jhb171achill

Or Doooostin d'tooorkey..........

Superb! The picture comes alive!

If that stuff was indeed available commercially, I would get some for a mini-layout. At this stage I am too far committed to 00 gauge track and models, with some 20 locos steam and diesel, once my "A"s appear, and maybe 40 - 50 wagons and a dozen carriages. However, I would get one 141 converted and a dozen wagons to do a shunting layout with. If I was starting from scratch, I might sell the car and go full 21mm. So I suppose the answer to the original question, for me, is yes - if within my budget.

I detest “unboxing videos” just about as much as watching tennis, golf or grass growing....... ”Take the damn thing out of the box, throw away all the plasticky bits, put it on the track, and let’s see it go!”

They were! The particular ones you mention were all built in the 1902-1915 period....they had long lives! I've a notion there was at least one old relic from the late 1890s still kicking about then.

Superb memories, Ironroad. Those pics in carriages would have been old GSWR bogies, and the pics were actually originally from the Lawrence collection. I, too, recall a Kildare signalman commenting to my father in disgust, as we watched a train pass from the cabin, and the last coach of which was in the new livery "Ye'd think we'd seen the last of the $%^& black'n'tans...."

You should “interview” him about everything pre-1965 that he remembers and write it down. I only realise now the things I DIDNT ask jhbSenior, who recalled the DSER, GSWR and formation of the GSR, as well as having travelled over virtually every railway line in the country; plus on the occasions I spoke to them over the years, the late Billy Lohan of Tuam, and of course Bob Clements.

I was delving through old issues of "Irish Ralfans News" this afternoon, and found this "snapshot" of the CIE motive power situation as at December 1972, which may be of interest: 1. In December 1972, the last "C" class was re-engine as B220 (thus still black and tan livery, as opposed to recently introduced "supertrain" livery, which was introduced during summer 1972. Was this the last engine ever painted black'n'tan? 2. In traffic: 60 x A 15 x B121 37 x B141 12 x B181 32 x C (now B201) with GM engines 2 x C (now B233 / 234) with Maybach engines 12 x B101 (goods and PW almost totally) The "E" and "G" class locos are not mentioned, though at that stage while all of the former were technically in traffic, theG601s hadn't been used in years, nor ever would be again, and it is not certain that all sever G611s were usable. It may also be presumed that the D class, even if "on the books" were defunct. All of the above locos were officially in traffic, but the following were out of use: B101 class 111/3/4, and B234 and K801. So only nine B101s were available for use, mostly way "down south", and only one of the Maybach "C"s was in use - though it is noted that its use was restricted. The first main line locos had been repainted into "Supertrain" livery. These were 001, 158 and three of the B181s; 183, 187 and 188. Among the last GNR coaches in service - five of them - had been withdrawn from traffic for scrapping, along with some of the last wooden-panelled GSWR stock, eight of them. Meanwhile, in the north, the last BCDR thing on wheels in use, the diesel loco No. 28, was withdrawn and (disgracefully) scrapped in Belfast, as were among the last ex-GNR AEC railcars.

Indeed - very good points all round. Yes, my own personal memories of the CIE green era are actually more bus than rail related; in particular the old no. 10 route! However, I do have some memories of green vehicles on rails, a horsebox being one, and a row of green laminates behind a brand-new 141 being another - but as you suggest not remotely close to being of any use whatsoever to answer this above issue. As it happens, I'll be on the phone tonight to Barry (for a LONG time) in connection with our next joint project and I will ask him where he got HIS info from; he tends to often consult not just his own extremely copious and detailed notes, but his father's, the late Sam Carse. Sam himself took a lot of pics too, though not on the scale of Barry, and all black and white - and with a heavy emphasis of his beloved CDRJC. But that's another story. Of the IRN team, I suspect that the idea of a long list of dark green "A"s might have originated with the late David Seymour, a keen observer of that TYPE of thing. Brendan Pender was another. The only person now alive of these folks is the ever-youthful Clifton Flewitt. I might give him a buzz and see what he has to say. But - Barry's diesel book and the info in it certainly concurs with what my own understanding would have been. As an aside: who, here, would also still have memories of the green livery on trains, or of CIE steam? I can think of two regulars here, but no more........

I would very much echo that statement. In support of the idea is the fact that those who wrote the IRN were very thorough in their research, and any errors I have ever been made aware of are trivial indeed. Moreover, the writers have mentioned specific locos; not generally the stuff of those who haven't done their homework. However, other sources have stated that only one "A" (and one "C") were ever darker green, though I have ALSO heard in the past "A46 and possibly another". I can be sure, though, that no photographs I have ever seen, other than A46, show any loco of the class in dark green - certainly one in five of them seem questionable. Again, I would suggest that Garfield's idea - above - that the writers may have been relying too much on black and white photos might be closer to the point. As for the statement of a late member in silver - while obviously one cannot state categorically that it was not true - at the very least surprises me; I would have thought that painting one like that just as the black was starting would be well known and documented. As Garfield suggests, further information to confirm or deny this report would be of great interest. While I'd be sceptical, at least to a point, it would not be the first time that a livery quirk had gone largely unrecorded, like the C & L tank which just before the GSR took over, was painted lined black by the C & L, only to be covered in grey shortly afterwards.

Never noticed that before! Were they fitted only to the Sealink set?

The first green-liveried diesels seem to be about 1958, having been silver earlier*. Carriages were obviously already lighter green from 1955, darker shade from 1945-55. They started repainting into black’n’tan in late 1962, but it would be maybe 18 months before green was in the minority. Last examples of locos STILL green, that I’m aware of, is about 1966, and carriages 1967.

Yes, absolutely: as well as - C classes in black, black with yellow ends, black and full tan, and green both with and without lighter green waistlines B101 in black, green with and without waistlines, black and full tan, and a livery unique to the class of black and tan but white bits only on the ends G class black and black’n’tan E class black and black’n’tan B141 both with and without CIE roundels on them. Carriages were still a mix, with perhaps a fifth still in green. So, altogether a considerable mixture.

As far as I know, only A46 got the dark green, but one "C" (231) had it too for a short while. No B101 ever did - they were all silver, then light green, then black or black'n'tan. A great time for variety. In, say, 1965, it was possible to see all of the following, alongside each other. A46 in dark green (if it still had it!) Light green with waistline Light green without waistline Black Black and tan (full height tan) Black with yellow panels. - five liveries plus the A46 one.

Superb, Jimmy! I missed that...! An “A” also did a trial run in Wisht Caaark..... I think it got to Skibbereen, but unsure about Baltimore or Bantry....

New one to me! I knew 141s did.... have you details?

Out of curiosity, are all these varieties with a white roof?

Absolutely - the best and most realistic option, and perhaps easier to scratchbuilt than most alternatives. Another possibility, though not so easy to scratchbuild, would be if the UTA, rather than CIE, had ended up with the Sligo Leitrim railcar...

I was discussing recently with a friend the possibilities with "micro-layouts" and Fintona cropped up. It would be perfect. A bit of goods shunting - one loco all that's needed. Obviously the horse tram bit is an issue, but had the place survived, it would have gone goods-only pretty quickly, giving something very like Brookhall Mill indeed - or possibly a single car railcar (like an MPD or BUT car) would do a "passenger shuttle", probably to Omagh. Brookhall Mill is a great inspiration - I have suggested to my friend that he log on here...........

In all reality, as an operational model IN a moving train, a thing like this has somewhat limited prototypical use - but then so does many a thing.

Departmental stock is not my strong point; once something's out of normal traffic, it has always gone off MY radar, but I'm sure others here can fill in the details if I'm missing something. My understanding is that they spent their post-service time in the weedspray train. I am unaware of any other use, but if there was one, it would be perhaps on some sort of maintenance or PW train. As PO vans, their use will be in the 1960s on mail trains, such as Dublin - Sligo, Galway and Cork. They will have travelled alongside other PO vehicles; mail trains generally had passenger accommodation in the form of one coach in latter days. By the mid 70s, four were converted to a standard passenger brake, fulfilling the function of an "ordinary" "tin van". On pages 55 & 78 of "Rails through North Kerry" you can see one of these, showing both the "window" and "non-window" sides. By 1976, at a guess, they were withdrawn. So the two "departmental" ones at least, saw a new life as tool vans. They were painted in the Dublin bus "desert sand" beige colour, rapidly faded with the assistance of weedspraying chemicals. I presume they were painted yellow later at some stage, but I'm not even certain of that. The one at Downpatrick had been out of use for many years - as far as travelling in trains was concerned, anyway; it appears to have been used in a static position at Heuston Station for a long time too. When I mentioned it to the Downpatrick Railway first, it had been sitting in the same position for a number of years, and that was probably five or six years ago. Thankfully it is saved now. Myself and another DCDR / RPSI member have hatched a plan to go up there and work on it, once the lockdown is over; it will make an excellent passenger brake there, and will match the restored Park Royal 1944 very well. It will also be used for carrying wheelchairs / prams / dining car supplies / Santa presents / Easter eggs, etc. As an aside, nearer the time, I will post a note here, to the effect that if anyone wants to accompany us from the Dublin area, we can all go.... Incidentally, the vans that John Mayne is doing are goods brake vans, rather than "tin vans".

The Tool Vans (I think there were two) were or were not “tin vans” depending on what way you look at it! Under what is now understood as a generic heading, there were four variants of “tin vans”; the four-wheeled luggage van and heating vans making up the vast majority. There were four (maybe 6; I’d have to check) 4w TPOs, two of which were eventually converted to passenger brake vans; plus, in 1965, a small number of six-wheeled heating vans. HOWEVER, the railway staff only referred to the luggage vans as tin vans. The others were never called that at all - they were called heating vans or “hot water bottles”. The yellow yoke in your pic is one of two TPO vans converted as such, the final survivor of which is now at Downpatrick. You can tell the TPO ones as they’ve windows on one side only.

Several possibilities, all right. To me, a micro-layout (while it can be successfully operated with one engine and four trucks) is at its best with a modest array of stock to give variations in operations. In GN times, one of the 00 Works GN locos bumbles in and out; it's the Antrim branch engine, and it does a local trip working to the mill, let's say it's about three miles from the station. A railcar can do a run in there in the morning with mill workers; and goes back to collect them later; once a week due to diesel maintanance a steam loco with one brake third does this. In UTA days the same sort of thing. By NIR days, it's a "Jeep", or maybe an NIR "1" class diesel shunter which lifts a wagon off the CIE goods and shoves it in and out - or - the CIE loco does. he leaves the main goods train in Lisburn and shuffles a wagon (container on a "Lancashire Flat"?) or a couple of CIE "H" vans in.... You could even have the MPD car which started the re-opened Antrim branch service in 1976 appearing with an NCC "Brown Van" or a CIE van dropped off the Derry goods...........

Even closer to reality. In the early 1970s, there were still QUITE a few linen mills going - Barbours in Lisburn, one of the biggest, went in into the 1980s at least. And - the RPSI DID make a serious attempt to resurrect the GNR Banbridge - Scarva branch line. They were eventually put off by the cost, estimated to be £250,000..........

Mid 90s and four liveries, yes. While not my era, would be ideal for a “micro-layout” for those with limited space. A thirty year period also helps. They have been used on branch, commuter and even in main line settings (Cork-Mallow currently).