Mol_PMB

In response to your post I have had a look at the photos of these. They are remarkably complex and the frame and axlebox arrangement is very unusual, which would be a challenge in most scales. Although the main frames are plate frames the full height of the loco, the axleboxes are mounted in a separate set of bar frames which may form part of the suspension. The locos are also tiny. What scale/gauge combination were you thinking of? The prototype was 1'10" gauge and because of the position of the wheels immediately inside the frames and the transmission arrangement with vertical rods you couldn't use a track gauge wider than prototype without affecting the whole shape of the loco. 7mm scale on 12mm track? In that scale it ought to be 12.83mm but 12mm is an established gauge and would allow slightly broader wheel tyres. Or you could have something a bit bigger: Guinness loco G3

Just a thought. Arguably, Phoenix is missing from that list. So are the surviving narrow gauge Guinness steam locos.

I found this quite useful summary of the survivors, for anyone trying to list the intervening types: https://trainstobeyond.com/irish-preservation/

In the Hunslet video there was a teaser about the Peckett... But there are 40 major railway exhibits at Cultra, lots to choose from, including some nice small and medium-sized tank engines.

As yet, I haven't found a photo of an 800 hauling a Park Royal, but I'm sure it happened. I'll say it again, the triangulated underframe under the Park Royals would form a perfect basis for some of the other CIE 1950s carriages, like the first one in the photo at Mallow in the post above. With tongue firmly in cheek, there's only one thing missing from this train now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409908/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409843/ And with tongue even more firmly in cheek, are you sure you've made number 800 the right shape? I'm no expert on these locos, I'm just looking at photos: Thurles 1961, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53453950801/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468545416/ Inchicore 1963, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505733957 Amiens St 1964, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251716485

Generally they were used on the heavy trains on the Dublin-Cork main line, such as the day mails. They would be formed mostly of bogie stock but a variety of types and styles including GSWR, GSR and CIE types according to date. Here's 801 in CIE days with a rake of 1950s CIE stock: But in 1946 it was a right old mix of stock: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511573460/ This is a reasonably modern rake apart from the mail van, but includes some GSR passenger coaches as well as CIE: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511881435/

An eBay purchase a few weeks ago on this theme - a nice clear slide of 25075 in orange livery, green-carded at Limerick: This wagon was in the second batch, and would have been delivered in grey livery in 1965. The photo dates from 1979 by which time it had been repainted with orange tank and grey frame, and then had a chance to get fairly grubby. Reviewing the list of 10 items as I did up-thread: W-irons: These are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. Other details at the braked end: Difficult to see in this view, but it seems to be just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: 25075 carries tank number 075; it has been renumbered from the original. Handbrake: this is a hand lever. However, it's not the later standard type - it has a Morton clutch on the vee hanger, rather than reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. What's particularly useful about this photo is that it clearly shows the as-built brake configuration of the second batch, which was different from the other batches and was later modified to match the last batch. One day, when I get through my wagon backlog, I plan to modify an IRM bubble to represent this batch.

I could be tempted - my willpower is about as strong as a chocolate fireguard and my bank account has just swerved a major expense at IRM towrs! On the other hand I do have quite a backlog of stuff to build, so no rush. How is your re-stocking programme going? Is the 10t brake van this type? I must confess I haven't yet found any photos of them still in use in the 1960s but then I haven't looked everywhere yet; there are a fair few photos of them in the 1950s but I guess most were replaced by the 30t brakes built in 1960. N.B. the colour photo above shows van 8554 with 'eau de nil' lettering. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429200 Hopefully there are still a couple of those GNR 10t goods vans with my name on them too. I quite fancy doing one of them in this rare 'snail on brown' livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990

Well here are a couple of opportunities for limited editions... Compared to the normal Black'n'Tan livery, this has a thicker white line, and the orange band isn't as deep, resulting in the running number being on the black portion: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54373564366 Whereas this one has a normal orange band but the painter got really carried away with the white paint. What a find! Thanks IRRS Archives :-) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54372688542 I think this is the first item of railway rolling stock I have seen carrying the block lettered C.I.E. that was used on road vehicles and containers for a couple of years between the snail and the roundel. On the Park Royal it's part of a slogan, but the C.I.E. is in a different typeface to the rest of the slogan, similar to that used on contemporary containers, as seen here: Also note the class numbers on the doors on both of the above Park Royals, which could be seen in the early 1960s on both Green and Black'n'Tan livery. Here's one of Ernie's photos of a green Park Royal with class number: Also from Ernie, a more typical Black'n'Tan livery with class numbers: Hopefully Railtec will produce us some transfers for these, in the appropriate colours for the two liveries.

Beta-testing comments... Threading the rail through is very easy. At first I thought it was too easy and that the rail wouldn't be held securely enough, but once it's in it seems to stay put and there is good resistance to rail roll or gauge spread. So that's all good. The gauge is nominally 21mm or perhaps very slightly over - it might be closer to 21.2mm. Better to be wide than narrow, it will help rigid wheelbases on curves. Also good. The top faces of the sleepers are slightly textured as a consequence of the manufacturing process, and there are some minor blemishes, but actually it looks pretty much like wood grain with the odd knot hole, and I think that once installed it will look much better than a perfectly smooth surface. Again, a consequence of the manufacturing process is that there are very fine plastic 'hairs' sprouting from the moulding in places. As yet I haven't found a good way of getting rid of these - they are extremely fine. Any hints from the other beta-testers would be welcome! Regardless of that last minor issue, this is a very quick way to produce 21mm gauge flexitrack. Bravo!

Just a note on the numeral style on the front of CIE diesels in the supertrain livery, since it came up elsewhere. On 141/181 class, the number on the front was on an orange background, and the early repaints in 1972/73 used wider numerals with a seriffed 1, white shaded black, the same as on the sides. Later repaints had narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. Locos with the shaded serif style included: 141, 148, 156, 158, 160, 163, 173, 175, 182-190. It is possible there were a few more, but of the 141 class they were a minority. Some of these locos were still carrying this style in 1980, others had been repainted and received the unshaded numerals. In fact Ernie's photo of 141 shows it still bore this style in 1982: However, many of the 141s stayed in black'n'tan until 1975-77 and these locos had the unshaded numerals from the start. Here's 167 in 1977, fairly freshly repainted in supertrain livery - it had been BnT until then: On the 001 class, the number on the front was on a black background, and the first loco repainted (001) had numerals in white shaded orange. A few other early 001 repaints appear to have had the narrower sans-serif numerals, with orange shading - here's 044 with what appears to be that scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510419722/ Other repaints had narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. 002 and 031 were two of the earlier repaints of 001s in 1973, and are seen here at Inchicore freshly painted and not yet released to traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569590047/ 008 was another early 001 class repaint in 1973, and was destroyed that same year. Here is the hulk, again it has the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511314466/ 003 and 004 were repainted around 1974, and are seen here in 1977 looking a bit tatty, with narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: 211, 215 and 233 were early repaints of the former C class in supertrain livery in 1973, and they had the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. Here's 215 in 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570883400/ The earlier 101 class repaints and had a different variation - the wider numerals with seriffed 1, without shading (or it might be black shading on black paint), here's 107: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644283/ The early 121 repaints seem to have been similar, wider numerals without shading, here's 122 in the mid-1970s: And here's 123 with the same type of number in 1975, alongside 176 with the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570770699/ As yet I have not found any photos of 101, 121 or 201 class locos with orange shaded numbers on the front. There may have been a few - can anyone post a photo here to prove it? Later, the cab front numerals on all classes were standardised on the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading, though there were a few odd exceptions with mismatched numbers.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that then. My study of hundreds of photos suggests otherwise.

Very briefly, the industrialisation of the Irish turf harvesting started in the mid-1920s, at Turraun, using German equipment on a fairly small scale. This used a narrow-gauge railway with 2 locos and 24 wagons. It proved uneconomic but continued in use for a decade or so. Lullymore was the next bog developed, by the Peat Fuel Company in the mid-1930s. They also constructed a briquette factory. Their equipment was mostly designed and made in GB. At that stage a lot of the machinery was still experimental, although some turned out to be very successful, such as the giant Garrett Disc Ditcher of 1935 (that behemoth on the front cover above). It's important to note that once you have started to develop a bog by cutting drains, there is a considerable lag time (several years) before the turf being dry enough to harvest, or indeed before the surface will support anything heavy like harvesting machinery. By 1939 the Peat Fuel Company was in financial trouble, having invested a huge amount of money and not really got to the stage of being able to harvest anything. Meanwhile, the Turf Development Board had been established in the mid-1930s by the Irish government; they had a much wider remit including marketing turf and encouraging hand-harvested turf. But the future was in machine-won turf and they visited Germany and Russia to learn how it was done. They started to develop the bog at Clonsast in 1936, using machinery supplied from Germany (ordered in a hurry as the war clouds were on the horizon). Although the machines arrived, there were many delays in commissioning it and production didn't start until 1939, and produced disappointing quantities that were uneconomic. The German machines weren't ideally suited to Irish conditions. The TDB acquired Turraun in 1935 and Lullymore in 1939, and also started to develop Glenties, which got its first Ruston in 1940. Other bogs where development was beginning in 1939 were Lyrecrumpane, Timahoe, Attymon and Carrigcannon. Some were more successful than others, but none of the bogs were economically successful at this stage. Whilst production did increase during the war, supply of machines and spare parts was near-impossible, and there were a lot of problems. In 1946, the TDB was reconstituted as the BnM and there was a large expansion in the late 1940s and 1950s. The early narrow-gauge locos used in the turf industry (pre-BnM) included: German Ruhrthaler diesels, one of which survives at Dromod. This was built around 1936 and later became LM11. Motor Rail 'Simplex' diesels, details not known, did not survive to receive LM numbers in 1954 Ruston & Hornsby diesels, one in 1939 and two in 1940 (later LM13/14/15) all for Clonsast, also another in 1940 (later LM16) for Glenties. Whitcomb diesel, built 1945 (later LM12) for Kilberry

That's actually very effective. I'd be tempted to try it on something thinner like 1mm MDF.

Mine has just arrived - looks really good! Many thanks @Rob R. I'll try it out later today.

In summary, the main objection is the cross-section. The LMS sides curve in more at the bottom than the GSWR ones. The LMS roof meets the sides at an angle, whereas the GSWR has a tight radius to the vertical. Illustrated below. This is the model cross-section, from a eBay listing: Compare to a zoomed-in crop of Ernie's photo: And this is the preserved first of a similar type, photo by Kieran Marshall: I can see the difference now you have pointed it out, but I'm not sure it's quite as bad as having the wrong number of wheels! Anyway, the objections were so strong that I'll forget that plan. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093/in/faves-50559291@N03/

Superb! lovely work there. A bit of improvisation from bits in stock is always very rewarding, and the result is excellent.

Yes, 4mm scale is small! I have a laser cutter but to do something this fine in card or thin ply would be impossibly flimsy. Hence why I'm looking at etching from thin metal, which is quite possible for something like this. I've always liked these gates but never had a drawing, so your contribution with this thread is very much appreciated. Thank you!

I do really hope that IRM will announce a 30t brake van! John's 20t brakes are superb but no longer readily available, the floor is wide open for the 30t variant!

Work in progress with the simple option, it needs some more black diamonds on the intersections and there's scope for better detail on the quarter-circles. I also need to think about hinges and catches. Dimensions of this gate are 40mm x 19mm in 4mm scale.

For an etch. It's far too fine to be punching out rivets - the metal would become badly distorted. The top and bottom of the gate are 2"x2" angle which is about 0.7mm, the diagonals are 1.25" x 0.375" strip which is about 0.4mm x 0.125mm. We can do that - my E class is etched in 0.25mm thickness nickel silver so a half-etch would be 0.125mm thick and a line thickness of 0.4mm is practicable - some of my grilles were a bit less than this. So the simple option is to ignore the rivets, in which case the gate could be done as a single-piece etch with the diagonals half-etched from one side or the other to give the overlapping appearance. The more complex option is to make the gate in two layers, again the diagonals would be half-etched but this would allow the rivets to be left proud as full thickness. One set of diagonals would be on one layer, the opposite diagonals would be on the other layer, and the top, bottom and verticals would be on both layers. I'd arrange it so that the two layers would be surrounded by a fret that folded, so the two layers would be folded onto each other and soldered or glued together while still attached to the fret (ensuring perfect alignment) and then separated from the fret and cleaned up. More complex, but you get the rivets and the layered detail of the quarter-circles in the corners, and there's also the ability to have the top and bottom rails visibly thicker than the diagonals as they should be. So, the conclusion is that it can be done by either method, one is a bit more complex to make and requires a bigger area of etch. If I was working in 7mm scale I'd definitely go for the 4-layer rivetted variant, but in 4mm scale I think maybe the simpler option is more practical (much as it pains me to simplify...)

Thanks. I think the Mainline/Bachmann LMS ones capture the style better, but the disadvantage is the lack of the corridor third. Though I think a cut'n'shut of bits from the brake third and/or composite would work. The GSWR did have some composites of this style too, but they weren't like the LMS composite so are probably harder to do.

Thanks - some nice stuff there, not often seen. Gypsum and ballast hoppers, plough vans, fertiliser, spoil and keg bogies. I was hoping there might be some cement bubbles but perhaps that was unrealistic! This is quite a good price for a sound-fitted A class; I was tempted but I have several As already: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267179992632

Lovely drawing, and there's a scale along the bottom so I should be able to work out the true size. But I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of the other type if you get a chance - would be interesting to see whether they are the same. I'm sure a gambolling lamb could find its way through any fence or gate into the path of a train. I've certainly run over a few in my time. 4 sheep and a badger, which makes me an ace!

I have an idea for an etch in 4mm. Let me see how practical it is - the detail is rather fine but I have a cunning plan. There are several variants - are people fussy about which sort? I could potentially put a mix of different ones on an etch.