jhb171achill

3223 is preserved and in traffic at Downpatrick, and may be photographed and measured there.

Superb production as always - well done Garfieldsghost and Alan.

And yet the T & D only used the garter on their rolling stock! The coat of arms was only used in the boardroom. And for those interested: originally, T & D carriages were a very dark purply brown - probably not unlike the GSWR's "dark crimson lake"; this being replaced after 1925 by GSR maroon. Locos were green in T & D days, all-over grey in GSR days.

Some companies used only a garter - no cost of arms at all. Often, the vehicle number would be inside this. The Dublin United Tramways were one case in point. The Tralee & Dingle in early days used a garter only on carriage sides, but not on locomotives. In Scotland, the Highland Railway had the heraldic shield plus garter on locomotives, but garter only with number inside it on carriages. I'm unaware of any instances of any sort of heraldic device ever being carried, in any shape or form, on any goods stock anywhere in the world! The transfers often contained gold leaf for gold colouring and were expensive to make, which would be the reason for that. Virtually all British and Irish transfers, also British colonial ones, were made by the famous and old established firm of Tearnes of Birmingham.

Incidentally, as far as I remember, the MGWR coat of arms has another unique feature, as well as its numerous puzzling heraldic mistakes; it's the only Irish coat of arms with a right hand buckle at the bottom! Left handed is the norm.

Well, it's years since I took many photos, as anytime I'm on a train for yonks, I'm usually too busy as I'm working on it. But I'll say this here - knowing that many know who I am - unless a law is passed prohibiting photography in a public place, I will never, ever, ever, obey an instruction from anyone whether in any uniform or not, to stop taking pictures. In fact, depending on the circumstances, I'd be inclined to make a point of taking photographs. If the law genuinely prohibits it on the spot I'm standing on, fair enough. Not otherwise.

Possibly, 201bhoy, I'd agree with your points about some well painted; I suppose my real point is that for whatever reason, not as many tourists ask for them now. There'll always be at least a niche market though. Just on a personal basis not my thing.

Indeed..... ".......Oddly, there is no obvious connection between Lord Blayney or his family and the company, and MGWR metals did not reach the family seat in Castleblayney......." At one stage the Midland planned to expand into that area which is why the Kingscourt line was built by the original Dublin & Meath Railway. The line was to pass through Castleblayney, according to but one plan, and end up in Cookstown, where connections would be made with the BNCR. I believe the UTA was actually the one and only company to have its 1963 coat of arms* firms log granted. (* as opposed to its 1949 "red hand" device). County councils, industrial companies, traction engine manufacturers, textile firms, city corporations and tram companies, as well as sone private clubs, used garters (not "belts"! :-) ) to display their names or mottoes.

Pretty rough indeed.... ebay contains many bargains, butalso many rip-offs. On more than a few occasions I have reported "railwayana" artefacts on sale on ebay which are outrageous forgeries / replicas, selling for way more than a genuine article would fetch.

Again, not being funny, but it applies to a number of locations in real life, have it bricked up or used perhaps by PW people. There are actually more potential uses for a non-active shed!

Yes. This was standard Victorian-era artistic style for what we now call a "logo" (which is grammatically incorrect anyway!). Incorrectness is no modern phenomenon, as what the railway companies referred to as "crests" are not crests at all - they are coats of arms, surrounded by a garter (the "belt"). On a full "set of arms", you have the shield and crest. The shield is the device which on railway crests is inside the garter. The origins of shield were colours and emblems on the shields of medieval French, Belgian or English warriors going into battle, in order to identify each side or faction. Once the Normans invaded Ireland, the use of such things spread to the old Celtic chieftains here, and obviously once English rule came in after the Cromwellian invasion, they spread further among the landed gentry in particular. By the time railways we invented, these type of devices were the standard type of identification marks for companies, societies and organisations as well as individuals, and anyone wanting to set up a new company would register their new set of arms with the (still extant) College of Arms in London. Since the creation of Northern Ireland in 1921, and independence of the Republic of Ireland, such matters relating to Ireland are attended to via a government office in Dublin. On a railway coat of arms, the shield device generally incorporates the personal arms of company directors or funders, or those of the localities served. Look, for example, at those of the GNR or GSWR and you'll see what I mean. These are surround by a garter, showing the name of the company; while not strictly part of the armorial device, garters became common in order to identify the name of an organisation. Thus, garters would rarely form part of a set of personal arms. So what's an actual crest, as such? A crest, by definition, is something "on top". If you take away a garter, you're left with the shield. Over centuries, many shields became complicated due to the incorporation of a husband's arms with a wife's, on marriage. To simplify identification, a simpler device, like a lion sitting or standing, for example, was placed above the shield. This would be omitted from railway or other companies coats of arms, as the garter identified the owner instead - and more obviously. If you go to the UFTM in Cultra (or whatever it's called now!) you'll see quite a few. But the best collection of Irish coats of arms by far (and I'm delighted to have been able to assist in their acquisition for there) is in Selwyn Johnston's Headhunters Barber Shop and Railway Musuem in Enniskillen; or just plain Enniskillen railway museum. There are many rarities there, and as a MUST for modellers, most are mounted on boards carrying the original railway company paint. Original CIE gree, GSR or NCC maroon, BCDR maroon, GNR loco blue are all there.

First round's yours, then, Tony! :-)

Could be, Railer; a 201 in Bord na Mona livery, anyone? Incidentally, BnM livery - believe it or not - was possibly influenced by the English GWR, the livery of which an early BnM senior person thought looked well!

Folks, we've 11 confirmed now including myself. One of our number has kindly offered a lift for up to 3 others from Belfast. Another of our number is coming from Derry, so some link up for anyone else up there might be possible. Six are (as far as I'm aware) from the greater Dublin area, so nearer the time when we confirm that all showing an interest are actually planning to go, we can perhaps organise a second car. To hire a minibus for the day would be pricey unless we had maybe 25 people. I'm thinking Saturday 20th June, though 27th might also be an option. Can we say 20th, unless anyone feels strongly otherwise?

Having contacts in tourism myself, I can confirm that the whole "troubles tourism" and "graffiti tours" up the Shankill and down the Falls are not (mercifully!) as popular as they were. Personally, I'd say good riddance to the lot. The north has a lot more to offer than "art" sprawled across walls displaying Neanderthal bigotry.

Can we suspect a maroon livery? This seems quite popular with touring trains of this type elsewhere in the world. A claret-type colour is seen as "traditional". Certainly, in Ireland, it is for all major companies bar the GNR and CBSCR; and they'll hardly be visiting the latter!

Here's what I'm proposing, though it's not hard and fast. If a majority want it altered, or if anyone has any other suggestions for what they might like to see, please email me. For example, if we left earlier and got back a bit later, and were prepared to cough up a donation to the railway of maybe £10 / €15 each, an extra train might be possible with a requested loco as haulage. That would have to be firmed up nearer the time, though, as obviously allowance has to be made for the DCDR's ongoing maintenance and restoration programme. ________________________________________________________________ IRISH RAILWAY MODELLER’S GROUP TOUR TO DCDR Saturday 20th June 2015 The purpose of this trip is for a day out for IRM members, but also for the purpose of having a tailor-made day for modellers to photograph and measure for modelling purposes not only what’s immediately to be seen, but behind the scenes as well. As well as a journey behind diesel and steam (loco allocations permitting), and a possibility of footplate rides in the diesel, the day's events can be specifically arranged for measurement and detailed photography, as well as possible sound recordings. Depart Dublin 0900 Arrive Downpatrick 1200 - Lunch - Initial tour of shed to photograph locomotives being prepared for the day (probably steam No. 1 and either 146 or A39). - 1400 train to Inch Abbey and back; 141 or A class haulage, depending on majority preference I will arrange. Cab rides possible depending on numbers. Return to Downpatrick at 1430. - 1445 Steam train to Inch Abbey and back, returning to Downpatrick at 1515. - Tour of loco sheds to see locos not in use on the day (steam No. 1, three “G” class, C231 and whichever main line diesel is not having a turn on the day. Also viewing the three-car NIR “Castle” class set and the railbus. - Tour of carriage gallery to view steam No. 90 (ex GSWR “J30” class), fully restored BCDR coaches 148 (1897) and 72 (1905, the “Holywood Railmotor”). In addition, several other interesting preserved vehicles including two complete MGWR six-wheelers in unrestored state, allowing participants to view actual CIE green, GSR maroon, MGWR brown and MGWR blue paint. - Tour of ex-NCC signal box. Depart Downpatrick approximately 1730, with stop for food (optional!) en route back to Dublin. We should arrive back in Dublin at about 2030, including time for meal break en route. If the majority don’t need a break, then we’d be back about 30-45 minutes earlier. For participants from Belfast area, bus to Downpatrick and meet up there at maybe 12? There’s an hourly service, which takes about an hour, so a bus at 1000 or 1100 would be about right. Cost: €8 or £6, plus travel costs, all payable on the day, for the two return train trips plus all the rest. For those travelling from Dublin, Drogheda, Dundalk or Newry, a share of petrol money which will depend on how many are going. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ About ten have so far expressed an interest. If more do, it might be worthwhile to hire a minibus in Dublin, or perhaps two other members might volunteer to drive. For information, a typical car uses about €40 of petrol doing a return trip from Dublin to the Downs of Patrick. That's €8 a head and say €4 from Dundalk / Newry. I'm not sure what the bus fare is from Belfast, but the Translink website will, I am sure, be a mine of information on that one!

3 so far....

If you mean the online one, as opposed to long defunct paper magazine, it's still very much up and running, I'm glad to say, though with so little happening on a railway with little freight, few locomotives and railcars from Portrush to Midleton, few people ever post anything there. In fact, it's from there that I lifted the above post this morning. Just google (all one word) irishrailwaynews.

Might be able to get a footplate run in too...... Sssh! Recording possibilities for sound chips possibly? Though don't ask me what way the technology works! :-)

I lifted this from an old post on IRN: It just shows how much has changed in a very short time....... 31/08/2007: 146 - on pilot duties at Inchicore Works (in training for modern-day pilot duties at Downpatrick!) 160 - on pilot duties at Dublin Connolly 163 - on pilot duties at Dublin Heuston 170 - on pilot duties at Dublin Heuston 189 - on pilot duties at Inchicore Works 192 - on pilot duties at Inchicore Works 141+187 worked empty timber from Waterford to North Wall (bound for Sligo) And a few more were out on ballast duties on the WRC!

PM me if interested.

Folks With an eye on other threads relating to working heritage diesels and MGWR carriages, I will organise a tour of the railway, incorporating a trip over the line, on a date which suits the majority of whoever is interested. The purpose will be to allow "behind-the-scenes" access to all areas to facilitate photography, measuring and general research into all that is there for modelling purposes. This would incorporate locomotives, rolling stock, the signal box, and station buildings. Even "yellow machines". Depending on numbers, we'll arrange transport accordingly. The only cost apart from sharing petrol will be a £6 (€8) admission the the railway. If it's of any interest? Date to be confirmed, but probably some time in June, as I'll be up to my eyes after that. I would envisage meeting in Dublin, picking up in Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry, and joining with anyone from Belfast. If the numbers are just one or two and all in Lisburn / Belfast area, I can arrange pick up there too.

Excellent, Jawfin. That is indeed MGWR blue, a truly remarkable survivor. As you can see, the coach remains in extremely faded CIE green. That particular sample is badly faded, however, and there is a tiny spot (possibly on the other coach?) where it can be seen a little better, along with nearby MGWR brown, and of course there are numerous spots on both where not only these colours, but GSR maroon and traces of lining may be seen. If anyone's interested, PM me and the next time I'm in the north I'll try to organise a "guided tour" of the place for any modellers who want to come along or meet.

That'll be the first purpose built observation coach in Ireland, presumably....