Has anyone ever modelled the DNGR?

[jhb171achill]

Always thought Greenore would make a fantastic, versatile, unique and highly interesting modelling prototype.

Obvious Cyril Fry did too; here are his DNGR models. If anyone wants a closer look, come to the model railway museum in Malahide and ping me in advance.

With Hattons doing 6-wheelers in LNWR livery, Provincial’s GNR goods vans, cattle trucks and opens, a Ratio kit suitable for one of their few bogie coaches, and several GNR locos available in kit form, as well as a British 0.6.0 saddle tank that isn’t a million miles off a DNGR tank, tis surely a viable project? 

[Flying Snail]

Which British 0.6.0 saddle tank are you thinking of @jhb171achill?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

Which British 0.6.0 saddle tank are you thinking of @jhb171achill?

I had seen it online - it's a kit, but I do not know who makes / made it.

Edited March 22, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Patrick Davey]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I had seen it online - it's a kit, but I do not know who makes / made it.

It's the LNWR 'Special' tank I think JB?

https://www.hattons.co.uk/76795/gem_kb023_lnwr_special_tank_gem_kit_including_all_parts_motor_wheels_detailing_etc/stockdetail

And yes it's a line I'd love to have a go at sometime - the DNGR saddle tanks might be exactly the kind of prototype that OO Works might be interested in....?

[jhb171achill]

Correct - that's exactly what it was.

[jhb171achill]

You'd make a great - and historically accurate - model of that place, with a compact "large"-looking terminus occuping less space than you'd expect. Track plans and photos are readily available (even my father, often quite cheeseparing with his expenditure on film!) took several shots there.

You've enough wagons - the Provincial Leslie output adequately covers all eventualities. Cattle, covered vans and coal in open wagons, and bob's yer whatever. If you got three of those tanks, plus a GNR 2.4.2T or 0.6.0 to mix it up a bit, plus Hattons 6-wheelers, you actually have every single thing you need bar a railbus of DBGR or GNR provenance.

For the "what-if" style of layout, liner trains in more modern times; had it been eaten by CIE and the UTA in 1949, UTA would have soon lost interest and shut the Newry line, but we might at least hope for a large container facility. I know some here are interested in all sorts of colourful boxes on modern flat wagons, a la Ballina; this would be a perfect setting for a layout like that. In the 1980s you'll have a "C" and a motley collection of old carriages working all-stops Greenore - Connolly rather than Dundalk - Connolly; today you'd have a 29 class set going in and out. Greenore - DDK - Malahide - Connolly - Pearse.

I am sure i've a timetable for that line somewhere....

Maybe a 2-car 28 just serving Greenore to Dundalk.........

[Andy Cundick]

1 hour ago, Patrick Davey said:

It's the LNWR 'Special' tank I think JB?

https://www.hattons.co.uk/76795/gem_kb023_lnwr_special_tank_gem_kit_including_all_parts_motor_wheels_detailing_etc/stockdetail

And yes it's a line I'd love to have a go at sometime - the DNGR saddle tanks might be exactly the kind of prototype that OO Works might be interested in....?

Yes and then again no the DNG tanks were actually DX 060's with saddletanks,the main difference being the wheel diameter 4'3" for the Specials whereas the DX's were 5'2". I built mine using the London Road kit for the Special tank but with the larger wheels and using the splashers from their DX kit which they do as a spare.Worsley does four of the coachesi most say they do jolly up Valencia when they make an appearance.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

Yes and then again no the DNG tanks were actually DX 060's with saddletanks,the main difference being the wheel diameter 4'3" for the Specials whereas the DX's were 5'2". I built mine using the London Road kit for the Special tank but with the larger wheels and using the splashers from their DX kit which they do as a spare.Worsley does four of the coachesi most say they do jolly up Valencia when they make an appearance.Andy.

Indeed - I forgot about the Worsley etches!

[Patrick Davey]

I remember being at a photographic exhibition in the old church in Carlingford, now the Carlingford Heritage Centre, and there was a mini-layout based on Riverstown Viaduct, with a GNR-ish railbus doing a loop around a circuit.  It was quite nice!

[Mayner]

Andy's combination of London Road LNWR Special Tank and DX splashers with 5'2" wheels is probably the best option for building a DNGR Tank.

I tried building a DNGR tank using a whitemetal GEM LNWR Special Tank and a brass chassis using Alan Gibson main frames, the model was not a success as I could not get sufficient clearance for the larger wheels in the whitemetal kity body and I was not too impressed with the quality of the castings.

Richard Hobbs produces a Shapeways 3D printed GNR JT 2-4-2T which can be finished to a reasonable standard using plasticard overlays to the sidetanks https://www.shapeways.com/product/322AX6GR7/4mm-scale-gnri-jt-tank-body-shell-16-5mm-gauge, 

A OO Works UG 0-6-0 would pass muster on the goods, for those with a bit more determination Studio Scale Models produce an AL 0-6-0 and a PP4-4-0. ALs would have worked goods and cattle trains after the GNR took over working the DNGR during the 30s, PPs could have appeared on Greenore-Belfast Boat Trains and excursions to an from different parts on the GNR.

The beauty of a relatively small but busy terminus like Greenore is that you don't need a lot of locos or stock to operate the layout, 2-3 DNGR Tanks, a GNR 2-4-2T, a couple of 0-6-0 to work the goods and cattle specials, half a dozen 6 wheel coaches and 20 or so wagons, being a junction terminus with lines to Newry and Dundalk considerably increases to operating interest compared with a typical Branch Line terminus

6-12 months spent assembling/building a loco kit such as an AL or PP does not add up to a major commitment in terms of time or money. 

[Patrick Davey]

Wish I had the skill to tackle the SSM PP kit - they were such elegant locos and one would look right at home on Brookhall Mill.......

[Galteemore]

8 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Wish I had the skill to tackle the SSM PP kit - they were such elegant locos and one would look right at home on Brookhall Mill.......

You have the skills Patrick - just haven’t tried them! Talking of PPs, here is a painting of one pre-WW1 on the Greenore boat train. In those days the fastest way to reach London from Belfast. The original was commissioned by Sir John Harcourt, Lord Mayor of Belfast, c1957, and hung in the BR boardroom at Euston for many years. Sir John had used the train many times and had great affection for it: the border sadly killed it off. The painting was by Raymond Piper, more famous for orchid paintings. Piper travelled extensively around the network to track down every vehicle used on the train and sketch it. The PP - by 1957 black with a riveted smokebox - was captured at Newry shed, and the sketch survives.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

If the artist was so meticulous in tracking down the individual carriages, I’d be curious as to what the 3rd & 4th carriages are behind the locomotive….

Edited March 23, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If the artist was so meticulous in tracking down the individual carriages, I’d be curious as to what the 3rd & 4th carriages are behind the locomotive….

Sadly it’s 16 years too late to ask him…https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Piper

[Irishswissernie]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I am sure i've a timetable for that line somewhere...

I have the 1947 WTT on flickr.

Also the fourth scan is the1917 GNRI WTT Barrack Street - Dundalk section which shows the Boat train 

Finally a GNRI A Class on the line with a cattle special pre WWII

 

[Bob49]

Were the wagons and vans just slightly wider versions of the standard LNWR versions like the coaches?

Marc

[Andy Cundick]

Simple one that ,yes.Andy

[Killian Keane]

[Bob49]

I already have a number of LNWR 4ft8.5 wagon in both 4mm and 7mm so drawing them out to fit 5ft3 shouldn't be very difficult.  

 

Marc

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Bob49 said:

I already have a number of LNWR 4ft8.5 wagon in both 4mm and 7mm so drawing them out to fit 5ft3 shouldn't be very difficult.  

 

Marc

Most of the wagons on this system were actually GNR wagons, as it was the bigger neighbour, and the very vast majority of the goods traffic generated on the two lines came from / went to the GNR. I doubt if their wagons were as LNWR-esque as the actual LNWR, or the DNGR's carriages and locos - a modeller is much better off with IRCH designs and in particular with GNR(I) markings. To all intents and purposes, its goods working were simply another GNR branch.

Edited March 23, 2023 by jhb171achill

[leslie10646]

15 hours ago, Galteemore said:

You have the skills Patrick - just haven’t tried them! Talking of PPs, here is a painting of one pre-WW1 on the Greenore boat train. In those days the fastest way to reach London from Belfast. The original was commissioned by Sir John Harcourt, Lord Mayor of Belfast, c1957, and hung in the BR boardroom at Euston for many years. Sir John had used the train many times and had great affection for it: the border sadly killed it off. The painting was by Raymond Piper, more famous for orchid paintings. Piper travelled extensively around the network to track down every vehicle used on the train and sketch it. The PP - by 1957 black with a riveted smokebox - was captured at Newry shed, and the sketch survives.

A bit like this?

It is a PP and the examples of these LNWR coaches were bought by the GNR.

[Bob49]

I found this on a well known website.

The first wagon is a carbon copy of the LNWR 4ft8.5 dia2 2 plk fixed side the other one looks like a LNWR loco coal wagon with a centre door. I have also passed the photo on to a friend who is in the LNWR Society to see if he can throw some light onto it.

If the DNGR followed the LNWR's livery protocal the the phot dates from before 1910 when the diamonds were replaced with large LNWRs

Marc

 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

47 minutes ago, Bob49 said:

I found this on a well known website.

The first wagon is a carbon copy of the LNWR 4ft8.5 dia2 2 plk fixed side the other one looks like a LNWR loco coal wagon with a centre door. I have also passed the photo on to a friend who is in the LNWR Society to see if he can throw some light onto it.

If the DNGR followed the LNWR's livery protocal the the phot dates from before 1910 when the diamonds were replaced with large LNWRs

Marc

 

Do you reckon Tony Atkinson wanted to be noticed?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Bob49 said:

I found this on a well known website.

The first wagon is a carbon copy of the LNWR 4ft8.5 dia2 2 plk fixed side the other one looks like a LNWR loco coal wagon with a centre door. I have also passed the photo on to a friend who is in the LNWR Society to see if he can throw some light onto it.

If the DNGR followed the LNWR's livery protocal the the phot dates from before 1910 when the diamonds were replaced with large LNWRs

Marc

 

This, of course, adds even more interest to a layout based on Greenore; these things mixed in with GNR wagons! Regarding wagon livery, whatever shade of grey the LNWR used was probably the same on the DNGR, since their locos and coaches were pure LNWR!  It leads me to think that I can't recall ever having seen a photo of a DNGR wagon with the then-typical large letters - presumably "D N G" or "D N G R" on their sides.......... must have a look at Ernie's pics and the IRRS online archive!

The van on the extreme left of the pic looks intriguing too...

 

[Irishswissernie]

D S M Barrie's book on the DN&GR says that the LNWR furnished the whole of the original rolling stock and specifically says that they constructed the locomotives and carriages at Crewe and Wolverton. However he doesn't state that the goods stock was built by them although it is extremely likely that it was rather than outside contractors.

Original (1872) goods stock provided is listed as  50 cattle trucks, 18 ft long, 10 bolster timber wagons, 40 open and 100 covered goods wagons and 2  goods brake vans.

[Bob49]

A bit of an update on the wagon photo. There is a DN&GR wagon diagram book prepared by the LNWR, in 1903, of which a have go a few pages, the rest is on the way. This a snap shot of what was still in existance in 1903, anythibng scraped before or built after will not feature. So the 2plk open is actually a DN&GR D1 2plk 16ft long, 8ft wide, on a 9ft wheel base. Rated a 7tons and fitted with No1 round bottomed greese axle boxes. The other wagon is a DN&GR D2 coal wagon 16ft long, 8ft wide, one a 9ft wheel base. Rated at 10tons and fitted with No.2 greese axle boxes.

I have no info, yet on where they were built, in what numbers were built etc but I have a fealing that might be on the way as well.

Marc

[Patrick Davey]

Very interesting thread - enjoying this one!

[irishrailways52]

that has to be the greatest model I have ever seen

[Bob49]

Fresh off the printer a DNGR dia 1 2plk open. I'm hoping to have it finished in then next week or so.

Marc

[jhb171achill]

SUPERB stuff, Bob49!

[Killian Keane]

Thats incredible work, is it 4mm or 7mm? Can I also ask what orientation/angle/other settings you printed that in as whenever I do open wagons little pinprick holes appear between the planks if I print it any other way than with the top of the wagon facing the build plate which is not ideal as the entire floor becomes covered in the popmarks from the supports, my West Clare opens and others would certainly benefit from a better way of printing them

Edited May 26, 2023 by Killian Keane

[Bob49]

The wagon is in 7mm but as it's a print can scale it down very easily. I've got some brass subframes on there was so I can build it at 36mm track. 

The print angle is worked out on the ratio between the number of pixels per square inch and the size of the slice. So it will change depending on which printer you are using. 

There is a web site where you can put your printer in and the thickness of slice and it gives you the angle. 

Your holes could be because your build plate might need an extra waiting time to allow the resin to settle before the light comes back on. I had the same problem and this solved the problem.

Marc

[Bob49]

The 2 plank is now painted. Buffers an wheels should be added tomorrow.

I have also been working on 2.GNR(I) opens. A 4 plank open and a 6 plank open.

These should be getting their wheels and buffers in the morning.

Marc

[Paul 34F]

On 23/3/2023 at 10:03 AM, Galteemore said:

You have the skills Patrick - just haven’t tried them! Talking of PPs, here is a painting of one pre-WW1 on the Greenore boat train. In those days the fastest way to reach London from Belfast. The original was commissioned by Sir John Harcourt, Lord Mayor of Belfast, c1957, and hung in the BR boardroom at Euston for many years. Sir John had used the train many times and had great affection for it: the border sadly killed it off. The painting was by Raymond Piper, more famous for orchid paintings. Piper travelled extensively around the network to track down every vehicle used on the train and sketch it. The PP - by 1957 black with a riveted smokebox - was captured at Newry shed, and the sketch survives.

Slightly off topic, but bear with me.  Here’s a possibility for an alternative piece of history.  What if at Independence, the Ferry and the Boat Train switched to the other side of the Lough?  They would be alterations, but the line from Goraghwood to Warrenpoint would still be open.  The level crossings in Newry would be an issue. However, anything is possible.

Paul

[Bob49]

Having missed the zoom talk the other night was there any photos of the stock pre-1921?

If there was can anyone point me to where I might get hold of copyies?

Març

Edited November 21, 2023 by Bob49