jhb171achill

The "Woolwich" 2.6.0 in the set you mentioned is a nice little thing, and there were a small few of them which managed to make it just into the '60s. To run behind it, the only thing ready to run right now is the silverfox coaches in green. Cravens didn't appear in traffic until literally about a month or two after the last steam engine pulled its last passenger train. There are some nice steam-era kits for carriages from Studio Scale Models, and if you've the time to put in, Worsley Works. For the late steam era, as well as laminates and Park Royals, the "tin vans" are again necessary. But also six-wheelers. To complete the scene, the BIG "missing thing" is AEC railcars, which monopolised many longer distance passenger trains from the early 50s to the mid 60s. In the long term, if we get a tin van, 6-wheeler, and AEC cars, we've got the "grey'n'green" era as well wrapped up as the "black'n'tan" and "Supertrain" and later eras are now.

If it is intended to be in works grey, it's spot on - I had forgotten, but I did read that somewhere too.

I had thought..... some sort of shunting model of either Penrose Quay or Victoria Quay sidings in Cork - where it DID work - would be an amazing model!

Not really! You've GNR designs, which are - GNR.... and the NCC's "somersaults". Neither are like the standard British upper quads at all.... Remember, the railways here were all built before the border was, so there's no "British / Irish" divide. Having said that, the whole Ballyercall looks mighty with either set of rolling stock.........

I absolutely second, third and fourth that. Paddy, you've been an inspiration to a whole new generation of Irish modellers. You've enabled exhibition-standard modelling of the period from 1961 to the present with consistent high quality. Very many thanks from an owner of a 121, soon to be two, a good few black'n'tan 141s, and several "Craven" coaches!

I think the last was about 1943.... They never left Wesht Caaark, of course, but would possibly be a very good thing for a shunting layout; in theory, one outlier might have ended up pushing things about Cork yards, or North Wall to Inchicore, until 1960! Maybe a model of the "Young Offenders" driving and firing it? I'm tempted myself.

I very much like that idea. I have a fondness for Black 5s, and the standard British designs. I'm following the progress of the 3MT project over there in the Republic of Cummins with great interest - a perfect "new-build" branch engine. I am also interested in the "rail blue" era, which I recall from a few holidays in the Federation of Boris in 1970-4.... might gather a few blue things at some stage! Great Pictures, from Ballyercall-in-the-Wolds, County Somerset........!

By the time cattle traffic finished at the end of 1975, most of the stock of cattle wagons had been gathered in Cork for scrapping. I cannot say for certain what proportion was fitted, but certainly there were many still unfitted. Some had been repainted brown after 1970 when the brown wagon livery appeared, but probably two-thirds were still grey. This may or may not suggest they weren't "modernised". The wagon is a GNR van used for cement, I believe. Here, it has newly been repainted in CIE grey with appropriate logo, approximately 1963. Its GNR origin is evident from the tell-tale corrugated ends (also seen on the adjacent vehicle) and the "N" added to its GNR number. On the original of this pic you can also just about make out "G N" on one of the axlebox covers.

Hi Buz OK, the first thing to remember is that these are (British) LMS coaches, using moulds presumably used for such things in the British market. they are unfortunately not even remotely close in appearance to ANYTHING which ever ran on the CIE system. To an Irish modeller, they ARE however of use to a UTA modeller - as they are very close indeed to several designs used by the NCC lines north of Belfast, right to the end of steam and into the early 70s. But not CIE. However, needs must. As many comment here, over and over again, and very rightly so, we are spoiled with the great and increasing amount of ready to run Irish stuff now. But with a small market, and pre-1972, a BEWILDERING array of all sorts of non-standard designs of locomotives, carriages and wagons, even if the market was huge, IRM, Murphy, Provincial Wagons, 00 Works, SSM and all the rest would need to live to be 400 years old before they'd get through half of them. The correct coaches to operate in the Bachmann set would be of an absolute multitude of types, for which it would even be difficult to get drawings to scratch-build, let alone buy off the shelf. So, British repaints are the best realistic compromise. Livery wise, the shades of green are correct, though the line below window level is far too thick and the "flying snails" are a bit too big, and the wrong shape. But I'm nit-picking here, although a rivet-counter will appreciate what I'm saying. For the "two-foot rule", they are absolutely fine. The cravens went into traffic in 1963 and were used mostly on main lines. Some old wooden carriages, like the model, DID still exist in traffic, and as other posts I have made will illustrate, green coaches were in use for a few years more. However, here we run into two problems. 1. Those carriages still operating in green were NOT in THIS livery; this is the pre-1955 darker green livery, same as used on green steam engines, station paintwork, CIE buses, CIE lorries and CIE-just-about-everything. Except, that is, passenger railway carriages and diesel locomotives! A handful of older coaches still retained a much-scruffyish older lined green until the closures around 1961, especially in West Cork - but anything green beyond that was the lighter colour. 2. Some old wooden coaches did work well into the 1960s, and few were still used on Dublin and Cork locals until as late as 1974. But these were repainted black'n'tan. So, in answer to your question, the answer is "not really". Yes, some green ran with cravens when new. But this is the wrong green. Some timber coaches ran with Cravens - but they didn't look like these! Hope that helps, and nobody died of boredom going through it all!

The lamps wouldn't have come from GM - they were locally added, according to the required lamp positioning for whatever train they were operating. Standard railway lamps. In livery terms, they were all repainted black'n'tan by 1969, or possibly 1968. The first to be repainted black/n/tan appear to have been about 1964. Towards the end, the grey got quite shabby looking. During the short period of grey and yellow, a couple received red buffer beams on top of the grey livery in the pic above. During the time these engines were grey (following delivery in 1961), "A" class locos had a number of liveries. 1. A few retained the old silver - by now quite atrociously filthy - until about 1963. 2. A few more retained the green used on carriages, with about half a dozen sporting a darker shade. IRM have reproduced the "normal" green on the model of A30, and the "lesser green" on the model of A46 which was the first to get it. Green engines were to be seen until approximately 1965. 3. Black with full tan sides. This started appearing in very late 1962, with a couple of "A"s being the first to bear it. B101s and "C"s followed, and the first 141s were delivered in this livery. The tan, officially described as "golden brown", but in reality a sort of orange colour, as we all well know from photos, with a heavy brownish tint, came up to waist level. the white line at roof level went right along and round the sides. Some locos carried this right up to 1969/70 when they were re-engined with GM engines. 4. All black. Well, apart from a white flash above window level on cab fronts. This seems to start appearing about 1964. With the Crossley engines, the number of leaks of oil and heavy smoke these things emitted, the orange bit on the sides got filthy quickly. Thus, the all-black livery! This would have been familiar enough, since a few years earlier some steam engines were black, and the grey ones so dirty they often LOOKED black... So this is another overlap with the grey livery. 5. All black with a yellow rectangular panel on the ends. This seems to have appeared concurrently with, or very soon after, the all-black, about 1964/5. The examples above (1), (2) and (3) were concurrent with the first few years of grey 121s. The examples (3), (4) and (5) all lasted slightly longer than the last 121 becoming black'n'tan. In the pic above we see two grey locos, plus the inevitable "tin van" attached to one, probably being added to a passenger train being made up. In summary, the only liveries NOT suitable for an "A" class alongside a grey 121 are: - Re-engine "A" class livery - where the scheme is black'n'tan, with low or high waist, and a number ending in "R"; thus A12R, A5R, A58R etc. - anything orange and black, be it "Supertrain" (1972-87), "Tippex" (white lines added with "set of points" logo), or the same with the "Three Pin Plug" logo. During THESE times, 121s were black'n'tan to 1972, then by degrees repainted in the later liveries. Hope that helps! It might be added that when 121s were new, all carriages were green bar a small few still silver. Cravens didn't exist. During 1963-68, or thereabouts, while 121s were grey, carriages were a mix of green and the new black'n'tan livery. Mid sixties, you're looking at 50 / 50, gradually more BnT, less green.

I'd say this would be a sort of "military" colour, rather than standard GSR grey (which, of course, would be a good bit darker). It's hard to tell from old photos, but much military equipment was of this sort of order, I believe, though others here will know more about military stuff than I would.

It was just a throwback to when there was 1, 2 or 3..... The GSR abandoned second class in the 1920s, soon after its inception. Narrow gauge lines abandoned it early - although few ever had it to start with. The GNR did a few years later. But the NCC kept the three-class system until the late 1940s!

Interesting - I didn't have the exact date either. My guesstimation above is that the UTA were just a bit later? Early NIR tickets still had "second class" on them, I think. So that would make it 1967 or 1968 on the new NIR - can anyone confirm? In terms of Craven livery, then, it may be taken that they ALL had "2" on their doors when new, and after 1965 - or, on first ever repaint if not before - these were painted out.

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

Indeed - in those days, and until comparatively modern times, most railway companies did a summer and winter timetable. For 1938 I have June & September. Ping me what lines you want and I'll send them to you.

Just need the layout for it now, popeye! Soon!

IMG_5030.MOV

Indeed - and it carried on into comparatively modern times, and on NIR as well until the mid 1990s. My personal recollections suggest that by approximately 1972 anyway, maybe before, the "2"s on Craven (and other laminates, Park Royals, etc) were all gone. I suspect they disappeared in the late 60s, along with the last green coaches. A snapshot of the 1960s this evening, following a little jaunt I made to Hawkins Street this afternoon...... The black'n'white photo shows that (in this case about 1960), this short wheelbase coach, I THINK of Wisht Caaark origin, boy, was still in the old pre-1955 darker green. A handful of coaches - mostly, in fact, in Cork - retained this old livery just past 1960. IMG_5025.MOV IMG_5030.MOV

Superb job, Ken, looks great!

That RAL 6037 is indeed as close as anything I've seen. It is extremely hard to be exact seeing these on computer screens, but on a model it looks OK to me. A note on colour matching: I arranged recently for IRM to test actual paint samples in those Fry models which I knew to be authentically painted (most but by NO means all!). IRM appeared with a very complex set of colour samples, obtained at great expense I believe - and we tried to match many things, as simple as CDR red, or CVR dark carriage maroon. We got several matched absolutely authentically, by comparing the colour card with the model - but in a few cases there was still just something which didn't seem to sit quite right on the sample. In my experience, personal memory of those who saw a colour day in, day out, in all weathers and lighting conditions, and especially if they have a naturally artistic eye, seems to beat anything else. However, with RIM's help, job done. Once time permits, if we're not all locked down again, I intend to accompany another greatly esteemed reader of these pages, who has an all-singing, all-dancing Electro-Gubbins Machine which can match colours even more accurately that paint swabs, and who lives not far from me (you know who you are!). We'll do another job on this stuff.... Sadly, Fry's models are either silver, black'n'tan, or the OLDER green. He didn't do any model in the 1955-63 carriage green!

Ah sure we're nearly six times champions now, bud.....we can go anywhere, bud. (Runs for cover..........)

Forgot to add, Patrick, in terms of what coaches were green during the "yellow patch" and "plain" black liveries, a reasonable rule of thumb might be, for ALL types of coach other than Cravens: 1960 Most green, a few silver 1961 Most green, silver very rare and mostly confined to tin vans and a few mail vans 1962 As above, silver very rare 1963 80% green, 20% black'n'tan (End of six-wheelers / start of Cravens which were BnT from new) 1964 60% green, 40% BnT 1965 25% green, 75% BnT 1966 10% green, 90% BnT 1967 5% green, most BnT 1968 Very occasional green, mostly an old mail van or tin van - virtually 100% of all stock BnT 1969 All BnT - Last of the all-black and yellow-patch liveries. 1970 All BnT 1971 All BnT 1972 onwards - all BnT except the new A/C (Mk 2) stock; this was the dawn of the "orange and black" era, and the "Supertrain" livery.

Latterly, to Cabra, but in days past for export too, from North Wall and Maysfields in Belfast, where “Central” Station is now.

I’ll be going through this collection over the winter. It’s not indexed or catalogued, shoe boxes full of old prints, in all sorts of shapes. Some notes of some of it. You’ll get a UTA “Jeep” and then a Dublin tram.... Mostly “grey’n’green” era CIE, though, very appropriate for this thread. As I mentioned, it has to be said that few of the images are much good, so much sifting is necessary! The vans you mention obviously started life in grey. From about 1963 or so they started adding the yellow and black “wasp stripes” to the duckets, with black above and below them. Like everything else they only started painting them brown in 1970, but you are right in that they seemed to repaint more of them, and quicker, before the end of loose-coupled goods in ‘76. By the end, very few vans were still grey. I only ever saw one at that time, in Heuston goods yard (I think) about 1974/5. Green coaches were - in lessening numbers - a feature until c.1967/8, and that did overlap with the “yellow patch” livery.

Hi Hexagon These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it. There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series. A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class. Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green. You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.