Future Irish transport museum

[Newtoncork]

Ok, being controversial here. I lived in Scotland for 15 years. We had some great heritage railways who relied on people from England. There is now way we can repeat that here. However, when I lived in Scotland, they pushed the boat out with the Riverside Museum. Cost £74m with an anticipated 1m visitors. More than that now and a lot would be from abroad. It became a place to visit, on the waterfront, amazing architecture, easy to get to etc.

If we were commercial here, would it succeed? I think it would, iconic building, our transport heritage and like in the case of the Riverside, lots of models of boats and locomotives. 

IRM has been a success story (due to the guys hard work, attention to detail and sheer vision) but  I remember being skeptical putting the money down for the first ballast wagons. I didn't  think it would succeed.  But it did, as the guys thought outside the box as to how it could be funded.

So, more controversial, is there a way that we can, as a group, protect our heritage? I, for one, would be willing to give it a go. How could we do it?  Put it forward as a business opportunity? Lottery? Any ideas?

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

It would be great for us as a group and would attract customers/visitors but we are a much smaller pond with far fewer fish to bite, some tourists might be attracted but given the choice between here and the UK I think we would need to have something special to attract more, a great idea though.

[Mayner]

Probably the 1st step would be to establish a working group to contact organisations like the IRRS, RPSI, ITG, other preservation groups, model railway clubs and individuals like JHB and Garfield (IRM) both for information of potential exhibits-collections for a potential museum, but more importantly the pit falls experienced by preservation groups and museum societies in dealing with "Official Ireland"  (State Sponsored bodies like CIE/IE, Central and Local Government)

There have been attempts to establish a Transport Museum and Heritage Railways in the South possibly starting with the Transport Museum Society of Ireland now National Transport Museum focusing on street trams and road vehicles, https://www.nationaltransportmuseum.ie/, there were several failed attempts to establish Broad Gauge Heritage Railways following the 1970-80s round of rail closures whose loco and rolling stock collections are now largely in the care of RPSI,DCDR, ITG and private collections, attempts to establish a National Transport Museum at Mullingar with the support of IE and the main preservation groups during the 1990s were foiled by opposition by the Minister of Transport and IE Sligo Line route modernisation. The Minister of Transport who was also TD for Longford-Westmeath was opposed to the Mullingar museum proposal, ridiculed railway enthusiasts, supporting a counter proposal to establish a Transport Museum in Athlone (Midland) Station needles to say nothing further happened of either proposal.

JHB has been deeply involved with IRRS, RPSI and DCDR both as a historian, the planning and financial aspects of preservation, Garfield was recently (last 10-15 years!) involved in a working group to prepare a feasibility on establishing a "Heritage Railway" in the South.

Another aspect is to include model railways and documents in a potential museum collection, while Drew Donaldson's collection survives in the care of the UFTM (Cultra) and Fry's collection at Malahide. There is potential risk of historically significant Irish models being lost as the older generation pass on and Irish cottage industry manufacturers cease trading.

Tim Cramer produced a significant collection of CIE steam era locos and stock which appeared in magazine articles between the 70s and 90s, pioneering Irish kit manufacturers like Model Irish Railways ceased production during the 2000s,  kit and rtr manufacturers that sprung up during the early 2010s like Model Irish Scale Rail (MISR) and Irish Freight Models (IFM) appear to have ceased trading.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, agreed. The RPSI one at Whitehead is essentially subsidised by the RPSI's steam train operations; it does not break even. Cultra doesn't either. Museums of this type, across ireland north and south, unless they are very small and family run, or volunteer-run*, will not be commercially viable.

If someone with exceptionally deep pockets came along and finded one, that would get it built; depending on what was put in it as a draw might determine the footfall. The Model Railway Museum at Malahide with which I am involved is subsidised by the local authority. For years the carriage gallery at Downpatrick was financially supported by the local authority.

In my time I have been involved in about half a dozen feasibility studies for railway-themed museums across ireland, from Donegal to Clare to Carlow. Once the long-term financial sustainability was being scrutiniesed in each case, end of story.

We differ from Britain in three ways, and it is thus often unrealistic in one sense, unfair in another, to compare the two; the heritage market over there is as different to the island of ireland as DCC microchips are from cabbages, or Indonesian puppets from Germolene. The three differences behind this are as follows:

1.  For every person on the island of Ireland, 7 million of us, there are 65 million in Brexitland; that means there are almost ten times the number of people there. A very busy Santa season at Downpatrick or on the RPSI's Dublin Santas, or indeed a FULL season's visitors to the DCDR, are fewer in number than a somewhat above average weekend at the Severn Valley or Keighley lines.

2.  Not only is the market here much, much smaller, but people here tend to spend less per capita on entertainment / days out of any sort, compared to Britain. Experience of my own - and I do not want to be controversial here, so I'll say this just once - suggests that NI market is particularly geared this way in terms of the all-Ireland picture. Either way, people in England - and I deliberately pick out England as compared to Scotland or Wales, DO spend more on sucvh things. A very large proportion of the more serious donations to the RPSI, in MY time anyway, came from England. Pretty obvious why, in the case of railway preservation - they have the industrial history that we do not have!

3.  Quite a few locomotive or railway heritage operations over there have "big money" behind them; the Alan Peglers and Pete Watermans of this world. This has always been the case. In 25 years of being treasurer of both the DCDR and RPSI, I know of two here who were prepared to(very generously) put very large sums of their own personal money into projects. I know of one other who planned to but sadly passed away, and another who is some way along a road like that. But thyat's it.

Over the years, there have been substantial projects proposed at Mullingar, Moyasta and other places. Local authority funding is largely absent; it took the RPSI decades to end up with funding for Whitehead - but it runs at a loss.

Now, this is not a whinge. This is not anyone's fault. It's just one'o'those things. And, yes, I know it's tiresome oul treasurer-talk, but the sums have to add up; railway enthusiams is powered by emotion, but museums have to powered by cold hard business cases.

A Shildon or NRM York type of thing would be amazing here, but it ain't gonna happen; even if it did, there's nothing much left to put in it!

 

(*  In this case, this doesn't save Whitehead!)

[jhb171achill]

6 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Probably the 1st step would be to establish a working group to contact organisations like the IRRS, RPSI, ITG, other preservation groups, model railway clubs and individuals like JHB and Garfield (IRM) both for information of potential exhibits-collections for a potential museum, but more importantly the pit falls experienced by preservation groups and museum societies in dealing with "Official Ireland"  (State Sponsored bodies like CIE/IE, Central and Local Government)

There have been attempts to establish a Transport Museum and Heritage Railways in the South possibly starting with the Transport Museum Society of Ireland now National Transport Museum focusing on street trams and road vehicles, https://www.nationaltransportmuseum.ie/, there were several failed attempts to establish Broad Gauge Heritage Railways following the 1970-80s round of rail closures whose loco and rolling stock collections are now largely in the care of RPSI,DCDR, ITG and private collections, attempts to establish a National Transport Museum at Mullingar with the support of IE and the main preservation groups during the 1990s were foiled by opposition by the Minister of Transport and IE Sligo Line route modernisation. The Minister of Transport who was also TD for Longford-Westmeath was opposed to the Mullingar museum proposal, ridiculed railway enthusiasts, supporting a counter proposal to establish a Transport Museum in Athlone (Midland) Station needles to say nothing further happened of either proposal.

JHB has been deeply involved with IRRS, RPSI and DCDR both as a historian, the planning and financial aspects of preservation, Garfield was recently (last 10-15 years!) involved in a working group to prepare a feasibility on establishing a "Heritage Railway" in the South.

Another aspect is to include model railways and documents in a potential museum collection, while Drew Donaldson's collection survives in the care of the UFTM (Cultra) and Fry's collection at Malahide. There is potential risk of historically significant Irish models being lost as the older generation pass on and Irish cottage industry manufacturers cease trading.

Tim Cramer produced a significant collection of CIE steam era locos and stock which appeared in magazine articles between the 70s and 90s, pioneering Irish kit manufacturers like Model Irish Railways ceased production during the 2000s,  kit and rtr manufacturers that sprung up during the early 2010s like Model Irish Scale Rail (MISR) and Irish Freight Models (IFM) appear to have ceased trading.

I'd forgotten about Tim Cramer's stuff!

Yes, you've hit on a few interestring points. "Official Ireland"!!! Ooooooh boy. Yup, I'm sure Britain has "Official Britain" when it comes to such things, but it surely can't be as utterly disinterested as ours! That's another thing I forgot to mention.

With much less industrial heritage than britain, and a very dismissive attitude towards railways especially in many rural areas, local policticians have zero interest in railway-themed attractions. About 20 to 30 years ago, I was consulted about three (separate and unrelated) railway heritage schemes, to do the financial stuff. One was based in Belcoo, Co Fermanagh (I sense Galteemore drooling); another was in Tullow, and another potentially involved the Trim - Athboy section of the Kilmessan - Athboy branch. Despite what might have been the beginnings of interest in belcoo, it came to nothing for a number of reasons too convoluted to trot out here. Nobody in any of the three areas, with any sort of local influence, had even the tiniest interest, and asuch things NEED local buy-in.

Anyway, I could go on, but I don't want to bore the pants off everyone!

Sam Carse's models of the CDR are now in the care of the Donegal Railway Heritage Centre.

I think, overall, that small operations like this are the best future anywhere in Ireland; if one looks about in the general area of social and economic history across the board - old restored cottages, OPW sites, archaeologicfal remains - the same picture applies.

I will just finish by saying that places like the DCDR, Whitehead, Cultra or the like deserve our collective ongoing support!

[airfixfan]

Whitehead gets about 8,000 visitors per year which is low as JHB states compared to GB Railway Museums. 

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Whitehead gets about 8,000 visitors per year which is low as JHB states compared to GB Railway Museums. 

Indeed; I’d be interested in Cultra figures too.

The bigger preservation lines in Britain might get that number in a busy weekend - and per head they’ll spend a lot more too.

[leslie10646]

One of the questionable benefits of being a grumpy old 77 year old, is that by now, you've been there, bought the teeshirt and worn it out.

Jonathan is right, there isn't the money, nor the potential support for another railway museum.

I assume from his chosen name that Newtoncork in the Cork area and I'm sorry that the two existing museums are so far from him. Cultra has been widely praised by British pals who've visited and is at least free to enter thanks to MY generosity (as a UK tax payer). Support it.

It's a pity that there are relatively few "Southern" exhibits, but that was an issue of time-line. Most of the interesting Southern kit, like the lovely 4-4-0s, 2-4-0s had gone long before Cultra was open. The price of early dieslisation.

He does mention being "professional" and I must say that I had a bit of a search to find out just what is in Cultra - it's not on their website - that could be better.

Support what's there and don't dissipate scarce resources. 

Edited February 17 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

59 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

One of the questionable benefits of being a grumpy old 77 year old, is that by now, you've been there, bought the teeshirt and worn it out.

Jonathan is right, there isn't the money, nor the potential support for another railway museum.

I assume from his chosen name that Newtoncork in the Cork area and I'm sorry that the two existing museums are so far from him. Cultra has been widely praised by British pals who've visited and is at least free to enter thanks to MY generosity (as a UK tax payer). Support it.

It's a pity that there are relatively few "Southern" exhibits, but that was an issue of time-line. Most of the interesting Southern kit, like the lovely 4-4-0s, 2-4-0s had gone long before Cultra was open. The price of early dieslisation.

He does mention being "professional" and I must say that I had a bit of a search to find out just what is in Cultra - it's not on their website - that could be better.

Support what's there and don't dissipate scarce resources. 

This raises an interesting point I referred to earlier. Firstly, our thanks to Leslie for paying his taxes on time!

Leslie mentions the fact that "southern" exhibits are (and were!) few. This amplifies perfectly what I mentioned earlier - that a suitably numerous body of folks on this island - in all corners of it - and whether elected representatives, public figures or just "normal" people - with a sufficient interest in such things simply doesn't exist, never did, and unless the world changes very dramatically indeed, never will. Local "culture" on this island in terms of memorials and visitor attractions that local authorities or private individuals are prepared to invest in are many, but railways simply don't register. We are not a nation of railway enthusiasts; most of us here, if we think about this, will realise that. So, old locomotives, carriages and stations were all just scrapped, and early (since CIE went diesel earlier than NI or Britain). Sure who wants them oul steam trains - scrap'em, good price for the scrap.

Whitehead had 8000 visitors last year. The NRM in York (not counting Shildon) had 570,000+. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has 200,000+. The vast majority of these by far visited the old houses and folk museum, NOT the railway part. So let's allow maybe 40,000, arguably generouusly, for the Transport gallery - and half or more of these go because of the road vehicles. It is not unrealistic, therefore, to assume that perhaps 15,000 specifically went to see railway exhibits.

Let's number-crunch. 38 times as many people go to the NRM than (probably) specifically the railway exhibits at Cultra. That statistic in itself, if accurate, is telling. However, look closer! There are not 38 times as many people in Britain as there are here - there are ten times as many. That means that VERY roughly speaking, for every railway enthusiast per 1000 people here, there are probably nearly 4 in Britain.

In the years when the RPSI's May Tour used to run (until Covid), the overwhelming majority of those on board were English. For several decades, especially before Santas became "a thing" it was this tour annually which ALONE kept the RPSI afloat. I did the seating plan for some years, and travelled on all but 3 of them from 1978 until they ended, and on none of them would the TOTAL Irish contingent (north and south combined) filled a single coach. I digress..............!

As our transatlantic friends in 'Murrika might say: "Go figure"!

 

Now; it's high time I took my smelling salts and pills, and set about booking online my proposed visits to the Isle of Man, Keithley, Embsay, the NYMR, Swanage and Welsh Highland Railways later this year..............  (good bars in York too, where they know how to piur guinness; but they don't have the beginnings of a clue on such important matters in Lestah....).....

 

Edited February 17 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

Yes, it’s interesting to see that enthusiast groups started in GB some fifty years before the IRRS was founded - and the British movie industry was already satirising enthusiast run railways as early as 1952…..you could have caught a Swilly or SLNC train to watch it….

Edited February 17 by Galteemore

[minister_for_hardship]

49 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

This raises an interesting point I referred to earlier. Firstly, our thanks to Leslie for paying his taxes on time!

Leslie mentions the fact that "southern" exhibits are (and were!) few. This amplifies perfectly what I mentioned earlier - that a suitably numerous body of folks on this island - in all corners of it - and whether elected representatives, public figures or just "normal" people - with a sufficient interest in such things simply doesn't exist, never did, and unless the world changes very dramatically indeed, never will. Local "culture" on this island in terms of memorials and visitor attractions that local authorities or private individuals are prepared to invest in are many, but railways simply don't register. We are not a nation of railway enthusiasts; most of us here, if we think about this, will realise that. So, old locomotives, carriages and stations were all just scrapped, and early (since CIE went diesel earlier than NI or Britain). Sure who wants them oul steam trains - scrap'em, good price for the scrap.

Whitehead had 8000 visitors last year. The NRM in York (not counting Shildon) had 570,000+. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has 200,000+. The vast majority of these by far visited the old houses and folk museum, NOT the railway part. So let's allow maybe 40,000, arguably generouusly, for the Transport gallery - and half or more of these go because of the road vehicles. It is not unrealistic, therefore, to assume that perhaps 15,000 specifically went to see railway exhibits.

Let's number-crunch. 38 times as many people go to the NRM than (probably) specifically the railway exhibits at Cultra. That statistic in itself, if accurate, is telling. However, look closer! There are not 38 times as many people in Britain as there are here - there are ten times as many. That means that VERY roughly speaking, for every railway enthusiast per 1000 people here, there are probably nearly 4 in Britain.

In the years when the RPSI's May Tour used to run (until Covid), the overwhelming majority of those on board were English. For several decades, especially before Santas became "a thing" it was this tour annually which ALONE kept the RPSI afloat. I did the seating plan for some years, and travelled on all but 3 of them from 1978 until they ended, and on none of them would the TOTAL Irish contingent (north and south combined) filled a single coach. I digress..............!

As our transatlantic friends in 'Murrika might say: "Go figure"!

 

Now; it's high time I took my smelling salts and pills, and set about booking online my proposed visits to the Isle of Man, Keithley, Embsay, the NYMR, Swanage and Welsh Highland Railways later this year..............  (good bars in York too, where they know how to piur guinness; but they don't have the beginnings of a clue on such important matters in Lestah....).....

 

Just for comparison, an industrial theme attraction in the same region (Belfast) about some ship that came a cropper netted some 624,000 odd visitors in 2022, pre Plague they had a high of nearly 837,000 coming through their doors in 2018!

Edited February 17 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

6 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Just for comparison, an industrial theme attraction in the same region (Belfast) about some ship that came a cropper netted some 624,000 odd visitors in 2022, pre Plague they had a high of nearly 837,000 coming through their doors in 2018!

Indeed - I omitted to point out that due to its industrial history, the greater Belfast area will have the lion's share of anything "industrial" in Ireland, and that biggish-sized boat accounts for the bulk of THAT; despite thw proximity of Whitehead to what is actually the most intensively "industrial" area on this island, it still doesn't get more than a trickle. Imagine how many Whitehead would get if it was situated in North Mayo or West Cork!

[minister_for_hardship]

34 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes, it’s interesting to see that enthusiast groups started in GB some fifty years before the IRRS was founded - and the British movie industry was already satirising enthusiast run railways as early as 1952…..you could have caught a Swilly or SLNC train to watch it….

By and large kick started by a hodge podge of the public schoolboy set, clergy, assorted middle class with time on their hands and wealthy folk. We did not have such a mix in critical numbers.

[Galteemore]

7 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

By and large kick started by a hodge podge of the public schoolboy set, clergy, assorted middle class with time on their hands and wealthy folk. We did not have such a mix in critical numbers.

Intriguingly, one father figure  of British preservation, LTC Rolt, felt that even GB was ill supplied with Peglers, Holcrofts and Boyds….he opined in the early 50s that the Festiniog project would founder -‘there is only room for one preserved railway in Britain’……and the demographic you mention, small though it is in this country, is certainly highly prominent in the history of Irish preservation…..

Edited February 17 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed; I’d be interested in Cultra figures too.

The bigger preservation lines in Britain might get that number in a busy weekend - and per head they’ll spend a lot more too.

WRM fails to attract school groups unlike the UKFM which is their bread and butter. Have raised website issue with Cultra directly.

[jhb171achill]

Just for info purposes, in case anyone's still awake - I'll outline a few of the "might-have-beens"; tis a slow, cold, rainy Saturday night, and I have not yet decided whether I'm prepared to go down the road tonight for a pint. So; as far as I remember, and having been involved in feasibility studies (promoted by other people, not me!)....

1.  Tullow.

Two wealthy businessmen (so they said) approached the RPSI in the early 1990s. Their question: "Have you any old trains for sale?".  (Yes, I know, I know, but better is to come, dear reader, and they never even mentioned the brits building anything to control us, or lines closed in the 1950s being sold for scrap to make bombs to drop on Germany.....!)  Their rationale: they and their families had been on holiday in Britain and had taken a trip on one of the busier steam railways there, and on a bank holiday. I think it was the Severn Valley, but it doesn't matter. They noted six and seven coach trains jammed to the doors with people, and worked out that the fares paid per mile were very much higher than CIE charged. "Must make an absolute fortune!" they concluded. I exchanged several phone calls and correspondence with them, and we worked out that IF they had the bottomless pockets they claimed to have, and IF they owned the four miles of the trackbed of the line that they said they did, the RPSI could lease the two J15s to them.  In theory. As always in railway preservation, theory and practice are not just on different planets - they are in different galaxies. When the realities of the care and maintenance of steam locos was made clear to them, along with the regulatory necesseties of boiler care and insurance, track maintenance and the like, they ran away scared. We had not yet discussed marketing, public access, sight lines for access roads, suitable access for low loaders bringing rolling stock, and financial sustainability, let alone commented on the fact that half a million tourists just will NOT ever descend on Tullow per year solely to travel four miles behind a J15 with two coaches. However, in an imaginary world, we now have a four mile line from the (then still existing) fully restored Tullow station, complete with original overall roof! Hell, why not throw in a new-build GSWR 4.4.0.....  It would, of course, look great!

2. Belcoo.

This was born of cross-border "Peace Money", along with IFI & ERDF funding. Had it come to pass, and it very nearly did - it would have consisted on a mile and a half of the SLNCR (stop that drooling, Galteemore, that's yer last wanring). This would have run from Belcoo station, across the road and down through fields to the MacNean bridge, which was (and is) in two bits in the water following being blown up by the British Army during the troubles in case those with issues about their presence in the area (which, to be fair, was the majority locally!) might use it to escape their attentions when moving things that might go "bang" about during nocturnal hours. And the funding was THERE! Yes, a first time for everything.

Unfortunately, this dropped dead in the water due to a discrepancy of opinion amongst two leading local landowners, each of whom took the view that if the other one was in favour, well I'm aginst it. Had it come to pass, it was to be done on a low-cost, low key basis. With approval from IE, the Sligo railcar was to go to Brexitland to be refurbed and fitted with an almost new Gardner engine similar to the Donegal railcars. This was long before there was any talk of that vehicle going to Downpatrick; it was then languishing in Mallow, to which certain scrap merchants had, eh, travelled in order to relieve it of anything valuable, but thus enabling rain to get in and rust parts of it from the inside out. (At least it has survived). Permission WAS obtained for that, and Fermanagh Council agreed to part-fund it. Next, the RPSI would be approached with a view to having "Lough Erne" as a static exhibit there, and the NCC Railcar No. 1 also given a refurb and an identical Gardner engine. Ulsterbus was prepared to provide sheet metal and upholstery. The line would operate from Belcoo down to the lake shore - an excellent scheme. The terminus, like inch Abbey, would be a platform with short run round. No frills, but perfect for a location like that. No nonsensical, emotion-driven notions of new-builds hauling Enterprise-sized trains, to which every tourist on the island would surely want to do rather than go to the Giant's Causeway, Trinity College or the Cliffs of Moher. A "G" class, the Whitehead MGWR six-wheeler, again restored, and a brake van - all of which were available - would complete the entire stock. No endless sidings full of unsightly scrap - there was no room for anything like that anyway. An old carriage chassis - laminate, I think it was, with a flat floor on it, would serve as a loco-pushed "work wagon", similar to that at Downpatrick back in the day. By the time there was some sort of light of day where the two local landowners MIGHT agree, the funding pots were dried up, never to be repeated again on such generous terms.

Personally, the above would have been my favourite.

3. Athboy.

Another one I liked, and invested much research in. A study group was established; a founder member of IRM was one of the gang; in which the issue of a DCDR-style heritage railway within maybe an hour's drive of Dublin was contemplated. The purpose of the group was to extensively research what was possible, what suitable funding sources might be there, and what engineering and other issues might have to be addressed.

In an initial meeting, and following some groundwork by several members, some eighteen possible sites were identified. Any with level crossings or access issues, either for the general public or bringing rolling stock in, were obviously eliminated straight away once those issues became known. From memory, there were two separate sites on the old Tullow branch looked at, a complete green-field site in Co. Wexford, where a new line could run along the river bank for two miles near Bunclody; a stretch near Carlingford, and a possible bit of the Kingscourt line were all looked at. Within one and a half meetings, we were left with two possibilities. For one reason or another all of the others were eliminated completely (as opposed to being considered less desirable). The two were Ballinglen - near Tinahely on the Shillelagh branch, now a rough greenway type of footpath; and Trim to Athboy.

Both Trim and Athboy stations were long gone, but road access was fine, both are tourist towns, near a motorway, etc etc. So what would it have looked like?

One end would have been fairly rudimentary, a la Inch Abbey. The other, probably the Athboy end, would be a new-build small station with the appearance of a small Dublin & Meath station. Rolling stock would be - with the initial agreement of the ITG - three "G" class; one on loan from Downpatrick, and two from Carrick-on-Suir. All three would be sent to Germany, where these things were still being built NEW at the time, or had been in the very recent past, and refurbed over there into as-delivered condition. Several laminates would be obtained, possibly heated in the same way the Loughrea coach was. Again, the Whitehead six-wheeler, a basic couple of ballast hoppers, work bogie and guard's van, and nothing else. Space would be available in a museum for displaying an RPSI or Cultra steam loco which was not in use.

What went wrong with THAT one was that one landowner owned well over half of the route, which was straight and entirely clear, just through fields. That landowner was having none of it.

The study group presented its findings to the local authorities / councillors at each end of the line. On a scale of 1-100, the interest level shown was 0.

 

So there's a few might have beens to discuss over pints tonight, wherever you'll be!

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

37 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Intriguingly, one father figure  of British preservation, LTC Rolt, felt that even GB was ill supplied with Peglers, Holcrofts and Boyds….he opined in the early 50s that the Festiniog project would founder -‘there is only room for one preserved railway in Britain’……and the demographic you mention, small though it is in this country, is certainly highly prominent in the history of Irish preservation…..

True, but what we have now is likely to be the limit. We've done well for our size, and our very limited level of interest but we're still much, much smaller.

[Galteemore]

56 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

True, but what we have now is likely to be the limit. We've done well for our size, and our very limited level of interest but we're still much, much smaller.

That’s actually the point I was trying to make JB - even in the home of preservation, no one expected too much to happen! 

[minister_for_hardship]

10 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

That’s actually the point I was trying to make JB - even in the home of preservation, no one expected too much to happen! 

Back in the 50s, he hadn't foreseen the rise of the middle classes, the so-called "people who get up early in the morning" with the cash and leisure time to put bums on seats plus the active retired living longer and again, with money to spend.

Back in 1950-squat, if you made it to retirement, you *might* have at best a decade before you shuffled off the stage.

I don't think anyone could grasp back then that a set of children's books about talking engines would spawn a multi million animation and merch industry thus bringing younger enthusiasts in the door!

Edited February 17 by minister_for_hardship

[Galteemore]

Agreed, although contemporary sci-fi was predicting large amounts of leisure time! I have often wondered how preservation will weather the passing of that generation, who could retire relatively early and relatively wealthy. I will certainly not be able to retire at the age my father did - and the time that I would happily spend volunteering will have to be spent in paid employment. 

[DERAILED]

Over the years I have put numerous proposals to politicians of all colours, and others, on the need for a National Transport Museum and I might as well have been talking to the wall. I have nothing further to say on the matter but as the saying goes, a picture paints a thousand words and this recent photo of the 'preserved ' MV Naomh Éanna (CIE's Aran Island Ferry) says it all.

https://www.facebook.com/MVNaomhEanna

[David Holman]

It is a sombre fact that when state pension from the age of 65 was first introduced, the life expectancy of the average working man was just 48...

 Now 'they' complain that we are living too long and the older generation are a burden on society! An answer to that is in the wonderful book 'This Thing of Darkness' - the story of Captain Robert Fitzroy's voyage with Darwin on the Beagle. When they reached the tip of South America, they noticed that there were no older folk among the local tribes people. When asked if they moved North to avoid the cold winters, the reply was they weren't there because they ate them!

[226 Abhann na Suire]

All very interesting and very melancholy points mentioned above about what could have been of Ireland’s preserved railways scene. It’s such a shame about the lack of funding and interest for the existing projects across the country and that this leaves little to no room for new projects.

However I notice nobody has mentioned Maam Cross yet… is there a reason for that? Seems like a very sensible, ambitious, but not overly so, and level-headed-run project, and I wish it only the very very best in the future, I only just hope that it gains the traction and support it deserves and continues to grow!

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, David Holman said:

It is a sombre fact that when state pension from the age of 65 was first introduced, the life expectancy of the average working man was just 48...

 Now 'they' complain that we are living too long and the older generation are a burden on society! An answer to that is in the wonderful book 'This Thing of Darkness' - the story of Captain Robert Fitzroy's voyage with Darwin on the Beagle. When they reached the tip of South America, they noticed that there were no older folk among the local tribes people. When asked if they moved North to avoid the cold winters, the reply was they weren't there because they ate them!

I'd better start eating unpleasant things so that I won't taste nice.......  so it's snails, garlic, germolene and strawberry jam for supper, with a sauce of over-ripe raspberries, out-of-date rashers, onion gravy (stale) and tapioca. 

11 minutes ago, DERAILED said:

Over the years I have put numerous proposals to politicians of all colours, and others, on the need for a National Transport Museum and I might as well have been talking to the wall. I have nothing further to say on the matter but as the saying goes, a picture paints a thousand words and this recent photo of the 'preserved ' MV Naomh Éanna (CIE's Aran Island Ferry) says it all.

https://www.facebook.com/MVNaomhEanna

Yup - says it in a nutshell. Now, if that thing had been used in 1916 in Kerry, or in 1690 in the north, it would be preserved. Not otherwise. (I wonder if I could get those letters off...)

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Just for info purposes, in case anyone's still awake - I'll outline a few of the "might-have-beens"; tis a slow, cold, rainy Saturday night, and I have not yet decided whether I'm prepared to go down the road tonight for a pint. So; as far as I remember, and having been involved in feasibility studies (promoted by other people, not me!)....

1.  Tullow.

Two wealthy businessmen (so they said) approached the RPSI in the early 1990s. Their question: "Have you any old trains for sale?".  (Yes, I know, I know, but better is to come, dear reader, and they never even mentioned the brits building anything to control us, or lines closed in the 1950s being sold for scrap to make bombs to drop on Germany.....!)  Their rationale: they and their families had been on holiday in Britain and had taken a trip on one of the busier steam railways there, and on a bank holiday. I think it was the Severn Valley, but it doesn't matter. They noted six and seven coach trains jammed to the doors with people, and worked out that the fares paid per mile were very much higher than CIE charged. "Must make an absolute fortune!" they concluded. I exchanged several phone calls and correspondence with them, and we worked out that IF they had the bottomless pockets they claimed to have, and IF they owned the four miles of the trackbed of the line that they said they did, the RPSI could lease the two J15s to them.  In theory. As always in railway preservation, theory and practice are not just on different planets - they are in different galaxies. When the realities of the care and maintenance of steam locos was made clear to them, along with the regulatory necesseties of boiler care and insurance, track maintenance and the like, they ran away scared. We had not yet discussed marketing, public access, sight lines for access roads, suitable access for low loaders bringing rolling stock, and financial sustainability, let alone commented on the fact that half a million tourists just will NOT ever descend on Tullow per year solely to travel four miles behind a J15 with two coaches. However, in an imaginary world, we now have a four mile line from the (then still existing) fully restored Tullow station, complete with original overall roof! Hell, why not throw in a new-build GSWR 4.4.0.....  It would, of course, look great!

2. Belcoo.

This was born of cross-border "Peace Money", along with IFI & ERDF funding. Had it come to pass, and it very nearly did - it would have consisted on a mile and a half of the SLNCR (stop that drooling, Galteemore, that's yer last wanring). This would have run from Belcoo station, across the road and down through fields to the MacNean bridge, which was (and is) in two bits in the water following being blown up by the British Army during the troubles in case those with issues about their presence in the area (which, to be fair, was the majority locally!) might use it to escape their attentions when moving things that might go "bang" about during nocturnal hours. And the funding was THERE! Yes, a first time for everything.

Unfortunately, this dropped dead in the water due to a discrepancy of opinion amongst two leading local landowners, each of whom took the view that if the other one was in favour, well I'm aginst it. Had it come to pass, it was to be done on a low-cost, low key basis. With approval from IE, the Sligo railcar was to go to Brexitland to be refurbed and fitted with an almost new Gardner engine similar to the Donegal railcars. This was long before there was any talk of that vehicle going to Downpatrick; it was then languishing in Mallow, to which certain scrap merchants had, eh, travelled in order to relieve it of anything valuable, but thus enabling rain to get in and rust parts of it from the inside out. (At least it has survived). Permission WAS obtained for that, and Fermanagh Council agreed to part-fund it. Next, the RPSI would be approached with a view to having "Lough Erne" as a static exhibit there, and the NCC Railcar No. 1 also given a refurb and an identical Gardner engine. Ulsterbus was prepared to provide sheet metal and upholstery. The line would operate from Belcoo down to the lake shore - an excellent scheme. The terminus, like inch Abbey, would be a platform with short run round. No frills, but perfect for a location like that. No nonsensical, emotion-driven notions of new-builds hauling Enterprise-sized trains, to which every tourist on the island would surely want to do rather than go to the Giant's Causeway, Trinity College or the Cliffs of Moher. A "G" class, the Whitehead MGWR six-wheeler, again restored, and a brake van - all of which were available - would complete the entire stock. No endless sidings full of unsightly scrap - there was no room for anything like that anyway. An old carriage chassis - laminate, I think it was, with a flat floor on it, would serve as a loco-pushed "work wagon", similar to that at Downpatrick back in the day. By the time there was some sort of light of day where the two local landowners MIGHT agree, the funding pots were dried up, never to be repeated again on such generous terms.

Personally, the above would have been my favourite.

3. Athboy.

Another one I liked, and invested much research in. A study group was established; a founder member of IRM was one of the gang; in which the issue of a DCDR-style heritage railway within maybe an hour's drive of Dublin was contemplated. The purpose of the group was to extensively research what was possible, what suitable funding sources might be there, and what engineering and other issues might have to be addressed.

In an initial meeting, and following some groundwork by several members, some eighteen possible sites were identified. Any with level crossings or access issues, either for the general public or bringing rolling stock in, were obviously eliminated straight away once those issues became known. From memory, there were two separate sites on the old Tullow branch looked at, a complete green-field site in Co. Wexford, where a new line could run along the river bank for two miles near Bunclody; a stretch near Carlingford, and a possible bit of the Kingscourt line were all looked at. Within one and a half meetings, we were left with two possibilities. For one reason or another all of the others were eliminated completely (as opposed to being considered less desirable). The two were Ballinglen - near Tinahely on the Shillelagh branch, now a rough greenway type of footpath; and Trim to Athboy.

Both Trim and Athboy stations were long gone, but road access was fine, both are tourist towns, near a motorway, etc etc. So what would it have looked like?

One end would have been fairly rudimentary, a la Inch Abbey. The other, probably the Athboy end, would be a new-build small station with the appearance of a small Dublin & Meath station. Rolling stock would be - with the initial agreement of the ITG - three "G" class; one on loan from Downpatrick, and two from Carrick-on-Suir. All three would be sent to Germany, where these things were still being built NEW at the time, or had been in the very recent past, and refurbed over there into as-delivered condition. Several laminates would be obtained, possibly heated in the same way the Loughrea coach was. Again, the Whitehead six-wheeler, a basic couple of ballast hoppers, work bogie and guard's van, and nothing else. Space would be available in a museum for displaying an RPSI or Cultra steam loco which was not in use.

What went wrong with THAT one was that one landowner owned well over half of the route, which was straight and entirely clear, just through fields. That landowner was having none of it.

The study group presented its findings to the local authorities / councillors at each end of the line. On a scale of 1-100, the interest level shown was 0.

 

So there's a few might have beens to discuss over pints tonight, wherever you'll be!

For pure nostalgia Athboy-Trim would have been the apple of my eye, childhood memories of a land of disused railways, castles and later fishing trips with my father. 

Athboy Station survived intact with all its railway buildings until re-developed for housing in the late 90s-early 2000s, Trim was long gone and too far from the Town Centre and Castle.  A station/platform nearer the Castle might have helped boost passenger numbers, or possibly a short train ride for Tour Bus passengers, I doubt that Trim & St John's Castle visitor numbers are anything like attractions like the Giants Causeway or Carnarfon Castle.

Coach Tour operators switch to rail.

Going cross-threaded.  Tour and Coach (bus) operators in the UK and elsewhere do include end-to end trips on Tourist Railways in their tour itinerary and coach operators co-operate with Tourist Railways to provide coach transfers between destinations.  Much of the Festiniog Railways bread and butter income came from carrying coach tour passengers between Portmadoc and Tanyrisaiu 12 miles up the line.   On a more extreme scale on the Cumbres and Toltec in the  States passengers travelling the full 64 mile 6½hour journey over the line have for the past 40 years traveled in one direction by train, the other direction by coach/bus. The Durango and Silverton offer a similar option for passengers who don't want to spend the whole day on the train.

Nearer to home much of the Clonmacnoise and West Offaly (BNM Boora late 80s-mid 90s) came from the Coach Tour business.

The Valencia line closure came at a time before Local and Central Governments viewed uneconomic scenic railway lines as a potential source of Tourist Income and tax/rate income. It was not until the 70s that the potential was realised in the UK and Councils began buying and leasing scenic lines like the North Yorkshire Moors and West Somerset to preservation societies, New Mexico-Colorado realised the potential in the late 60s buying a remote/scenic 64 mile narrow gauge section of the DRGW for operation as a Tourist Railway, Dunedin (NZ) did not realise the potential until the late 80s buying the 37 mile Taieri Gorge section of the Otago Central Railway for operation as a Tourist Attraction.

The one major difference between the Valencia the Taieri Gorge, Cumbres and Toltec and Durango and Silverton is that the scenic sections of all lines are largely inaccessible by road and more spectacular in nature tha the Drung Hill section of the Valencia line.  While the Cumbres and Toltec is in a remote area, Durango has been a thriving tourist centre for many years, the Traieri Gorge's income comes mainly from ferrying Cruise Ship passengers directly from their ship to a wild and remote gorge.

In simple terms Kells-Mountain Stage section of the Valencia line would have been an interesting train ride, with the same but slightly higher views of Dingle Bay thus hardly likely to attract casual or Coach Tour passengers. 

The Tralee and Blennerville tends to fall down in a similar manner, why take a train from Ballyard to the Windmill when you can park by the Windmill, on the other hand the Waterford and Suir Valley ticks the box in terms of a short train ride through a riverside location that not accessible by car or Tour Bus!  The cycleway is not an issue have become an adjunct to Tourist/Heritage railways since the 80s. Potential option of fitting hooks for cycles to the trains similar to the Dublin and Blessington, allowing cyclists to return home in the comfort of the train tram. Common complaint about the D&B was the Tram breaking down shortly after leaving Blessington and cyclists having to dismount and cycle home and tackle the climb to the summit at Crooksling in the dark 

Museums

Going back to a museum in the South going back to past experiences its unlikely to be commercially viable and considerable political lobbying would be required at national level to include a railway museum in the National Museum's remit.

Volunteer groups (RPSI, ITG, National Transport Museum, IRRS) and individuals working on their own initiative have had the most success.

In Cork or Munster contacting the Cork Area of the IRRS and railway enthusiasts who live in the province to gauge the level of interest would be a first step.

 

[David Holman]

Don't know if I'm in a minority on this, but I much prefer to watch preserved trains go by than ride on one.  As Mayner says, much depends on the experience too.

 For example, the Bluebell Railway is good because it passes pleasant scenery and has at least one summit in the middle. Likewise, the North York Moors. The Kent and Easy Sussex is pleasant and certainly does a fine job of recreating the days of Colonel Stephens. However, the only real gradient (a steep one admittedly) is from Rolvenden to Tenterden and this is the only time you see and hear trains working hard. Going out from Tenterden is very low key. The Ffestiniog and for that matter the Durango and Silverton have the same 'problem', albeit with dramatic scenery to compensate.

 Enjoyed my trip to Silverton, but less so on the way back, but my favourite memory was waiting at the crossing just outside Durango, with the morning train whistling its way out of town before attacking the start of the gradient in very fine style.

 I think, with so many preserved railways to choose from this side of the water, some sort of theme is essential to bring non enthusiasts along. If you don't have the scenery, you might need to get creative, as per the Nene Valley with its continental stock.

 At least Ireland has its mainline steam tours, but the lack of much in the way of tourist railways is a shame, especially with so many failed ventures to look back on. If it had survived longer, the Hill of Howth tram would probably make money as a preserved line today, but it is hard to think of other options that might make a living. Over here, you actually expect there to be a tourist railway every few miles down the road - and indeed they often are! It seems general folk in Ireland are far less interested and breaking that chain will always be difficult nowadays.

[minister_for_hardship]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

Yup - says it in a nutshell. Now, if that thing had been used in 1916 in Kerry, or in 1690 in the north, it would be preserved. Not otherwise. (I wonder if I could get those letters off...)

Even so, an item of national importance like armoured car Sliabh na mBan was not officially preserved by the State, just a handful of interested people who literally hid it around the Curragh, concealed it off the books saved it from the scrapman. Now it is priceless.

Re 1916 and all that, I believe there's an ongoing tug of war about the buildings on Moore Street, whether they are to be developed into a commercial premises or in the form of museum. If it was any other country, a site linked to its Independence would be preserved and cherished. Here it's the fingers "in a greasy till"...

Edited February 18 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

15 hours ago, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

All very interesting and very melancholy points mentioned above about what could have been of Ireland’s preserved railways scene. It’s such a shame about the lack of funding and interest for the existing projects across the country and that this leaves little to no room for new projects.

However I notice nobody has mentioned Maam Cross yet… is there a reason for that? Seems like a very sensible, ambitious, but not overly so, and level-headed-run project, and I wish it only the very very best in the future, I only just hope that it gains the traction and support it deserves and continues to grow!

Schemes like that can have a precarious long-term prospect. There are several existing (operational) examples of this species; a privately-owned operation funded by one individual with very deep pockets, but no preservation society as such to take it over when they age, like all of us. We see what’s happening at Moyasta; a well-meaning individual now getting on in years, close to being no longer able to run it. 

The other issue with places like Moyasta, Maam Cross, Finntown and the like is that they are in the absolute back end of nowhere. There is zero financially self-supporting market, and few or no local volunteers. Finntown exists due to being funded by a local co-operative. The others mentioned are the private property of one person, and thus dependent upon their personal funds and circumstances - and health!

While I am open to correction on this, it is my understanding that the owners of several of the privately owned ones - two at least - are (perhaps unwisely) completely opposed to having a preservation society set up to administer and run the thing.

In terms of my own earlier comments, I was sticking to those which got up and running, and do so; and also a few “might have beens”. 

Just thought of another; in the 1990s again, I was told of a plan (which, for numerous reasons was utterly impractical) to restore about a mile of the Achill line near Mulrany!

[airfixfan]

Fintown supported by money from the Gaeltacht and hear that they may not run this year!

[DERAILED]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Schemes like that can have a precarious long-term prospect. There are several existing (operational) examples of this species; a privately-owned operation funded by one individual with very deep pockets, but no preservation society as such to take it over when they age, like all of us. We see what’s happening at Moyasta; a well-meaning individual now getting on in years, close to being no longer able to run it. 

The other issue with places like Moyasta, Maam Cross, Finntown and the like is that they are in the absolute back end of nowhere. There is zero financially self-supporting market, and few or no local volunteers. Finntown exists due to being funded by a local co-operative. The others mentioned are the private property of one person, and thus dependent upon their personal funds and circumstances - and health!

While I am open to correction on this, it is my understanding that the owners of several of the privately owned ones - two at least - are (perhaps unwisely) completely opposed to having a preservation society set up to administer and run the thing.

In terms of my own earlier comments, I was sticking to those which got up and running, and do so; and also a few “might have beens”. 

Just thought of another; in the 1990s again, I was told of a plan (which, for numerous reasons was utterly impractical) to restore about a mile of the Achill line near Mulrany!

Malranny was indeed examined in the early nineties but considered too remote and we mistakenly settled on the other place. At the time the station and GS hotel at Mulrany were on the market with 80 acres for IR£120,000 - how times have changed!

EDIT: My memory fails - it was IR£175,000 but still a bargain.

Edited February 18 by DERAILED

[jhb171achill]

Just now, DERAILED said:

Malranny was indeed examined in the early nineties but considered too remote and we mistakenly settled on the other place. At the time the station and GS hotel at Mulrany were on the market with 80 acres for IR£120,000 - how times have changed!

And in addition to your good self, Derailed, another party quite separately looked at this site! But like so much in railway preservations, the "ideas man" must eventually play second fiddle to the "practicality / reality man"! Mulrany would have been amazing - especially to me - but was a non-runner for a whole range of reasons, even with considerable private funding behind it, had that been available.

[minister_for_hardship]

Re transport museums in general, even being located in a major league tourist town is no guarantee of survival. Blarney once had a veteran car museum back in the 70s and more recently Killarney up to the early 00s. In the case of Killarney it was family owned and it was decided to auction off the exhibits, a hotel stands on the site now. Not a peep out of anyone in the town wanting to retain it there.

Official Ireland and Bórd Failte or whatever they're called now have a set idea what interests tourists (The Craic (TM), ancestry hunting, Book Of Kells, surfing in freezing water) A transport or any sort of technical museum isn't in there. 

[hurricanemk1c]

On 17/2/2024 at 12:57 AM, jhb171achill said:

Pretty obvious why, in the case of railway preservation - they have the industrial history that we do not have!

We have industrial heritage, and plenty of it. It's just culturally determined as "British" and therefore doesn't fit into the post independence "everything British was bad" mindset of a lot of museums around the country. That affects not just railways but any industry of note that has been here

[minister_for_hardship]

11 minutes ago, hurricanemk1c said:

We have industrial heritage, and plenty of it. It's just culturally determined as "British" and therefore doesn't fit into the post independence "everything British was bad" mindset of a lot of museums around the country. That affects not just railways but any industry of note that has been here

To add to that, I firmly believe there is an anti heritage mindset in the general population. Old things and old buildings are not looked fondly upon, just reminders of bad old days and poverty, a general unwillingness to reuse and repurpose old structures as it's thought to be too expensive.

[Brack]

When I lived there (2001-3) I can think of some intact unused track in the middle of dublin next to a major tourist attraction, with surviving original stock and locos which mightve been restored fairly easily.

 

Guinness presumably not interested?