part an attempt to summarise some information on this website that is pertinent to these locos but is by no means comprehensive. There is a mine of information on all manner of Irish Railway stuff buried in this website, is anyone brave enough to collate it? As Mike 84c observed; Mind you finding the info again in the dim and distant future can be a challenge!

Many thanks JHB for that very comprehensive answer and it delights me to know that the green livery on this model is authentic and that there is a reasonable possibility that the flat black livery may also have existed in the late ‘50’s. You also note that one had a special livery for the Cork Rosslare Service (Green with Red lining) as nicely modeled by Mike 84C (no 378) above. But I still have it fixed in my head from somewhere that one was painted a gloss black lined in red as modeled by MM and so I went off on a Google search and came full circle by finding that the K class locos have been the subject of discussion at least twice previously on this website in 2012 and again in 2017. In a posting in 2012 you noted that no.384 was painted black with red lining. So would it be fair to say there were potentially 5 different liveries in the 1950s albeit not at any one time with two being unique to individual locos:- grey, two 2 variants of green, lined black and plain black. I’m conscious that we are going off on a tangent on the subject matter of this thread and this seems to have happened in 2017 when Garfield intervened. Thread created in 2017 MGWR/GSR K1/K1a class (Woolwich Moguls) Quote from Garfield July 7 2017 Hi folks, I've split this conversation from the thread in the 'for sale' section. Can I respectfully remind you all not to derail (pun intended) such threads with tangential discussion. Thanks! Perhaps this would be appropriate to do again but also consolidating these threads. There is also a thread from 2012 covering the 1955 beet train crash in Cahir involving no 375 of this loco class. Thread created in 2012 GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery What follows was written by JHB171achill December 8 2012 Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives. In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over. In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows: 1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc. 2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train. 3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines. 4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage. 5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box. 6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance. 7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails". 8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white). 9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black. 10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later. I hope this is of interest. It is indeed

Thank you much appreciated

Here is a link to instructions on converting this loco to DCC http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmannndccinstr.htm I'm aware of your expertise on liveries, so may I ask if any of this class was ever painted green (per the Bachmann/MM version). I believe one may have been painted a gloss black and lined as per Bachmann /MM but is the plain matt black version produced by Bachmann/MM correct or was it in reality grey that had weathered to a dirty black. The model certainly looks the part and in my vague memory of Irish steam locos they appeared to be black. I'm thinking you are right and will probably do this at some point although if you have/find a 1950's photo of one with a flat door that would be convenient. thanks

Very interesting thank you. So did any flat doors survive into the 1950's? Otherwise it looks like I'll need to consider a bit of butchering.

A correction is needed to my original post as I stated O scale is 7 mm to one foot ignoring the fact that there are different standards in the UK, US and Europe. UK O scale is 1:43.5, Europe except France is 1:45 and US is 1:48. The track used by UK O scale 36" 'narrow gauge modelers is O21 which is 21 MM gauge but to my knowledge no one makes track for this market which is a pity as it could be a good solution for Irish OO. The track used by US O scale 36" narrow gauge modelers is On3 which is 19.2 MM gauge and there is at least one producer in the US of this track in 1m flexible lengths and they also supply left and right points (no 6 which are 9.5 degrees at the frog-same as Peco code 83 whereas Peco code 100 and code 75 points are 12 degrees at the frog) While this is still not 21mm it is a lot better than 16.5 mm gauge and even better that EM or Scale4 for the purposes of representing Irish broad gauge in OO scale. And I'm curious if anyone has considered this and what the pros and cons may be. As to the proportions of the rail and sleepers. I have not seen or inspected this product personally but the rail is advertised as code 100 which is the same as most of us are already using. I would note that while code 75 maybe preferred by some I think code 83 is closer to the Irish standard. As regards the sleepers, since the sleepers of prototype narrow gauge track were/are proportionally smaller than the sleepers used on standard gauge or broad gauge track I suspect the proportions of On3 track may be acceptable.

Maybe and maybe not. A smoke box wheel was included in the accessory pack of the black versions of the K1 produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models. It was not included in the train set marketed in the US. But correct positioning may be tricky because there is no hole in the centre of the firebox door to allow accurate easy fixing. In doing some research I've seen photographs of the K class with and without a smoke box wheel so this raises the question which ones were fitted with a smoke box wheel and which were not? Does anyone know? I've been hesitant to fit them.

I don't think anyone is producing American OO and I think those that still use this are a small niche. This may seem a bit wild but has anyone considered On3 and what are the pros and cons. On3 is 7mm to 1ft (O scale) of prototype 36” narrow gauge track so the model track is 19.2 mm gauge and a bit closer to the Irish 21 mm gauge than either EM or Scalefour. The only supplier I’m aware of is San Juan Car Co who produce On3 code 100 flex track and a couple of points. http://sanjuancarco.com/track-and-accessories/.

I did not know Kilroy Bros distributed model trains or toys. I remember them as distributors of electrical appliances, and specifically remember they distributed Bush Televisions. If memory serves me correctly they were located on Liffey St, on the site currently occupied by Marks & Spencer.

Thank you both. Colour of the doors certainly isn't an issue but the colour of the stone is another matter and inclines me to continue the search. again thanks

My father told me a similar story, in which the bull got wedged in the hallway of a house. The abattoir being positioned at the junction of Blackhorse Ave and the Nth Cir Rd was unfortunately probably too close the the cattle market itself and no doubt the smell may have caused animals to panic.

Yes I remember. There were a lot of horse drawn carts in Dublin but the CIE carts were well maintained and whereas most other carts had iron rims and made quite a racket particularly on cobble stones, the CIE carts with inflated tyres seemed very smooth and silent by comparison. CIE horses always looked bigger and in better shape than most of the other nags, an exception being the Johnson Mooney horses that pulled two wheeled covered bread vans stabled at the back of Fitzgibbon St. I used to make a point of passing the Blacksmith's in the lane behind Temple St Hospital on my way home from school and spent a lot of time watching him, the smell is still in my nostrils. I also remember processions of very high sided red coloured carts with two outside wheels that seemed to me to be be six foot in diameter rolling down Dorset St and Bolton St piled high with vegetables coming from Nth County Dublin to the City Market . I have a vivid remember a horse bolting on Mountjoy Square after a lightening flash and thunderclap. Yes there was a lot of horse manure on the streets but the worst of is was cow dung on the North Circular Road on Wednesdays. I think a few horse troughs still exist , isn't the one on Cavendish Row, near the Gate Theatre/Ambassador still there?

I'm resurrecting this thread because there's a question here that I don't think was answered. Does anyone know if there Is there any difference between the Bachmann Scenecraft models 44-063 and 44-252. The latter 44-252 was marketed as an Irish stone station building and was based on the old booking hall in Clonmel. This model is almost impossible to find, and any that turn up are very overpriced.. 44-063 was marketed simply as a stone station building and appears to be identical to 44-252, or is it?, for example is the stone colour the same? l think this model is still available from at least one retailer at an acceptable price but I'd like to be sure. Thank You

At some point in the future if and when I build another layout I will probably opt for Peco code 75. However, I'm currently using Peco code 100 points with Atlas code 100 flexible track. I prefer Atlas for two reasons; (a) it is easier to keep straight when laying straight runs and (b) the sleeper spacing is more realistic. When deciding on the track code keep in mind that older stock may not run on code 83 or code 75. Code 100 is fairly universal so if you have any Hornby Dublo favourites you want to run occasionally for sentimental reasons. you may want to stick to code 100.

As regards the logo used by the DUT and CIE, both my father and grandfather worked for CIE and they always referred to this logo as the "FLYING WHEEL" which is what it was intended to represent. It seems to me that referring to it as a "snail" is derogatory and it never ceases to disappoint me to see this perpetuated.

My thoughts exactly, wasn't sure what to do with them