Self propelled cranes and small coasters

[David Holman]

Been pondering on the above as a possible project for a while, so thought it time to try tapping into the immense resource of this website - note flattery! Seem to remember Fenit pier had several rail mounted cranes, but were there any other places? Also wondering if a smaller, wagon mounted crane, pushed/pulled by something like 'Pat' from the elevated track in Cork might be appropriate. Any pointers welcome.

 Likewise any info on small coastal ships that might have plied the west coast. Around the size of a Clyde Puffer, which works out at about 50cm x 15cm. Anyone would  think I'm looking into creating a small harbour scene...

[Galteemore]

You’ve been looking at Port Lairge Wharf, haven’t you ?! Sounds intriguing….

These fine fellows are in Belfasthttps://maritimebelfast.com/our-heritage/steam-cranes/ , and ran on a quayside rail system 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Just remembered I asked about Puffers a while ago, but any other craft, including West coast fishing boats would be of interest.

[Northroader]

[KMCE]

David,

For boats, try here http://www.tradboats.ie/index.php  I found it a really good source of information, particuarly on small to medium boats all around the coast.

 

When you mention self propelled cranes, do you mean a locomotive converted / built as a crane, ala the NIR version (with the hole in the boom for the chimney), or a self powered steam crane to run in a rake of wagons?

 

Ken

[David Holman]

Thanks Ken. The crane I'm thinking of is a self propelled one, running on its own length of quayside track, to help unload said coasters. We have a couple outside the Chatham Club room - vertical boiler on a simple four wheel chassis, with a basic bombshell around the mechanisms. A bit like 'Pat', with a jib.

[Northroader]

There’s a crane a bit like what you’re after in this old picture of Westport Quay. However, I’m struggling to make out if it’s mounted on a mobile carriage, fixed down on the dockside, or even mounted on the backend of some sort of lighter. There’s also about the smallest size of steamer with holds fore and aft of a central machinery compartment, but I fancy it would be oversize for a microlayout.

[Mike 84C]

Northroader that is a fantastic picture  of Westport Quay.  I wonder if that is a flour mill and who owned it? because that looks like a vacuum evacuator, used for unloading ships, up the side of the building. Was the quay rail connected ?

[Northroader]

There’s a little film show, mainly shots of the town, but a few in the middle, of the Quay. Includes very tasty view of MGWR wagons.

 

https://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22239:iconic-mill-levelled-at-last&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

Edited October 20, 2021 by Northroader

[Broithe]

31 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

Northroader that is a fantastic picture  of Westport Quay.  I wonder if that is a flour mill and who owned it? because that looks like a vacuum evacuator, used for unloading ships, up the side of the building. Was the quay rail connected ?

It looks like there is potential for there still to be evidence on the ground?

 

https://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22239:iconic-mill-levelled-at-last&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

Edited October 20, 2021 by Broithe

[bufferstop]

The mill was opened in 1904 by the Pollexfen family who also had a mill in Sligo and, of course in Ballisodare which was rail linked by a spur from the station. 

There wasn't a rail link directly to the Westport mill. A spur ran across the road from the Quay station, via level crossing, through the back of what's now the beer garden of the Towers pub, the extremity of which you can just see at the top right of the above photo.  It ended at a small loading bank just about where the tent is located, below the pond in the top middle.

There's a 1969 colour photo, taken by Jerry Walsh, with the rails just recently lifted, in the guest collection album in the IRRS Flickr site

I seem to vaguely recall reading some ancient operating instructions that a loco wasn't allowed on to the spur and that it has to be horse drawn or otherwise with a brakevan attached.

[David Holman]

Continues to amaze me what you folk out there can contribute. Lovely stuff!

 

 

 

 

[Broithe]

10 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Continues to amaze me what you folk out there can contribute. Lovely stuff!

We only do it to keep you busy.

[Northroader]

Here’s somewhere using small coasters, more modellable size. It just needs to have rail access added.

https://www.facebook.com/bairdart48/

[David Holman]

Have turned up some interesting stuff on the web, including a nice example at Donaghadee quay. From what I can see, steam cranes followed a fairly standard design and often sported locally made bodywork/cabins, so looks like there's a project here!

[popeye]

Here are a few pictures I took at Belfast docks a while back if they are of any use to you.

You can also try looking up a website for Kelly coal boats, it might have something on it.

 

[Broithe]

On 19/10/2021 at 5:45 PM, Galteemore said:

You’ve been looking at Port Lairge Wharf, haven’t you ?! Sounds intriguing….

These fine fellows are in Belfasthttps://maritimebelfast.com/our-heritage/steam-cranes/ , and ran on a quayside rail system 

That article contains the phrase - "one of the cranes also had a cameo role in the 2002 film Reign of Fire, an apocalyptic action fantasy set in 2020 Britain" - sounds more like a documentary from our current perspective...

 

Not mobile, but this still exists next to the canal in Tullamore.

[Broithe]

I've found somebody actually selling coasters - might come in handy whilst you're still in the design phase?

https://railwayposters.co.uk/products/rail499-southern-railway-for-sunshine-at-home-or-abroad-coaster

 

[jhb171achill]

On 20/10/2021 at 1:47 PM, Mike 84C said:

Northroader that is a fantastic picture  of Westport Quay.  I wonder if that is a flour mill and who owned it? because that looks like a vacuum evacuator, used for unloading ships, up the side of the building. Was the quay rail connected ?

Yes, it was a mill - owned by people called Hall. And there was a siding right down there, reached off the end of the Westport Quay line. The trackbed was still visible into the 1980s.

[jhb171achill]

On 20/10/2021 at 4:37 PM, bufferstop said:

The mill was opened in 1904 by the Pollexfen family who also had a mill in Sligo and, of course in Ballisodare which was rail linked by a spur from the station. 

There wasn't a rail link directly to the Westport mill. A spur ran across the road from the Quay station, via level crossing, through the back of what's now the beer garden of the Towers pub, the extremity of which you can just see at the top right of the above photo.  It ended at a small loading bank just about where the tent is located, below the pond in the top middle.

There's a 1969 colour photo, taken by Jerry Walsh, with the rails just recently lifted, in the guest collection album in the IRRS Flickr site

I seem to vaguely recall reading some ancient operating instructions that a loco wasn't allowed on to the spur and that it has to be horse drawn or otherwise with a brakevan attached.

Yes, there was indeed such an instruction. However, there's more to it than that - the Hall family were involved too. I wasn't aware that the Polloxfens were too - we live and learn! However there was indeed a siding right onto the quay way back, but it was removed, from memory, even in MGWR days. The Westport Quay line came across the causeway shown in pics above - it's now a road - but two sidings to be worked only as tramways as you suggest, continued alongside the quay. 

The last days of the Quay branch had the siding shortened to just the "causeway" bit, then shortened again when I became familiar with it in the late 1960s. At that stage, the "causeway" bit had just been lifted, the level crossing fenced off on the railway side with a stout fence of old sleepers, and the lower level siding within the station which connected this to the run round lop only recently removed. As we know, the Quay branch mouldered on, seeing occasional traffic only, for another decade or so.

The Jerry Walsh photo dates from this time.

The actual lines ON the quay appear to have been disused by 1930 and probably removed then. As well as Hall's Mill down there, there was another called Maude's, no details of which - as far as any railway interest is concerned - appear to have come to light. 

[bufferstop]

Great stuff JB.

https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/8c489155089e4c1ba128c2a2ae9b8cf2

(Use the Historic 6" Last Edition Black & White map)

The above link proves your case. That map is probably 1920's, it's definitely post 1914. There was a point on the causeway from which the tramway diverged to run along the quay down to the mill. It might have been that specifically that was horsedrawn because it seems to be no loop at the end.

I was flicking through a copy of the GSR rulebook, (it contains details of Achill but not Killala or Clifden). There a section on the siding which is subtitled

( Messrs. Maude & Sons Factory & Messrs. Goodbody's Store)

"This siding is connected with Running Line and is situated at back of station. This siding is on a gradient of 1:60 falling from Running Line and under no circumstances must vehicles be shunted into it unless attached to an Engine and the greatest caution must be exercised by Drivers and all others concerned when moving vechicles into and out of the siding"

I didn't realise that Goodbody's had a store down there or that the mill isn't even mentioned. (I'm not sure when Halls took it over).

I don't suppose you have a copy of the Midland rulebook to see what it says.

Look at 1:24 on this collection from Gerry Conmy, there's a picture of the level crossing and the siding running through the back of the towers ( the turret is part of the pub) onto the causeway.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by bufferstop

[jhb171achill]

13 minutes ago, bufferstop said:

Great stuff JB.

https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/8c489155089e4c1ba128c2a2ae9b8cf2

(Use the Historic 6" Last Edition Black & White map)

The above link proves your case. That map is probably 1920's, it's definitely post 1914. There was a point on the causeway from which the tramway diverged to run along the quay down to the mill. It might have been that specifically that was horsedrawn because it seems to be no loop at the end.

I was flicking through a copy of the GSR rulebook, (it contains details of Achill but not Killala or Clifden). There a section on the siding which is subtitled

( Messrs. Maude & Sons Factory & Messrs. Goodbody's Store)

"This siding is connected with Running Line and is situated at back of station. This siding is on a gradient of 1:60 falling from Running Line and under no circumstances must vehicles be shunted into it unless attached to an Engine and the greatest caution must be exercised by Drivers and all others concerned when moving vechicles into and out of the siding"

I didn't realise that Goodbody's had a store down there or that the mill isn't even mentioned. (I'm not sure when Halls took it over).

I don't suppose you have a copy of the Midland rulebook to see what it says.

Look at 1:24 on this collection from Gerry Conmy, there's a picture of the level crossing and the siding running through the back of the towers ( the turret is part of the pub) onto the causeway.

 

Spot on, bufferstop. I'm sure I've a Midland rule book or appendix somewhere - I will delve and report back!

[David Holman]

 This is the sort of thing I've been looking at. Managed to find the drawing below on the internet, which seems to be a fairly standard design across a range of manufacturers across the world. Some appeared to have no protection whatsoever for the crew, while others had varieties of cover, including what look like locally made. The one at Donaghadee was like this, while the second picture shows the sort of thing we have at Chatham Historic Dockyard.

 For me, this has considerable merit, because much of the mechanism and boiler is nicely hidden away! Backwoods Miniatures did a really nice etched kit of one of the 'open' cranes, which was designed to sit on a narrow gauge 0-4-0 chassis. Unfortunately, they have ceased trading [though the website remains live]. Meanwhile there also exists a 1:48 kit from Eastern Europe, which might  be useful, though I'm aiming to scratch build a model & have made a simple line drawing, as seen in the third picture.

 Why? Well ever since Iain Rice's 'Cameo Layouts' book came out, I've been fascinated by one of his plans, as shown in the last picture. A [very] simple harbour scene, which I've been slowly developing into a 7mm scale, 5'3" gauge idea - more of this eventually! For now though, you can see why I've got the interest in the crane - Iain's drawing shows a separate track for a self propelled crane, running along the quayside and while I have not intention at the moment of  making the crane actually work, making it so it can trundle up and down the quay shouldn't be too difficult, hopefully...

[KMCE]

That is a clever layout - I really like the use of sector plate and hidden fiddle yard. 

That would make a superb layout with great operating potential

[Mayner]

On 25/10/2021 at 4:49 AM, David Holman said:

 This is the sort of thing I've been looking at. Managed to find the drawing below on the internet, which seems to be a fairly standard design across a range of manufacturers across the world. Some appeared to have no protection whatsoever for the crew, while others had varieties of cover, including what look like locally made. The one at Donaghadee was like this, while the second picture shows the sort of thing we have at Chatham Historic Dockyard.

 For me, this has considerable merit, because much of the mechanism and boiler is nicely hidden away! Backwoods Miniatures did a really nice etched kit of one of the 'open' cranes, which was designed to sit on a narrow gauge 0-4-0 chassis. Unfortunately, they have ceased trading [though the website remains live]. Meanwhile there also exists a 1:48 kit from Eastern Europe, which might  be useful, though I'm aiming to scratch build a model & have made a simple line drawing, as seen in the third picture.

 Why? Well ever since Iain Rice's 'Cameo Layouts' book came out, I've been fascinated by one of his plans, as shown in the last picture. A [very] simple harbour scene, which I've been slowly developing into a 7mm scale, 5'3" gauge idea - more of this eventually! For now though, you can see why I've got the interest in the crane - Iain's drawing shows a separate track for a self propelled crane, running along the quayside and while I have not intention at the moment of  making the crane actually work, making it so it can trundle up and down the quay shouldn't be too difficult, hopefully...

Classic Iain Rice with trademark single slip on the crossover on the run round loop

[TimO]

Not too different to Arun Quay then!

Going back to Westport, I don’t know the exact details of the mill in question. However I would hazard a guess that it is much later than the c1900 implied by the sequence of photos though I believe the others might date from around about then as there is not a motor vehicle in sight. In about 1934 the Irish Government started an economic war with Britain and as part of this a lot of industries were grant aided so that the state could become self sufficient. These included flour milling, grain storage and the sugar factories. Given the style of architecture of the mill with the mass concrete and especially the horizontal design of the windows I believe it dates from this period along with Milford Flour Mills in Donegal and a number of others. It is clearly not shown on the 1913 map.

 

[Northroader]

Iain Rice did do Westport Quay for a model plan in his booklet “Model Railway Layout Design” (Wild Swan 1990)

[David Holman]

Ye Gods! Thirty years ago, but still a book I regularly refer to. He also used Westport Quay as the basis for a plan in his Light Railways book - another gem.

[Brack]

On the subject of small ships - a while back I looked at the Ilen

(A 56' ketch built in ireland for serving isolated stations in the falklands, but recently returned and restored).

there are lines plans and 3D models of the hull available online

http://www.tradboats.ie/projects/south/ak-ilen/

(Tradboats also has a lot of other useful scans/plans of little boats)

https://afloat.ie/blogs/sailing-saturday-with-wm-nixon/item/27910-vintage-wooden-boats-get-a-lift

And the images on this site might give you enough to make profiles for the hull:

https://bluejaydesign.github.io/projects/ilen/ilen.html

 

[jhb171achill]

Fenit Pier, Co Kerry, from “Rails Through North Kerry”:

 

Note the curved siding - a way to save space on a small layout - or a real Fenit Pier!

Pictures - Barry Carse 

[jhb171achill]

On 27/10/2021 at 12:34 PM, Northroader said:

Iain Rice did do Westport Quay for a model plan in his booklet “Model Railway Layout Design” (Wild Swan 1990)

Just reading the attached article; ex-GSWR J15s - far from being "ubiquitous" in all of the former MGWR territory, were quite exceptionally rare - and would as good as certainly never have been anywhere near Westport Quay! The J26 class could well have been there in the early MGWR period, but the line was usually worked by a goods engine like a J18 or J19 0.6.0.  A kit of a J18 is badly needed.

Edited November 13, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Northroader]

You’re on your way  to a J18/19 if you shorten the back end of a GWR 2251 0-6-0, which will give you the right chassis, as near as dammit.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

You’re on your way  to a J18/19 if you shorten the back end of a GWR 2251 0-6-0, which will give you the right chassis, as near as dammit.

Very true!

[Mayner]

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Just reading the attached article; ex-GSWR J15s - far from being "ubiquitous" in all of the former MGWR territory, were quite exceptionally rare - and would as good as certainly never have been anywhere near Westport Quay! The J26 class could well have been there in the early MGWR period, but the line was usually worked by a goods engine like a J18 or J19 0.6.0.  A kit of a J18 is badly needed.

The TMD (Terry McDermott)  Midland tank and J15 were the only suitable small Irish steam locomotive kits available for a GSR or CIE layout when Iain Rice wrote "An approach to Model Railway Layout Design Finescale in Small Spaces" in 1990, the situation is basically unchanged 40 years later. 

In Light Railway Layout designs Iain transformed the Westport Quay concept into Isle of Whithorn  a Scottish roadside tramway terminal modelled complete with quayside branch and harbour a cross between PD Hancock's Craig (quite fittingly) and Jim Harrison's Torpoint both influential layouts between the 50s & 70s.  Personally the Isle of Whithorn layout is visually and operationally more attractive than Westport quay, a roadside tramway section, the loco spur having a loco shed and a harbour scene in which the buildings form a backdrop to the railway.

At the time most of Iain Rice's writing were aimed at the fine scale modelling fraternity that prefer the challenge of hand laid track and kit or scratchbuilt stock to EM or S4 standards and hand built building.

 

 

[Galteemore]

In fairness to Rice, too, one elderly Irish 0-6-0 can look much like another, especially with rebuilds, Z class boilers etc factored in. In some variations, there’s not a lot between a J15 and a J18/19, as seen below …..After all, how many of us can identify the various nuances of GWR panniers ?! 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Galteemore

[Northroader]

true enough. It wasn’t always like that.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Northroader