The GSWR 500 class

[jhb171achill]

A much-neglected, but superb locomotive.

Scratch-build, anyone?

From a 1924 edition of the Railway Engineer magazine.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

The 500 Class were one of the first successful classes of modern Mixed Traffic 4-6-0s in the British Isles the nearest preceding the much larger GWR Hall and LMS Black 5 Classes.  The 500 Class cylinder and valve gear arrangement was used as the prototype for re-building 40o Class from a 4 to a 2 cylinder loco, unfortunately only 402 received the full rebuild with new-frames and 500 Class motion on the grounds of cost.

Although it was apparently planned to build further members of the Class, Inchacore only built three 500 Class 4-6-0s, the purchase of an additional 16 sets of parts from Woolwich Arsenal was a much cheaper option.

Probabably have to be a scratchbuild, there is unlikely to be enough demand for a rtr model or a kit of a relatively small obscure class that had all gone by the mid-1950s

[Galteemore]

The class gets an honourable mention in ‘A Decade of Steam’ - Driver Bill McDonnell says that a 500 was in especial demand for heavy passenger specials and they were his favourite CIE class. Once a 500 had lifted a train to 50-60mph, ‘she could lope along on a whisper’.

[Noel]

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

The 500 Class were one of the first successful classes of modern Mixed Traffic 4-6-0s in the British Isles the nearest preceding the much larger GWR Hall and LMS Black 5 Classes.  The 500 Class cylinder and valve gear arrangement was used as the prototype for re-building 40o Class from a 4 to a 2 cylinder loco, unfortunately only 402 received the full rebuild with new-frames and 500 Class motion on the grounds of cost.

Although it was apparently planned to build further members of the Class, Inchacore only built three 500 Class 4-6-0s, the purchase of an additional 16 sets of parts from Woolwich Arsenal was a much cheaper option.

Probabably have to be a scratchbuild, there is unlikely to be enough demand for a rtr model or a kit of a relatively small obscure class that had all gone by the mid-1950s

IRM might surprise us perhaps - now that they've launched their first steam model in the GB market. It would be fantastic to have 460 steam loco to complement and haul laminate flying snail green stock alongside the upcoming 22k sets. Full circle.

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, Noel said:

IRM might surprise us perhaps - now that they've launched their first steam model in the GB market. It would be fantastic to have 460 steam loco to complement and haul laminate flying snail green stock alongside the upcoming 22k sets. Full circle.

Strictly speaking the 4-6-0s are unlikely to have hauled trains of modern coaching stock during CIE days apart from the GNR stock on the short lived Amiens St-Cork leg of the Enterprise.

Main line steam hauled trains were mainly made up of early GSR/ late GSWR corridor coaches with the odd 'modern' GSR or CIE Bredin coach in the rake. The Bachmann/Murphy Models "Irish Passenger Train" coaches are close in outline and general appearance to the early GSR/late GSWR coaches, Silver Fox CIE 1951-3 Composite would pass for a GSR or CIE Bredin coach (from a distance!)

The early GSR/late GSWR coaches would have been considered state of the art (though the 3rd Class a bit spartan) when the 400 and 500 Class 4-6-0s were introduced in the 1920s

The CIE 1951-3 stock which included Corridor Composites, Corridor Thirds, Open Thirds, Brake Thirds and Buffet cars were used principally as trailer coaches for use with the AEC Railcars, with the odd vehicle used to provide a 'modern coach' in steam hauled trains.

The Laminates were introduced in the Silver Livery from 1956 onwards after steam was withdrawn from main line passenger services. Some Laminates were painted in light green with the single eau-de-nil with the flying snail logo in the late 50 early 60s. The Laminates were quite different in construction and outline to the 1951-3 stock

The 500 & 501 were withdrawn in 1955 following the introduction of the A Class diesels, 503 was withdrawn in 57. The 800 and 400 Class were relegated to secondary duties (mainly goods trains) following the introduction of the A Class, the majority of the remaining 4-6-0s were withdrawn between 1955 & 58.

401 & 402 were withdrawn in 1961 and 800 in 1962.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

A debate that occurs doe at the cork branch often is should money have been put into the 400 and 500 classes instead of building the 800s

[GSR 800]

On 13/3/2023 at 11:44 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

A debate that occurs doe at the cork branch often is should money have been put into the 400 and 500 classes instead of building the 800s

I think the 800s are looked upon with the hindsight of the postwar years with little to show for themselves. Had they been given the opportunity, I'm sure that discussion would not have been had. Equally, significant expense had already gone toward rebuilding the 400s, they decided after looking at the expense of 402s rebuild to cut costs where possible. 

Interestingly, the 400s didn't compare particularly favourably to William Goulding, which could work at a similar pressure. I have yet to see a single photo of that locomotive, other than a three-quarter rear view of (what is apparently) her as a stationary boiler at Inchicore. One of the 500s met a similar fate.

 

[Mayner]

The GSR developed a obsession with 3 cylinder locos during the late 30s early 40 including a "rebuild" of Woolwich Moguls as a 3 cylinder 4-6-0 and a 4-6-2T for the Kerry Road.

The 372 Class rebuilds may have been intended for the Midland, where the Woolwich were overloaded on Dublin-Galway Passenger/Mail trains.

The rebuilds were intended to combine a 400 Class boiler with Woolwich driving wheels & 800 class motion the Irish equivalent of a "Baby Scott" the 3 cylinder drive would have been less severe on the track than the 2 cylinder Woolwich and 400 Class rebuilds.

The 820s were based on the boiler used in the Rosslare "Bogie" 4-4-0s and in a way is an update of an early GSR proposal for an outside cylinder 4-4-2T for the South Easter with an additional set of driving wheels.

There was little or no prospect for the development of new steam classes after the Emergency the CIE Chairman quickly convinced the Board that dieselisation was the way forward. The First Diesel programme included proposals for a luxury "Diesel Tourist Train" to promote Ireland as a tourist destination and a single ended diesel not unlike an American A unit, the First Diesel programme failed because the UK manufacturers did not have the capability to take on the CIE order in the immediate post war era, CIE instead ordering engines and electrical equipment for 5 Diesel Electric shunting locos with Mirrlees engines and Brush Electric Equipment, 2 Mixed Traffic diesel electric locos with Sulzer engines and Metropolitan Vickers Electric Equipment and 6 Large Diesel Electric Locos for Kingsbridge-Cork services powered by two Sulzer Engines with Metropolitan Vickers Electrical Equipment.

The CIE Chairman was forced to resign and the order for the 6 large diesel electric was cancelled as a result of political pressure, the engines and power units were stored and later used in the B101 Class possibly the most reliable and useful of the CIE 'modernisation era' classes of main line diesel locos.

 

[228RiverOwenboy]

Hi lads, just wondering, is there any coloured pictures of this loco in service? I'm currently trying to figure out the colours of the CIE (green) livery the 500(s) wore.

 

Thanks.

[jhb171achill]

46 minutes ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Hi lads, just wondering, is there any coloured pictures of this loco in service? I'm currently trying to figure out the colours of the CIE (green) livery the 500(s) wore.

 

Thanks.

Exactly the same as other green steam engines - if you look at modern photos of "Maedb" (800) in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in Co Down, you'll get the actual paint - better still, go to see it. The green - with black and white lining, eau-de-nil "snails" on the tender and numerals on cabsides, is the same green applied to coaches prior to the "light green" period of 1955-62; and also allpied to buses 1945-63.

Prior to 1945 thyey were plain grey all over, with cast number plates (grey too!). They would never have been black.

Edited April 13, 2023 by jhb171achill

[228RiverOwenboy]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Exactly the same as other green steam engines - if you look at modern photos of "Maedb" (800) in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in Co Down, you'll get the actual paint - better still, go to see it. The green - with black and white lining, eau-de-nil "snails" on the tender and numerals on cabsides, is the same green applied to coaches prior to the "light green" period of 1955-62; and also allpied to buses 1945-63.

Prior to 1945 thyey were plain grey all over, with cast number plates (grey too!). They would never have been black.

Much appreciated, thank you!

[Horsetan]

Occurs to me that the 500 class looks a little bit like the Urie/Maunsell S15 4-6-0, albeit with Belpaire firebox....

[228RiverOwenboy]

Would anyone know the top speed of this locomotive? Or any specifications/characteristics?

[Galteemore]

Easily capable of 70 mph according to Donaldson. Bogie wheels 3’, drivers 5’8.5”. Loco length 37’, 1.25”. Wheel base 6’8, 5’10.5, 7, 7’4. Tractive effort 23780 lbs. 

[Colin R]

On 11/5/2023 at 2:30 PM, Horsetan said:

Occurs to me that the 500 class looks a little bit like the Urie/Maunsell S15 4-6-0, albeit with Belpaire firebox....

I was thinking that myself, I wonder how easy it would be to build as a model. 

[Killian Keane]

[Mayner]

Apart from the outside Walschaerts valve gear a 500 Class would be a relatively simple scratchbuilding project. Plenty of room for a large can motor and gearbox simple geometric shapes no pesky curving running boards and crankpin splashers that make 19th Century locos so challenging to build.

Building a rake of matching GSWR/GSR 1920s side corridor coaches used on trains like the "American Mails" and "Tourist Train" in GSR days would be more challenging, though SSM produce very nice kits of the GSR Bredin coaches used on the "Steel Train" during the 1930, strictly speaking the forthcoming Park Royals are too modern 500 and 501 were withdrawn in 1955, 502 was withdrawn in 1957.   

[Colin R]

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

Apart from the outside Walschaert's valve gear a 500 Class would be a relatively simple scratchbuilding project. Plenty of room for a large can motor and gearbox simple geometric shapes no pesky curving running boards and crankpin splashers that make 19th Century locos so challenging to build.

Building a rake of matching GSWR/GSR 1920s side corridor coaches used on trains like the "American Mails" and "Tourist Train" in GSR days would be more challenging, though SSM produce very nice kits of the GSR Bredin coaches used on the "Steel Train" during the 1930, strictly speaking the forthcoming Park Royals are too modern 500 and 501 were withdrawn in 1955, 502 was withdrawn in 1957.   

Hi John do you of anyone producing an etched Walschaert's valve gear suitable for the 500 class?

Colin

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Colin R said:

.....anyone producing an etched Walschaert's valve gear suitable for the 500 class?

You'd have to mix and match. The 7' x 7'4" wheelbase is slightly unusual but I think Alan Gibson Workshop produces a set of etched coupling rods for that wheelbase. Even if not, AGW also produces a universal set of coupling rods that you can trim and adjust to obtain 7' x 7'4". A similar, if slightly more developed, universal etch is available from Lanarkshire Model Supplies.

For the connecting rods and valve gear, AGW has about ten different types of Walschaerts valve gear etch for various British classes including the S15. The important one is that the connecting rods should come out at a scale 11' (44mm) between little end and big end centres. It's a matter of trying to work out which one needs least modification.

You may end up using more than one etch to cobble the various other rods together.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Horsetan

[Colin R]

3 hours ago, Horsetan said:

You'd have to mix and match. The 7' x 7'4" wheelbase is slightly unusual but I think Alan Gibson Workshop produces a set of etched coupling rods for that wheelbase. Even if not, AGW also produces a universal set of coupling rods that you can trim and adjust to obtain 7' x 7'4". A similar, if slightly more developed, universal etch is available from Lanarkshire Model Supplies.

For the connecting rods and valve gear, AGW has about ten different types of Walschaerts valve gear etch for various British classes including the S15. The important one is that the connecting rods should come out at a scale 11' (44mm) between little end and big end centres. It's a matter of trying to work out which one needs least modification.

You may end up using more than one etch to cobble the various other rods together.

What can possible go wrong then 

[Horsetan]

46 minutes ago, Colin R said:

What can possible go wrong then 

It makes life interesting 

[228RiverOwenboy]

I wonder what kind of whistle the 500s had... Is there any preserved Irish/UK locomotive whistle type that's close to it/sounds similar?

[Horsetan]

14 minutes ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

I wonder what kind of whistle the 500s had... Is there any preserved Irish/UK locomotive whistle type that's close to it/sounds similar?

If there is no recording in existence, we'll never know what the original sounded like

[Galteemore]

Recordings of RPSI’s 186 is probably as close as you’ll get. 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

I do love a chime whistle

 

[Colin R]

or how about these

 

[GSR 800]

13 hours ago, Horsetan said:

If there is no recording in existence, we'll never know what the original sounded like

Run up to Cultra and hook up a compressor to Maedb's whistle

[Galteemore]

25 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Run up to Cultra and hook up a compressor to Maedb's whistle

They did manage to dig up the Titanic’s whistles from the depths and do exactly that, so it’s possible!  

 

[228RiverOwenboy]

(Credit: Unknown)

Would anyone know what type of tender this 500 coupled up to? Would anyone have more photos of this particular tender?

[seagoebox]

The tender pictured with 502? was one of a pair, numbered 407 and 408, built at Inchicore with locomotives 501 & 502 in February and March 1926.

They were ordered by the GS&WR but the order was completed by the GSR.

They were nicknamed "Biscuit tins" as the coal was contained within a steel plate hopper, set back from the tender outside plating ( to aid sighting lines by the footplate crew ) and the tender did not have coal rails like many other tenders. 

Water capacity was the second largest on the GSR at 4670 gallons, coal carried was 7 tons 10 cwt, tare weight 49 tons. ( the three 800 class tenders had 5000 gallons and 8 tons of coal.)

The ladder with the curved handrail top on the tender rear remains from the time that the three 500's were converted to oil firing for a brief period 1947-48 

[228RiverOwenboy]

On 15/5/2023 at 8:28 AM, GSR 800 said:

Run up to Cultra and hook up a compressor to Maedb's whistle

I feel like it'd sound something like one of the LMS locos (i.e Black 5s, rebuilt Royal Scots, Jubilee etc). Would be really fitting for it to have something like that, a deep whistle for a mighty locomotive!

[228RiverOwenboy]

On 13/4/2023 at 10:54 PM, jhb171achill said:

 

Prior to 1945 thyey were plain grey all over, with cast number plates (grey too!). They would never have been black.

So I assume they would/wouldn't have had a livery like the RPSI's 186 (battleship grey) or their 461 when she was in all black with yellow numbering and CIE logo on the tender?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

So I assume they would/wouldn't have had a livery like the RPSI's 186 (battleship grey) or their 461 when she was in all black with yellow numbering and CIE logo on the tender?

Yes, 186 is correct - in fact, the shade of grey was correctly colour matched at the time and confirmed accurate by several ex-GSR men then still living. The 461 black livery was incorrect in detail - while that loco seems to have been very briefly black in the very late 50s, it was always plain grey after the DSER became part of the GSR and CIE. On the RPSI's 461, the yellow "flying snail" was wrong - no steam engine ever carried anything but the standard pale green "snail", lined gold - in other words, the same transfers as on the sides of carriages and buses!

[228RiverOwenboy]

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, 186 is correct - in fact, the shade of grey was correctly colour matched at the time and confirmed accurate by several ex-GSR men then still living. The 461 black livery was incorrect in detail - while that loco seems to have been very briefly black in the very late 50s, it was always plain grey after the DSER became part of the GSR and CIE. On the RPSI's 461, the yellow "flying snail" was wrong - no steam engine ever carried anything but the standard pale green "snail", lined gold - in other words, the same transfers as on the sides of carriages and buses!

So it would be this...

 

With the gold outline like this?

 

 

Apologies for the many questions, I'm just hoping to not mess up the livery or logo on my 500 model 

[jhb171achill]

Correct, yes. All steam locos had the lower one. This applied to grey locos, the few that were black, or green ones. Cabside numerals on grey or black locos were pale 9not bright) yellow, and on green locos the numbers were also pale green, lined gold, like the "snail" transfer.

No steam loco ever carried a yellow (or, as on old lima models, white!) flying snail.

When locos had cast plates, these were variously picked out in pale yellow (but grey, not black, backgrounds), or just painted over. A few had the numbers polished bare metal - jhbSenior noted several such at Inchicore in the early 1940s.