Mayner

Check out some of DeSelbys builds on RM Web https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/3024-de-selby/content/page/2/&type=forums_topic_post Alan has a liking for little and large GN & NCC engines there is content on a GNR S,Vs, U and am NCC Mogul & a Whippet

I would be very wary about using a metal frame if you use a chain saw to cut firewood.

I like your sketches and general approach to modelling buildings, the Wills white washed stonework and wooden lintol really catches the unique character of these buildings. I am a great fan of Wills scenic sheets for modelling traditional Irish buildings Trends in architecture is a bit like generational change in music and fashion, each new generation of architects tend to rebel against the established styles of architecture by developing new concepts, although it sometimes ends up in building failure. Builders, structural and civil engineers then try to convert these concepts into reality not always successfully.

Some GSWR 12T brake van continued in service mainly on branch line duties into the 1970s, the older dark grey and GS(GSWR) lettering bled through on some wagons as the CIE grey weathered away. The majority of Midland goods brakes were of the drovers caboose type with raised cupola up to the introduction of more modern 20T brakes in the early 1920s. The 1874 type (complete with wooden brake blocks) appears to have remained in service up to the late 1930s, there is also an 1890 type similar in general styling to the horsebox and fish/meat van with the framing hidden by exterior planking and cover slips I am not aware of a drawing of photo of this type in the public domain. There was a later 1912 6w 20T type with the drovers compartment sandwitched between a guards compartment at each end. I don't know too much about Dublin & Meath rolling stock, its possible some of the locos and stock were sold to the Ennis & Athenry when the Midland took over working of the Meath Line, or Richard may simply have liked the look of the van. A Cork Macroom Direct Railway wagon operated on Castlerackrent although that railway operated in splendid isolation from the Irish railway network for most of its existence. The availability of original builders drawings from UK museums and libraries seems to have influenced Richard Chown's decision to model the WLWR rather than the Midland, despite a lot of prompting from Padraic O'Cuimin. The Ennis and Athenry was a bit like a more successful Bishops Castle Railway, forced to work its own line with second hand equipment after negotiations with the Midland fell through, then taking on the operation of the Athenry and Tuam line ultimately to be rescued by the Waterford & Limerick with Great Western support.

The Belgian hopper wagons were bought mainly for use on North Wall-Broadstone loco coal trains, although 2 were allocated to the p.w the p.w. dept the MGWR already had a hopper ballast train and plough brakes dating from the easrly 1900 similar to the GSWR & GNR. The MGWR re-organised its p.w. department to work with the new Bretland re-laying train in the 1920s and sold 15 ballast hoppers and two plough vans to the DSER before the amalgamation. There is a 1939 Charles S Bayer photo of 591 approaching Liffey Junction from North Wall train of 8 laden coal hoppers and a goods brake van in the IRRS London Area publication Irish Railways in Pictures no2. "The Midland Great Western line" , 591 was recorded as making "very labored progress" with the heavy train on a steeply graded section of line. CIE appears to have used a motley collection of open and ex GSWR hoppers on Broadstone loco coal trains during the 1950s. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=broadstone&type=AllFields&submit=FIND

I wound not blame the GSWR influence entirely for the end of polished brasswork and removal of brass name and number plates while an ex GSWR man was in charge of Inchacore, the GSR Board and senior management was largely dominated by ex-MGWR men, including the Chairman, General Manager and Chief Financial Officer. Apparently there was a GSR committee during the 1920s tasked with achieving savings by hunting down name and number plates for re-cycling as bearing brushes and other parts in the brass foundry. David it would be simple enough to backdate the Tyrconnell J26 into an E by replacing the funnel and smokebox door and wrapper. The MGWR re-built the E Class with new boilers, conventional smokebox doors and shorter cast iron funnels from 1911 onward's, the majority of 554 or J26 class retained their flush MGWR style smokeboxes and cast iron funnels until replaced with Inchacore style built up chimneys and pop riveted smokeboxes during the 1940s. The seem to have continued in use on short feeder branch lines such as Athboy and Killeshandra at least until the late 30s or possibly the ending of regular traffic on these lines.

I am finally getting around to the mechanical assembly of 52 Class No1. The supply of small Mashima motors appears to be drying up so No 1 is being fitted by a small coreless motor supplied by Chris Gibbons of High Level Kits, the loco will have my usual arrangement of a High Level Road Runner+gearbox should she get to strut her stuff on the main line. I decided to fit conventional wiper pick ups to the loco rather than my usual arrangement of "American" style pick up through the loco and tender frames with the wheels shorted out on one side. The Alan Gibson loco driving wheels are quite spindly and I didn't want to risk a wheel running off true as a result of fitting fine brass wire between the wheel hub and axle. Chassis with driving and bogie wheel sets set up for final assembly & coupling rods ready to be opened up with a broach to fit the crankpin bushes. The cylindrical object on the left is a 21mm gauge back to back gauge bought from TMD the predecessor of Studio Scale Models many years ago. The loco mainframes in the background are for a 551 Class (Midland E) 0-6-0T , I assembled and painted the chassis about 4 years ago, but has been dismantled for painting in GSR Grey, the chassis was originally painted in Railmatch Weathered Black my original match for GSR grey, but does not match the grey matched from a sample of GSR paint. I decided to fit a mounting plate for the power pick ups using a pieces of scrap nickle silver mounted between the frames above the ash pan, with 10BA bolts for securing the actual pick up plate. I tapped two holes in the plate 10BA with a tap mounted in a pin chuck. Bolts screwed into the plate then soldered in position before fitting to chassis. Pick up mounting plate soldered to frames with solder fillet Underside of frames showing fixing bolts for pick up plates, these will be trimmed to length when the pick up are fitted. I originally assembled the loco with a compensated chassis with a fixed rear and rocking leading axle, unfortunately the hornblocks and axles were slightly out of square. I un-soldered the hornblocks on one side and re-aligning the hornblocks using an assembly jig and coupling rods to ensure that the chassis does not bind. Something from the Dark Ages Possibly my last scratch built loco 567 dating from the late 1980s, the body is in plasticard on milled brass main frames. 567 formerly Ln Class Duke seems to have been the prototype for rebuilding the Midland Standard Goods, but although considered a success no further members of her class were re-built and the loco was withdrawn as non-standard following the Milne Report in the 1940s. Like the prototype my model of 567 included parts from an older locomotive in this case the mainframes, wheels and motor intended for a Dundalk Newry & Greenore 0-6-0ST, I originally planned to build a DNGR tank using the body from a GEM Crew Special Tank and a set of Alan Gibson milled main frames. I abandoned building the DNGR tank as it would have been easier to scratchbuild the loco than re-build the GEM kit as a 21mm gauge Irish loco. I assembled 567 in plasticard as I was living in a shared falt at the time that was not exactly conductive to kitchen table metal working. To a degree the chassis was almost "state of the art" by the standards of the time with beam compensation, Magib wheels and an Anchorage DS10 motor with a cast brass gear cradle, unfortunately she did not run very well a combination of the limitations of the materials and my assembly, though she looked reasonably like an Midland engine of the Post WW1 era. Visually the biggest drawback was the need to cut a chunk out of the boiler and ramp the cab floor to fit the motor and gears Despite loosing some bits and pieces 567 has stood up remarkably well with little evidence of parts warping or twisting or joints failing. In particular the laminated running boards with their 3 ply construction have held up very well with little warping or distortion. The question at this stage is whether to leave her in a display cabinet and build a new loco from scratch or renew the loco in classical Midland fashion like by renewing the loco in motoring parlance by jacking up the number plates and incorporating all the re-usable components into a new locomotive just like the real Duke or 567.

Some of the ex GSWR 333 & GSR 342 Class small wheeled 4-4-0s were built with outside framed bogies as a result of a problem with overheated bogie axle bearings on the 1st batch of the 333 Class as originally built in 1907. The overheating problem on the original locos was solved by changing the bearing oil, despite which the 342s were built with outside framed bogies! The 333 Class were originally built to work the heavy Rosslare-Cork Boat Trains in the early 1900s, they were powerful go-almost anywhere engines the GSR built another 6 in the mid 1930s and took over Dublin-Wexford-Rosslare passenger services when the Woolwich moguls bumped the 4-4-0s from the Cork-Rosslare Boat Trains. The calss seems to have been a favourite for excursions trains, GAA specials and Mystery Trains.

A good example of what can be achieved in 4mm from an etched brass kit. Ian Rathbone & Mike Edge's 4mm model of 800 in GSR lined green livery from a SSM kit. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/152458-gsr-800-class/page/2/

Does anyone remember Dublin & Blessington layout/diorama in the window of the Dublin Tourism O'Connell Street office about 20 years ago? It was a working O Gauge diorama of the tram with a double ended locomotive and double deck coach running through a street scene based on Tallagh Village It was a simple oval of track with a short section of street running through a village with the tram disappearing behind a backscene. The tram seem to run continuously so must have put up a lot of milage when the display was in operation. Another one for Midland Man, I knew one of the Hudson family from Crooksling who operated a business about 40 years ago delivering sand and gravel to building site in Dublin. He told me that before the line closed they often borrowed the local mileman's trolley to scoot down the hill to Brittas or possibly Embankment or Jobestown to go to dances in the local Dance Halls and country houses. The flange on one of the wheels on the trolley was damaged and it used to kick up a racket, he didn't say how they got home the following morning though it was probably the last thing on their mind when they set out the night before. The tram approaching Crooksling summit, Hudson's on the right.

Probably my most striking railway story was experiencing thunder, lightning and snow but not hearing a ghostly whistle or horn of a Galloping Goose Railmotor while exploring Trout Lake on the Rio Grande Southern on 26th May 2016. The weather was clear when we arrived at Trout Lake the thunder and lightening started as we got out to take a picture of the famous water tank and it started snowing as we drove along the track bed to the last of the major trestles. We didn't run into anything though then again we might have been in different time dimensions. We didn't stay to long at high altitude as we didn't want to get caught out in a late spring blizzard in a saloon car without tyre chains. Another great experience during the trip was a shortline crew at Oakes North Dakota interrupting their work and specially firing up a pair of SD45 diesels to switch a pair of boxcars from a soybean plant to the interchange with another railroad. The switch only took about 15 minutes in the biting cold, but it was a memorable experience the SD45s were one of the most powerful diesels of the 60s with very few still in operation, the crew had planned to use a pair of slightly smaller SD40-3 to perform the switch, but fired up the big GMs for a visiting railfan from New Zealand. North Dakota is on the prairie and a little bit flatter than Colorado's San Juan Country

Nice to see a reasonably clear picture of a fitted H van with the brake gear in view. The loose coupled vans were last used in service in the late 70s the Dublin-Tralee goods was the last scheduled goods to go over to Liner Train operation. A final Heuston-Tralee goods ran back into Heuston Station when a coupling broke as the train was climbing the Gullet. The H Vans of a Dundalk-Kilkenny empty keg special were stored on the North Warf sidings in Waterford possibly one of the last uses of H Vans in revenue service. A lot of H Vans and Pallet Wagons were stored for scrapping in Mullingar in the early 80s, most of the Vacuum Fitted H vans were labeled "Hand Brake Only" and the sliding doors were missing from many of the pallet wagons. Unfortunately I did not have a camera with me on the day but I drew a sketch of the sole surviving GNR bulk cement wagon.

The moguls would have been too heavy to work over the Limerick-Collooney Junction line due to restricted axle load. The Limerick Moguls may have worked Limerick-Waterford goods trains. "They were used on passenger and goods trains on the Cork and Galway Main Lines and on the Mallow Tralee Line and on goods trains on the Dublin-Waterford and Waterford Limerick routes while for nearly thirty years they dominated the Cork-Rosslare Harbour route handling enormous boat trains over that hilly graded line" "A Decade of Steam" Jack O'Neill & Drew Donaldson 1972? They also wrote about the ex-WLWR J25 0-6-0 with two based in Limerick, one each in Tuam & Waterford working goods trains between these stations. They were not as strong as the J15s (smaller cylinders) their load was roughly 8 wagons less than a J15 over certain sections (e.g. Kildare-Kilkenny) A Sligo resident J17 234 formerly MGWR 142 Athenry was originally ordered by the WLWR and bought by the Midland following a dispute between the GSWR & Kitson the makers. These locos were to the same basic design as the other WLWR 0-6-0s but with larger cylinders and were in the same load class as the J15 and Midland Standard Goods. Originally based at Mullingar 234 had moved to Sligo by 1938, there is a WA Camwell photo of her shunting at Collooney in the GSR locomotive bible.

You may need a MGWR H Class or 619 Class (J6) 0-6-0 these worked the "Rambler Goods" to Galway & Sligo. The class had 4'9" wheels small for an Irish 0-6-0 and only appear to have worked goods trains in GSR days. A 619 sounds ideal for the heavy slogging of the all stations stopper, while the F Class handled the fast goods only calling at the major stations. The class were a modernised version of a batch of locos originally ordered by the Waterford Dungarvan & Lismore, picked up at at bargain price by the Midland and were re-built practically as new heavy goods locos in the post WW1 era with large superheated boilers and new front ends. Inchacore even considered the locos to be "very good" high praise for a Midland loco! A 619 would be a useful goods loco and make a nice choice for a scratchbuild with its simple outline without curved or stepped running board or crankpin splashers. I have been planning to build one for many years but could not chase down a drawing until a diagram of the 619 Class was recently published in New Irish Lines. I would be tempted to place the motor in the tender with a carden shaft drive to a gearbox on rear axle of the loco and fill the boiler and firebox with woods metal much as I planned for a J5 many years ago. Though I should post a better photo! I guess I should build one for myself!

There is very little published information on MGWR signalling, many of the cabins were destroyed during the Civil War in the early 1920s and replaced with a new design with an imitation stone base, internal staircase, wide eaves overhang and Railway Signal Company frames. Hill of Down on the Dublin-Galway main-line and Multyfarm on the Sligo Road and listed as having McKenzie & Holland signal frames in "Railway Lines of CIE & NIR" ( Oliver Doyle & Stephen Hirsch" 1985.) though the structure of Multyfarm appears to be a post Civil War re-build with the new style of suprestructure retaining its original base and frame. Woodlawn and Galway cabins are typical of the older design of Midland Cabin with modern glazing. The ETS instruments were housed in the station building at some branch terminals including Balinrobe & Loughrea and the lever frame housed in a smaller version of a standard cabin. Loughrea cabin was a post Civil War replacement of the original http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway Stations L/Loughrea/IrishRailwayStations.html#Loughrea_20100118_101_CC_JA.jpg The cabin at Ballinrobe was similar in design to that at Ballyhaunis http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway Stations B/Ballyhaunis/IrishRailwayStations.html#Ballyhaunis_20060526_0009_CC.jpg

Funnily enough the late Bob Clements the authority on MGWR locos told me he considered the X Boiler Midland Standard Goods to be GSR locomotives. The L Class were re-built with conventional cabs and belpair boilers in the early 1900s and looked quite different from the Lm & Ln sub-classes which retained their Atock features. Most of the L & Lm class boilers would have been due for replacement by the 1930s and most of the 573 & 594 Class 0-6-0s were rebuilt with X Superheated boilers All of the Ln or 563 class with the exception of 567 Duke were scrapped in the 1920s, 567 had been re-built as a prototype for modernising the Midland Standard goods and although considered to be 'very good" by Inchacore no further Standard Goods were re-built to a similar standard. Post 1903-4 MGWR L Class 0-6-0 Pre- 1903-4 L Class 0-6-0 ln 567/J16 at Athboy

The L Class were built with low sided tenders with inside springs like 509, some members of the class retained their original tenders through their various re-building though some locos later received larger tenders from scrapped locos. 605 and 610 received larger tenders in later years apparently from scrapped Cusach A & C Class 4-4-0s & B Class 0-6-0s, the larger tenders may have been to provide greater water capacity for working the Ballina Goods west of Athlone. The train ran as a fast goods calling only at the larger stations on the Mayo Line, a Cattle Engine worked the slower Westport Goods which called at all stations west of Athlone taking about 12 hours to reach its destination from Athlone. Oddly 609 has a more rounded cab cut outline than the more angular outline of other members of the class.

Go back to pre-amalgamation days and general goods traffic between the SLNCR & GSWR/WLWR was interchanged at Collooney South via the "Southern Siding" rather than intermittent use for through cattle traffic in GSR days and wagon storage after 1944. The Interestingly the Southern Siding was owned by the WLWR and its successors and the track at least south of the MGWR underbridge remained in place until the "Southern Yard" was lifted. Collooney seems to have been a major originating point in its own right for export cattle traffic via the SLNCR and Midland Sligo Line. CIE introduced a nightly "Shipping Special" to handle increased cattle traffic on the Sligo line following the closure of the SLNCR with most of the traffic originating from Collooney Midland rather than Sligo Quay the station continued to handle cattle traffic into the mid 1970s although Collooney Southern was closed and the yard disconnected by the mid 1970s. Collooney Southern or SLNCR would make excellent models for an American walk around style layout but would be challenging to find a home unless you have a double garage or American style basement

Funnily enough I though CIE had bought some GW Toad brake vans when I first saw a CIE ballast train in the early 70s. The Triang-Hornby vans are ideal for your period as the old style GSWR & possibly GNR vans were the only plough brakes in service until the new steel bodied brakes were introduced in the late 70s and would have run with the new ballast hoppers (IRM Model) introduced in the early 70s. The Triang-Hornby GW van with its two side windows looks very close to the old GSWR brakes, the only thing missing is an Oil lamp on the roof (like a MGWR 6w coach) and the big "ships wheel" on the veranda for lowering and raising the plough. They tended to look quite decrepit in service weathered planking and faded steel sheeting. There is a photo of 8452 in the 79 version of Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR, main difference from the Triang model is the veranda is planked and the van part sheeted in iron.

Holy moley! Three southbound passenger trains and a goods daily over the Burma Road in the 1930WTT , a far cry from the single Limerick-Sligo passenger during CIE days. There are several photos of ex-MGWR C or GSR D6& D7 Class 4-4-0s in addition to the 2-4-0s on Sligo Road passenger trains in GSR days, train consists appear to be short 3-4 coaches and the mandatory tail of non-passenger coaching stock & vans. The ex MGWR F or GSR J5 "Cattle Engine" and Woolwich Moguls appear to have worked the heavier through goods from Dublin and the various ex-MGWR Standard Goods (GSR J18 & 19) handled the lighter goods trains. Most of the ex-WLWR 0-6-0 goods locos were still in service and may have worked north of Tuam to Sligo, there are photos of ex-GSWR "Kerry Bogies" & 52 Class 4-4-0s on Limerick Sligo passenger trains, its just about possible that an ex-WLWR 4-4-2T or 0-4-4T may have worked the Sligo-Tuam passenger train. I don't know if anyone does a Woolwich or a Southern N Class in N Scale, an ex-WLWR 0-6-0 or WLWR tank loco would be a simpler proposition for a scratch build in any scale than a Midland or GSWR loco having a simpler outline with a straight running board. The WLWR 0-6-0s are said to be close to the GWR Dean Goods its just about possible that some may have retained their original Belpair boiler in GSR days. This Sligo thread seems to becoming more infectious that a certain virus, I have been planning to build a Burma or Mayo Road layout for the past 20 years, but Ballysodare-Sligo would give me a plausible excuse to run my collection of GNR, Southern and Midland locos and stock& CIE diesels on the one layout.

CIEs first diesel proposal was heavily influenced heavily by a visit senior management possibly the Chairman & General Manager to the United States and included a single ended diesel locomotive and a luxury diesel tourist train. The American visit and a drive for economy may have influenced CIEs operating methods from the late 1940s to the 70s with many main line services down to one or two passenger/mail trains daily in contrast to the more frequent passenger services under GSR management & the 1946-7 timetable. Its possible that the tourist train may have been influenced by some of the American Streamliners of the 1940s. Its possible the Chairman (ex DUTC?) after his visit to America had the vision of a single daily "Streamliner" setting out from Kingsbridge for Cork with an A and possibly a couple of B units and stainless steel coaches, with through cars for Waterford, Cork Limerick and Tralee, before being brought back to reality by scarce post war resources and dwindling passenger traffic. The delay in implementing the diesel programme and decision to build the first diesel locos at Inchacore was mainly due to the lack of capacity of the British locomotive builders and shortage of raw materials. The engineers at Inchacore basically got it right with the selection of a Sulzer engine and Metrovicks electrical equipment for 1100 & 1101 but the locos were let down by the use of plate frame bogies which were rough riding not unlike similar bogies used in the Southern Diesels, EE Type 4 & Peaks. At the time decision to use plate frame rather than the more satisfactory cast steel bogies used in the LMS Twins and American locos may have been forced on CIE by supply problems and cost with setting up to produce a small number of broad gauge bogies. Has anyone an artists image or a drawing of the proposed twin-engined Sulzers? The twin-engined diesels and diesel Tourist Train are two of the most intriguing might of beens on Irish Railways.

Relevant sections from 1897 MGWR WTT, there are unlikely to been significant changes in train workings and frequency until services were cut back during the Emergency

Love the chicken rooting around behind the distinctive Irish gate. Domestic animals and wildlife are great for keeping the viewers interested on small point to point exhibition layouts, the viewers were more interested in finding counting the birds, rabbits and other small animals than watching the trains on a layout I exhibited at a MRSI Dublin exhibition many years ago

Harry Mulhollands O Gauge Garratt is certainly an impressive loco. I think the Garratt was mentioned in Neil Spinks book, the theory appears to have been to reduce train mileage with one Garratt hauled train in each direction handling all the goods traffic rather than usual two loco hauled trains daily. The SLNCR did not have the money to buy new locos and had to make do and mend with second hand GNR(I) locos for the best part of 30 years until the supply of suitable locos dried up in the late 1940s. Lough Erne and Lough Melvin appeared to have been ordered without the SLNCR having the money to pay for them and were eventually delivered on hire-purchase with the Northern Ireland Government as guarantor. How a Garratt would have fared on a typical "soft Irish day" on the steeply graded and twisty SLNCR is an interesting question as they have a reputation of being slippery in damp conditions with each engine unit slipping in turn as it took up the load. How would the drawgear on the wooden framed Irish Standard wagons used in GNR(I) & SLNCR wagons have stood up to Garratt haulage. The NZRs trio of Garratt locomotives were rapidly converted to 4-6-2 tender engines as a result of problems with slipping and pulling the drawgear out of wagons on the steeply graded twisting central section of New Zealands North Island Trunk Line.

Outside JHBs late 1930s time period but a useful overview of the LNWR station and Holyhead Yard. It would have been difficult to get a decent view of the station and hotel from the North or South Quays as the area (The Campshires) was occupied by large rather brick storage sheds. North Wall Holyhead Yard late 2003. Remains of LNWR train shed and station red building on left distance. New IE Container Terminal offices in new temporary office complex on approaches to LNWR station at left. LNWR Hotel large building with chimneys and dormer windows in left distance. Chester & Holyhead Railway Wool Store large stone building between station and hotel. View from the same vantage point July 2005. Remains of LNWR Train Shed removed rear of LNWR station red brick building visible in distance. Remains of approach roads to LNWR station in use as shunting neck to allow trains from the Belfast Line and North Dublin Loop Line to reverse into the temporary container terminal in the Midland Yard All cleaned up LNWR station and restored Wool Store from North Wall Quay LNWR Station and Hotel. This photo would have been almost impossible a couple of years earlier as most of this section of the quay or Campshires was covered with large brick sheds LNWR Hotel facade cleaned and renovated. For many years the brickwork on this building had weathered to a dark purple similar to GSWR purple lake! The line linking the Interlink linking the Northern & South Western Lines will pass beneath this area and the Liffey if it ever gets built.