Arguments about abandoned trains, sociopolitical influences on railway building, and probably something else eventually.

[LNERW1]

Yeah, my 7 brain cells can’t work out how to edit the name of a topic.

[Broithe]

4 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

Yeah, my 7 brain cells can’t work out how to edit the name of a topic.

Go to your first post here - click the three dots in the top right corner - click 'edit' - edit the title text to suit - click 'submit'.

[LNERW1]

Just now, Broithe said:

Go to your first post here - click the three dots in the top right corner - click 'edit' - edit the title text to suit - click 'submit'.

Ok, let me try. Thanks.

[jhb171achill]

LOVE that thread title! Someone will be doing a thesis on it in 20 years' time....

OK, here's one for you.

Setting aside all the stuff that gets trotted out as "fact" in terms of closed railways being dropped on the Germans, etc etc etc, a new one: what is a closure date?

Is it (a) the date of the day on which the last official public train ran?

Is it (b) the day after that, namely the first date without public trains?

Or, is it (c) something else? For example, imagine this. A line is to close on 31st December 1950, let's say. That day is a Monday, but that line never had a Sunday service, so the last trains run on Saturday 29th. Is that the closure date, or is Monday 31st?

First correct answer can buy me a pint.

[Metrovik]

19 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

LOVE that thread title! Someone will be doing a thesis on it in 20 years' time....

OK, here's one for you.

Setting aside all the stuff that gets trotted out as "fact" in terms of closed railways being dropped on the Germans, etc etc etc, a new one: what is a closure date?

Is it (a) the date of the day on which the last official public train ran?

Is it (b) the day after that, namely the first date without public trains?

Or, is it (c) something else? For example, imagine this. A line is to close on 31st December 1950, let's say. That day is a Monday, but that line never had a Sunday service, so the last trains run on Saturday 29th. Is that the closure date, or is Monday 31st?

First correct answer can buy me a pint.

Id say that the lines closure date comes with the train used to pull it up, and take it away. Can't get much more closed than that.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Metrovik said:

Id say that the lines closure date comes with the train used to pull it up, and take it away. Can't get much more closed than that.

What about the ghost train that goes through a few years later, as per the numerous tales on the Donegal - Killybegs section?

[Broithe]

55 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

LOVE that thread title! Someone will be doing a thesis on it in 20 years' time....

OK, here's one for you.

Setting aside all the stuff that gets trotted out as "fact" in terms of closed railways being dropped on the Germans, etc etc etc, a new one: what is a closure date?

Is it (a) the date of the day on which the last official public train ran?

Is it (b) the day after that, namely the first date without public trains?

Or, is it (c) something else? For example, imagine this. A line is to close on 31st December 1950, let's say. That day is a Monday, but that line never had a Sunday service, so the last trains run on Saturday 29th. Is that the closure date, or is Monday 31st?

First correct answer can buy me a pint.

 

36 minutes ago, Metrovik said:

Id say that the lines closure date comes with the train used to pull it up, and take it away. Can't get much more closed than that.

 

34 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

What about the ghost train that goes through a few years later, as per the numerous tales on the Donegal - Killybegs section?

How long can a thread title be..?

[LNERW1]

1 minute ago, Broithe said:

 

 

How long can a thread title be..?

I really want to test that… there may not actually be a limit, as I doubt there’d be anyone on this forum trying to do anything malicious by typing up a ridiculously long title.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, LNERW1 said:

I really want to test that… there may not actually be a limit, as I doubt there’d be anyone on this forum trying to do anything malicious by typing up a ridiculously long title.

Best not to put ideas in people's heads!       

[DiveController]

5 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

I really want to test that… there may not actually be a limit, as I doubt there’d be anyone on this forum trying to do anything malicious by typing up a ridiculously long title.

Not any more  

 

[Mayner]

How about Marxist Dialectics and arguments about abandoned trains, sociopolitical influences on railway building and probably something else eventually?

My dear cousin and drinking buddy Dennis who passed away several years ago was a committed Irish socialist and political activist.  He could not resist viewing my interest in railways prototype and model form a Marxist socio political perspective.

Politically I am somewhere of an agnostic torn between socialist and free market idiology. (not idealogy)

  

[airfixfan]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

What about the ghost train that goes through a few years later, as per the numerous tales on the Donegal - Killybegs section?

Stories are usually about the Ballyshannon branch Railcar

 Derry Road closed on Sunday Feb 14th 1965 but the 3 Donegal stations only had passenger trains on a Saturday!

[Broithe]

Other ghost trains may be available.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150723-why-britain-has-secret-ghost-trains

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

46 minutes ago, Broithe said:

Other ghost trains may be available.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150723-why-britain-has-secret-ghost-trains

Fascinating 

[Bóithre Iarainn]

On 14/2/2024 at 11:22 PM, jhb171achill said:

Without wanting to divert the thread, a few other howlers I've heard over the years, quite often about more than one line - often, with apparent reference to them all:

(a)  "Sure the railways were all built by the British to control us"        Fact check: Class 1 nonsense in all cases, though the British Govt. DID build the Wolfhill and Deerpark lines in 1918 for the coal.

(b)  "They should never have closed it. It would make a fortune today, what with all the tourists an' all".  Fact check: Class 1 nonsense in all cases.

(c)  "When they closed it, sure they sold off all the scrap to make bombs to drop on the Germans".  Fact check: Class 2 nonsense; ONE line, the Clogher Valley, closed in 1942, did have its track recovered for the war effort.

(d)  "Ah sure, it was only closed due to political jiggery-pokery".  Fact check: In the case of the 1957 GNR / SLNCR closures and the "Derry Road", 100% true. For the closure of West Cork, arguably partly to largely true, likewise the BCDR and Ballycastle narrow gauge. In other cases, 90% - 100% nonsense!

(e)  One I heard implied lately, in this era of uneducated conspiracy theories which suggest that all freely, democratically elected governments are in some sense all inherently evil: "All them closures - sure someone was makin' money outta that, I tell ya. Brown envelopes, y'know". We're back to class 1 nonsense, again......and this time with bells and whistles.

By the way, I like that thing yer man has in his garden! Doesn't bear close scrutiny, but no law says it must! Looks great in his garden!

 

I'm not sure about making a fortune but some of the more scenic lines in the west could surely have become very popular with tourists, like the West Highland line is in Scotland? The Valentia branch might be the most likely candidate as it survived relatively late. Understandably CIÉ didn't have the luxury of maintaining remote lines in case they became popular for tourism but it is a shame one or two weren't kept open long enough for it to become plausible.

I see that you don't include the Harcourt Street lines as being shut due to jiggery-pokery. I take it you disagree with the theory that it was sacrificed to justify rural closures?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Bóithre Iarainn said:

I'm not sure about making a fortune but some of the more scenic lines in the west could surely have become very popular with tourists, like the West Highland line is in Scotland? The Valentia branch might be the most likely candidate as it survived relatively late. Understandably CIÉ didn't have the luxury of maintaining remote lines in case they became popular for tourism but it is a shame one or two weren't kept open long enough for it to become plausible.

I see that you don't include the Harcourt Street lines as being shut due to jiggery-pokery. I take it you disagree with the theory that it was sacrificed to justify rural closures?

Re Harcourt St: I would not disagree with that; my listing was not exhaustive!

Re a tourist line - the revenue from that, I’m afraid, might cover 5% of the cost of running it. I could trot out a whole pile of info on this but it’s not enough.

Edited February 17 by jhb171achill

[Bóithre Iarainn]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Re Harcourt St: I would not disagree with that; my listing was not exhaustive!

Re a tourist line - the revenue from that, I’m afraid, might cover 5% of the cost of running it. I could trot out a whole pile of info on this but it’s not enough.

I can't imagine those figures convincing many people in the Department. It's a pity though, it would have been a stunning line to travel on. Is the situation the same on the West Highland Line?

[Galteemore]

18 minutes ago, Bóithre Iarainn said:

I can't imagine those figures convincing many people in the Department. It's a pity though, it would have been a stunning line to travel on. Is the situation the same on the West Highland Line?

Heavily subsidised by Scottish govt, which pays about £9.80 for each passenger journey. Although this is quite good value…..every passenger journey from Inverness to Wick is subsidised at £25!!! 

Edited February 17 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

47 minutes ago, Bóithre Iarainn said:

I can't imagine those figures convincing many people in the Department. It's a pity though, it would have been a stunning line to travel on. Is the situation the same on the West Highland Line?

Indeed - tourism figures on any line would convince nobody to reopen it. The Valentia line, despite being one of the most scenic lines this country ever had, and despite being situated in the single most popular area on this island for tourists outside Dublin, would regrettably be one of the least viable to reopen for any purpose. The lack of freight goes without saying. Local population - other than Cahirciveen and Killorglin, no sizeable towns along the route or near it. Plus, a good road (and buses) between Killorglin and Killarney would compete with even a train to there.

So let's look at tourism. The vast, vast, vast majority of tourists who venture out there are doing the Ring of Kerry, more often than not on a coach tour. Those driving themselves - they will drive the whole way, because if they took the train to Cahirciveen, they can't go on round the Ring as they don't have their car!

Coach tour companies will not switch to rail, as it will add to their overheads and result in their having to either run "empty" from their coach bases in Killarney or Tralee to Valentia or Cahirciveen, but also, probably more importantly, because several of the main tour coach sights and stopping points (and where tour guides and bus drivers get commission) are visitor attractions between Killarney and those places; were the travellers on a train, they'd miss all that. Further, the Ring tour goes right on beyond Cahirciveen, round the south side of the peninsula, which would have to be done by bus. I agree, very nice idea - I've often thought the same about the (even less practical) Achill line. However the big issue is costs, as always. Tourism revenue would be small and very seasonal, but even if it WAS huge, the cost of maintaining the extensive engineering works on that line, plus operating the service all year at a heavy loss, would make the overheads many many times the total revenue, let alone that from tourism alone. You mention the Highland lines in Scotland - these are very heavily subsidised too.

Edited February 17 by jhb171achill

[Bóithre Iarainn]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - tourism figures on any line would convince nobody to reopen it. The Valentia line, despite being one of the most scenic lines this country ever had, and despite being situated in the single most popular area on this island for tourists outside Dublin, would regrettably be one of the least viable to reopen for any purpose. The lack of freight goes without saying. Local population - other than Cahirciveen and Killorglin, no sizeable towns along the route or near it. Plus, a good road (and buses) between Killorglin and Killarney would compete with even a train to there.

So let's look at tourism. The vast, vast, vast majority of tourists who venture out there are doing the Ring of Kerry, more often than not on a coach tour. Those driving themselves - they will drive the whole way, because if they took the train to Cahirciveen, they can't go on round the Ring as they don't have their car!

Coach tour companies will not switch to rail, as it will add to their overheads and result in their having to either run "empty" from their coach bases in Killarney or Tralee to Valentia or Cahirciveen, but also, probably more importantly, because several of the main tour coach sights and stopping points (and where tour guides and bus drivers get commission) are visitor attractions between Killarney and those places; were the travellers on a train, they'd miss all that. Further, the Ring tour goes right on beyond Cahirciveen, round the south side of the peninsula, which would have to be done by bus. I agree, very nice idea - I've often thought the same about the (even less practical) Achill line. However the big issue is costs, as always. Tourism revenue would be small and very seasonal, but even if it WAS huge, the cost of maintaining the extensive engineering works on that line, plus operating the service all year at a heavy loss, would make the overheads many many times the total revenue, let alone that from tourism alone. You mention the Highland lines in Scotland - these are very heavily subsidised too.

That seems fairly conclusive, which is a pity. Not that there'd be much chance of it reopening even it was feasible. I wonder would the same problems apply to the Bundoran line if it had survived? That was meant to be very scenic too I believe, along the shore of Lough Erne. And it actually carried a fairly strong tourist traffic while it was open too.

[LNERW1]

Interesting- I think the potential of the lines as tourist attractions or carriers is quite an interesting idea! As far as I know, the Connemara Railway only plans to run less than 10km of the old line, but a railway to Clifden would, couple with effective  onward transport, allow for easy, environmentally friendly, and hopefully cheap, access to areas like Roundstone, Ballyconneeley, historic areas like the site of the Marconi station and Alcock and Brown’s landing site, etc. as well as providing access to Moycullen, Oughterard, etc. The same could very much be said for the West Cork lines, the Valentia, etc. Also possible would be the line (I believe just a short spur) to Achill station, allowing for access to that and other islands in Clew Bay by rail (and that’s one I can really see an ICR on). Others- Donegal (All of it, including connecting to Derry), West Clare, expansion of holiday services along the former DSER mainline and to Rosslare, Waterford and Tramore, the list goes on and on and on and on and on and… you get the point.

PS- South Wexford? Maybe not, not really a seaside route or serving anywhere of particular historic importance, I’m pretty sure south Wicklow/north Wexford is a lot more historic.

[jhb171achill]

22 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

Interesting- I think the potential of the lines as tourist attractions or carriers is quite an interesting idea! As far as I know, the Connemara Railway only plans to run less than 10km of the old line, but a railway to Clifden would, couple with effective  onward transport, allow for easy, environmentally friendly, and hopefully cheap, access to areas like Roundstone, Ballyconneeley, historic areas like the site of the Marconi station and Alcock and Brown’s landing site, etc. as well as providing access to Moycullen, Oughterard, etc. The same could very much be said for the West Cork lines, the Valentia, etc. Also possible would be the line (I believe just a short spur) to Achill station, allowing for access to that and other islands in Clew Bay by rail (and that’s one I can really see an ICR on). Others- Donegal (All of it, including connecting to Derry), West Clare, expansion of holiday services along the former DSER mainline and to Rosslare, Waterford and Tramore, the list goes on and on and on and on and on and… you get the point.

PS- South Wexford? Maybe not, not really a seaside route or serving anywhere of particular historic importance, I’m pretty sure south Wicklow/north Wexford is a lot more historic.

An ICR to Achill - nice THERE’S an idea! I would be somewhat inclined to think that if Achill was open now we’d probably have a two car 28 on it, though!

In general, though, the big issue with lines like these - Achill, Clifden and Valentia especially - is that they are too remote for generation of a financially self-supporting market.

[Galteemore]

44 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

An ICR to Achill - nice THERE’S an idea! I would be somewhat inclined to think that if Achill was open now we’d probably have a two car 28 on it, though!

In general, though, the big issue with lines like these - Achill, Clifden and Valentia especially - is that they are too remote for generation of a financially self-supporting market.

Absolutely. Closest analogue over here are the Scottish scenic lines (West Highland etc). Every single passenger journey is subsidised by between £12 and £25 by the Holyrood parliament. And these are lines which really are tourist magnets yet still can’t pay. Image courtesy Byway Travel.

Edited May 12 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

Was at a transport event in Letterkenny where a local Councillor stated that they needed the Burtonport Line to re-open for tourists!

[minister_for_hardship]

47 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Was at a transport event in Letterkenny where a local Councillor stated that they needed the Burtonport Line to re-open for tourists!

Typical Councillor 'wouldn't it be lovely' brain-fart.

[Fiacra]

On 11/5/2024 at 1:31 PM, LNERW1 said:

As far as I know, the Connemara Railway only plans to run less than 10km of the old line, but a railway to Clifden would, couple with effective  onward transport, allow for easy, environmentally friendly, and hopefully cheap, access to areas like Roundstone, Ballyconneeley, historic areas like the site of the Marconi station and Alcock and Brown’s landing site, etc. as well as providing access to Moycullen, Oughterard, etc.

In theory, this would be fantastic. However, although much of the old trackbed still exists, there are houses, gardens and other private property on top of it in places now.

[LNERW1]

Fair point- Clifden  station building is intact an in use as a hotel/restaurant/etc. but I'm pretty sure the area beyond the platform is occupied by a Lidl.

[Mayner]

12 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Absolutely. Closest analogue over here are the Scottish scenic lines (West Highland etc). Every single passenger journey is subsidised by between £12 and £25 by the Holyrood parliament. And these are lines which really are tourist magnets yet still can’t pay. Image courtesy Byway Travel.

It would be interesting to find out what the subsidy level paid by the Irish Government per passenger journey (km) on lightly used lines like Limerick-Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction-Waterford as Irish Rail's PSO grant is basically a lump sum to cover operating losses on all pasenger services.

Back in the day of the 1st McKinsey report in the early 70s heavily trafficked lines like Dublin-Cork fare revenue met approx 97% of operating costs, while less heavily trafficed lines line the South-Eastern approx 50%. One of the post Covid NTA reports showed an average revenue gap (shortfall between fare income and operating costs of 54%

Based on a 54% revenue shortfall an on line Connolly-Sligo adult return priced at approx  €33 the average subsidy paid per return  journey on the Sligo line likely to be €17.82, pretty close to the 2004 estimate of €13.46 in a 2004 Independent article which identified that trains received a 30 higher subsidy than busses  https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/trains-subsidised-30-times-more-than-buses/26007270.html

Going back to the West Highland and other Scenic lines in the Highlands my impression when riding them 30 years ago was that the West Highland from Glasgow-Forthwilliam and Mallaig and Inverness-Kyle lines was that the summer season loco hauled trains were quite lightly loaded, though there were a reasonable number of passengers on a 2 Car Class 158 Super-Sprinter evening Inverness-Glasgow service. I don't know if they are still in operation but the West Highland was an important freight for the Aluminium and Paper industry in the Forth William area a major source of local employment. Great lines to travel on though the loco hauled trains and Class 156 units the better.

Edited May 12 by Mayner

[Darrman]

There is an NTA study from 2016 that generally makes for grim reading about the Irish Rail financials. I'm not sure where it's formally published, but some Wikipedia pages source it in outdated "it's very likely the Ballybrophy line will be closed by 2018 in order to save money" statements. The data's ten years old but I doubt things have gotten much better for the two worst offenders here, no thanks to their rubbish schedules.

Link: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/151116_2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

(cropped from page 41)