Lower black band on rebuilt Dutch vans

[murphaph]

Does anyone know when the Dutch vans went from looking like this:

 ....to looking like this:

 

?

The latter image was unknown to me until a couple of days ago. I had seen the black band on one of the vans in its condition as a brake van for the stock transfer trains but never while still in revenue service. I suspect this was quite late in their revenue service lives.

[Irishswissernie]

4602 (the van in your lower view) in June 2001 at Limerick Junction. This is the other side unfortunately but look at the left hand end of the body. At that date the orange, black and lining were carried around the edge onto the van end but only on the left hand side.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Irishswissernie

[murphaph]

That's a great pic Ernie, thanks for posting. However I think the paint job carried ever so slightly around the corner on both sides. It's just caked in dirt on the right hand side - you can see the warning flashes are completely obscured by dirt too 

The van is actually the same one in all three pics, 4602. Your pic shows that they started adding some stencilling before the black band itself was applied, which opens up another can of worms lol. When did they start stencilling those things on?

Your pic clearly confirms the black band as being a much later addition, definitely into the 2000s which is out of era for me. The lower stencilling however needs further investigation as this could add interest to the kits I'm working on.

Would you happen to have any other images that might help identify those markings clearly?

[jhb171achill]

I suspect that like "Enterprise"-liveried 201s, no two were alike in that regard! I don't think there was a specific date with a specific livery change, as such. When any individual one gained its lower black band, I am afraid I haven't a clue........

It could be a bit like the "tippex" lines, IR logos and day-glo panels on the ends of A's, 121s and 141 / 181s in the 1987-mid 90s period. While officially the livery WAS "supertrain" with CIE wheel and no white lines, or - full "tippex" with IR logos, hybrid versions appeared, with CIE "wheels" being replaced by IR logos, but no white lines - on some - one at least with IR on the sides and CIE on the ends, or the old one simply painted over.

Livery change periods are always of great interest to modellers; witness the UTA putting "wasp" stripes on some GNR units while still in GNR navy & cream, or paininting out GNR lettering on same and putting UTA "red hand" crests on them again while still in GNR livery. CIE slapped plain dark green paint on some secondary stock in the mid-50s with neither snails nor lining, just as short-term measure.

Some 121s and 141s had the day glo panels at the ends, some didn't. No rhyme or reason. In the sixties, some As and Cs had yellow patches on the ends, some didn't.

For the Dutch vans, pick a date you like and a van number you like, and copy from a photo, if strict accuracy is desired.

[Irishswissernie]

38 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Would you happen to have any other images that might help identify those markings clearly?

4601 at Limerick Junction June 2001 , not much help with the lettering but some interesting weathering etc.

[murphaph]

Absolutely. These are the 2 clearest pics I've seen of these things, cracking stuff. Interesting variation in the sash window frame in the guard's door also!

JB you are probably right as usual. I think I will do none with the black band as it's clearly way too late for the mid 90s to be plausible. I'll do maybe one with the markings however, minus the black band like in Ernie's first pic. I really like that.

I believe I have identified the yellow backed marking. It's visible here:

http://georgedentmodelmaker.blogspot.com/2010/01/irish-generator-van-kit-arrives.html

The marking is C 29-98 and there are three identical markings in Des' Dutch van transfer kit, so I suspect the same marking was on all three. Perhaps a type of lubricant?

The other plain white marking I cannot identify. It doesn't appear to be in the transfer kit either and doesn't seem to appear on the George Dent image either, so I think it was a bit random and can be ignored for now.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by murphaph

[murphaph]

Ah from looking at the Railtec transfer it seems there's possibly a dash missing in Des' version, which would strongly suggest these yellow backed markings are inspection dates:

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=1154

 

[BSGSV]

I would suspect the yellow background stuff is an inspection date - C exam, Week 29, 1998 in your sheet (or whenever).

The small white lettering is about where the filler is on the fuel tank, so possibly says "Fuel".

[Irishswissernie]

These are enlargements from 2 negs which havn't been uploaded to flickr yet, of an un-rebuilt van on a Tralee train at Killarney 16 August 1994. The van has the bottom black line so possible that the van or some vans weren't fully re-painted when rebuilt

Edited July 11, 2022 by Irishswissernie

[ttc0169]

9 hours ago, murphaph said:

Ah from looking at the Railtec transfer it seems there's possibly a dash missing in Des' version, which would strongly suggest these yellow backed markings are inspection dates:

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=1154

 

 

The EGV was given a brake test and exam at IC-(Inchicore) in week 29 in 1998-week commencing 13/07/1998. 
 

All types of GSVs and Mk2 EGVs were stencilled like that during the late 1990/early 2000s,

It is the fuel tank filler marked in while and the restricted to 30mph was used when the EGVs were taken out of passenger service and were used for empty stock transfers to and from Inchicore/Heuston-they hauled Mk3 coaches for attention at Inchicore and returned them to Heuston where they were added to passenger trains,

A similar BR GSV 3189 was also to transfer both Mk2,Cravens and the odd Mk3 coach as it was duel brakes with air and vacuum pipes fitted  

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by ttc0169

[murphaph]

That's very good info about the IC Noel. It seems neither transfer maker has the detail of that yellow backed inspection marking down properly. The I is missing in both cases, though Des' comes a bit closer to correct without the dash. 

This one will probably have to be made up on my printer to get a correct date.

 

[murphaph]

Here's a nice clear example of an original Dutch van's inspection marking. The I almost blends into the  so hardly surprising the transfer makers assumed a C (probably for check).

 

 

[murphaph]

And I'm sorry to rehash an old hobby horse of min, but I stumbled across another pic which I hadn't looked closely enough at previously. It's a rebuilt van (I can't make out the number unfortunately) and it really does look (to me anyway) like the roof was painted orange, at least up as far as the first longitudinal ribs on either side and just got filthy black over time. Or is there another plausible explanation. One side:

...and the other as she departs under the bridge and out the other side:

 

The only possible explanation I can come up with, assuming it was not painted orange, is that the orange was sprayed first and this is overspray. The roof was then painted black but this black paint is coming away and revealing the overspray. I'm not convinced by that possible explanation though. Does anyone know the order the coaches were painted in in reality or was it random?

I have never come across a picture of a newly rebuilt Dutch van. I wonder were any ever taken. IRRS archives perhaps?

[flange lubricator]

A few on flickr

 

And another from Jonathan Allen

 

[warb]

this might help 4603 prior to re painting and after

warb

[murphaph]

Great pics guys. The Jonathan Allen one of 4601 really suggests the roof was originally painted orange, at least up to the ribs, to match the mk2 stock presumably. It's possible that they noticed how dirty the roofs became and switched to black for the rest. I think this is the same vehicle seen departing Athy in the pics I linked to above.

The pic of 4603 really helps date those black bands as I think I can make out an inspection year of 1996. This makes the black band on that vehicle plausible for my time period I believe. A very small bit or artistic licence can make 1996 into 1995 and job done. Close enough and the black band certainly adds interest. I would probably restrict myself to 4603. The pic also shows that the white test says BS 3-96. I'm guessing this is some sort of limited brake inspection (and the calendar week it took place) whereas the IC xx-xx is the bigger inspection and its date, possibly often simultaneously performed?

I don't suppose anyone has any pics of the interior of these things?

 

 

[warb]

A couple of other shots .A long shot in Heuston showing  orange paint above which looks like it was over sprayed with black on the roof.

 

[flange lubricator]

And another by Brian Flanagan

 

[ttc0169]

20 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Great pics guys. The Jonathan Allen one of 4601 really suggests the roof was originally painted orange, at least up to the ribs, to match the mk2 stock presumably. It's possible that they noticed how dirty the roofs became and switched to black for the rest. I think this is the same vehicle seen departing Athy in the pics I linked to above.

The pic of 4603 really helps date those black bands as I think I can make out an inspection year of 1996. This makes the black band on that vehicle plausible for my time period I believe. A very small bit or artistic licence can make 1996 into 1995 and job done. Close enough and the black band certainly adds interest. I would probably restrict myself to 4603. The pic also shows that the white test says BS 3-96. I'm guessing this is some sort of limited brake inspection (and the calendar week it took place) whereas the IC xx-xx is the bigger inspection and its date, possibly often simultaneously performed?

I don't suppose anyone has any pics of the interior of these things?

 

 

BS = Brake serviced,brake blocks changed,and adjusted and any other brake components replaced as required

I did work on the real EGVs mainly on GAA spls but unfortunately never took any photos of the interior but they were similar format to Mk2 and Mk3 EGVs. 

[murphaph]

Good stuff chaps. That long shot in Heuston is probably 4601 again (it has the extra louvres which I think we're unique to it) with the orange roof. It's definitely orange and goes right up. I'm convinced 4601 was originally painted with an orange roof now, at least largely orange. The roof hatches may have been black. Without an as newly painted pic from 91 we'll probably never know though. Makes no odds to me however as by 95 the orange was barely visible and only along the edges. Everything in the middle was filthy dirty black by then.

I wonder were the BS and IC markings on both sides of the van or just one side.

[warb]

Photo taken in 1996 showing black band dated 1994

 

[murphaph]

I believe the "unrebuilt" Dutch vans always had the lower black band. First pic here, for example:

https://steverabone.com/RailwayPhotographs/

Nice pic of an inspection marking all the same. Quite a fruitful thread this thanks to all your help guys. A million times better than asking google anyway!

[ttc0169]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

I wonder were the BS and IC markings on both sides of the van or just one

Both sides were marked. 

[murphaph]

Guys, thanks to your images I have been able to put together a small spreadsheet of the subtle differences in these vans. Might be of use to anyone modelling them in future. If I come across any new details I'll update the spreadsheet, so it's a work in progress.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zLupSzoj6kkkA9H-s7W62MpoggdXJgr8ORQXHkTA0Vs/edit?usp=sharing

 

[flange lubricator]

Great work Phillip the other coaches carried similar markings on the bogies as in this picture of 4105

 

[murphaph]

It would be nice if a certain manufacturer of model railways of Ireland would include different inspection date stickers or transfers in any possible upcoming range of coaches said manufacturer might be contemplating 

[JasonB]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:31 AM, murphaph said:

Does anyone know when the Dutch vans went from looking like this:

 ....to looking like this:

Great thread, Philip. Excellent images and info shared by the group. 

Certain people will call it rivet counting, but I love the difference in little details like this, especially when modelling. 

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, JasonB said:

Great thread, Philip. Excellent images and info shared by the group. 

Certain people will call it rivet counting, but I love the difference in little details like this, especially when modelling. 

Couldn't agree more. While "rivet counting" - like everything else in modelling - is not everyone's cuppa tae, when done well it really brings a realistic layout to life.

[Irishswissernie]

I think possibly that when the vans were first built they were given a lower black band as there wasn't a visible underframe to match up with the Cravens etc which had black underframes so giving some livery uniformity to a train set. When they were rebuilt for the Mark 2's which didn't have a visible underframe, the lower black line was left off so that again the train set livery had some uniformity.

[jhb171achill]

15 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

I think possibly that when the vans were first built they were given a lower black band as there wasn't a visible underframe to match up with the Cravens etc which had black underframes so giving some livery uniformity to a train set. When they were rebuilt for the Mark 2's which didn't have a visible underframe, the lower black line was left off so that again the train set livery had some uniformity.

In original livery they did all have the lower black band, and for exactly the reason you mention.

[Robert Shrives]

On 13/7/2022 at 8:55 AM, flange lubricator said:

Great work Phillip the other coaches carried similar markings on the bogies as in this picture of 4105

I wonder if one of these might land in time from a group of well known lads?

 

 

 

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, Robert Shrives said:

 

Fingers crossed