Basic brass locomotive etchs

[Colin R]

Hi Guys, I have just spoken to Allen Doherty and he tells me that no one has sent him any Irish loco drawings recently so if you want him to produce the etches for any Irish steam loco, now is your opportunity to do so.

The only proviso is that he would like to know that he could produce a minimum of six kits that will have homes to go to.

I am, not sure if anything happened but I would not mind the loco that appeared in the Quiet Man film.

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike 84C]

I would very much like a J5, a repainted LMS 4f just does not do it for me! Only fly in the ointment , is the chimney out, with the brass bar and the Uni-Mat.  

[Colin R]

yes sadly it will be the case of either finding something suitable or making your own for all the boiler fittings

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Colin R said:

....The only proviso is that he would like to know that he could produce a minimum of six kits that will have homes to go to....

As they used to say in football manager-speak, "that's a big ask".

I'd quite like to put away some future etches for the GS&W 400 and 500 class 4-6-0s and tenders, but there have never been good enough drawings available to the standard that Allen would need to plan his artwork. Same goes for the big 3300 gallon tender that no.186 is attached to - that would be a useful one to have as an etch set.

[GSR 800]

7 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

As they used to say in football manager-speak, "that's a big ask".

I'd quite like to put away some future etches for the GS&W 400 and 500 class 4-6-0s and tenders, but there have never been good enough drawings available to the standard that Allen would need to plan his artwork. Same goes for the big 3300 gallon tender that no.186 is attached to - that would be a useful one to have as an etch set.

There's also 400 drawings floating around. I'd imagine 402 would be the standard choice, with the flush footplate, though the split footplate was a characteristic of the rest of the class post rebuild (apart from when fitted with the caprotti vg).

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, Colin R said:

Hi Guys, I have just spoken to Allen Doherty and he tells me that no one has sent him any Irish loco drawings recently so if you want him to produce the etches for any Irish steam loco, now is your opportunity to do so.

The only proviso is that he would like to know that he could produce a minimum of six kits that will have homes to go to.

I am, not sure if anything happened but I would not mind the loco that appeared in the Quiet Man film.

 

Colin

 

I agree with HT finding orders for six sets of Worsley Works parts for an Irish steam loco is a big ask. In my experience overall demand for kits of Irish locos and stock is very low and demand for basic kits/scratchbuilders parts of Irish locos almost non-existant. 

Sales of the JMD  GSWR 52 Class, MGWR Ks/ GSR 650  2-4-0 averaged 12 kits, HT was the only person who was prepared to place an order when I announced the Z Boiler conversion kit for the SSM J15.

I can supply the  etched parts for the GSWR 52 Class (Quiet Man engine", MGWR  Ks, 650 2-4-0, MGWR Meat Van, MGWR Horse Box to order in 4mm and 2mm scales direct from our supplier in the UK. The 52 Class was originally intended to run with the SSM 1804 (J15 tender) however a set of parts for the larger GSWR Type B tender built to run with gthe 52 Class is also available to order.

I have also produced an etch for the (slightly) larger 60 Class (D14) 4-4-0, but haven't had time to assemble the loco.

I can supply the etches of the 52 Class, 3 versions of the MGWR Ks/650 Class, MGWR Meat Van & Horseboxes to order direct from our supplier in the UK in 4mm and 2mm scales. The 2mm versions were originally commissioned by Angus.

Edited August 20 by Mayner

[Killian Keane]

5 hours ago, Horsetan said:

As they used to say in football manager-speak, "that's a big ask".

I'd quite like to put away some future etches for the GS&W 400 and 500 class 4-6-0s and tenders, but there have never been good enough drawings available to the standard that Allen would need to plan his artwork. Same goes for the big 3300 gallon tender that no.186 is attached to - that would be a useful one to have as an etch set.

This might be of use to you

 

[Horsetan]

3 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

This might be of use to you

 

Yes, although Allen's going to need a fair bit more than that.

[Horsetan]

On 20/8/2024 at 11:34 PM, Mayner said:

....HT was the only person who was prepared to place an order when I announced the Z Boiler conversion kit for the SSM J15.....

....and very good value that Z conversion etch turned out to be, as the first one had mysteriously missing rivet detail. The replacement was perfect, meaning I had two etches for the price of one and a source of spares in case of assembly mistakes.

It then turned out Des was out of stock of J15 kits, and he had to wait about five months for supplies of new etches to arrive!

Edited August 22 by Horsetan

[Mayner]

25 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

....and very good value that Z conversion etch turned out to be, as the first one had mysteriously missing rivet detail. The replacement was perfect, meaning I had two etches for the price of one and a source of spares in case of assembly mistakes.

It then turned out Des was out of stock of J15 kits, and he had to wait about five months for supplies of new etches to arrive!

The J15 conversion kit evolved significantly since the initial test etch was prepared about 10 years earlier, to include modular firebox and smokebox sub-assemblies and replacement loco and tender brake gear. The rivets were missed in the production batch as a result of a change from my usual drawing methodology and our supplier PPD promptly supplied replacement frets without charge and my customers ending up with a source of spares.

Interestingly I noticed that one of the coupling rods was damaged on my superheated J15 a work in progress for the past 10 years and HT has reminded me that I have a set of replacement rods in stock and may actually find time to complete the loco this year.

 

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

The J15 conversion kit evolved significantly since the initial test etch was prepared about 10 years earlier, to include modular firebox and smokebox sub-assemblies and replacement loco and tender brake gear. The rivets were missed in the production batch as a result of a change from my usual drawing methodology and our supplier PPD promptly supplied replacement frets without charge and my customers ending up with a source of spares....

 

I have absolutely no complaints. Spares are always useful where the product is a limited run.

Currently looking at different types of rivet strip to see if the faulty etch can be rescued....

[Angus]

Coming a little bit late to this thread, another vote for a J5, so that just leaves four more to find. The only snag is I need mine in 2mm scale so not sure that counts? I'd be happy to order a couple of etches if it helps make up the numbers.

I feel the real missing engine is the more utilitarian MGWR 0-6-0s the L class (J18/J19). 

I'd also love one of Mayner's Z boiler etches in 2mm scale but having asked him to reduce some of his kits these have lain in the gloat pile gathering dust whilst my Irish modelling takes a back seat for a while. I really need to get on with what I've got 4!

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Angus said:

....I'd also love one of Mayner's Z boiler etches in 2mm scale but having asked him to reduce some of his kits these have lain in the gloat pile gathering dust whilst my Irish modelling takes a back seat for a while.....

Maybe if you offer to financially sponsor the work required, he might agree to the 2mm thing?

[Mayner]

12 hours ago, Angus said:

Coming a little bit late to this thread, another vote for a J5, so that just leaves four more to find. The only snag is I need mine in 2mm scale so not sure that counts? I'd be happy to order a couple of etches if it helps make up the numbers.

I feel the real missing engine is the more utilitarian MGWR 0-6-0s the L class (J18/J19). 

I'd also love one of Mayner's Z boiler etches in 2mm scale but having asked him to reduce some of his kits these have lain in the gloat pile gathering dust whilst my Irish modelling takes a back seat for a while. I really need to get on with what I've got 4!

The GSR superheated version of the MGWR has been on my to-do list for several years but I am unlikely to have time to draw up artwork for an etch for another year or two.

The J5 is another engine that fell by the wayside, I bought a set of wheels, gearbox, motor and boiler fittings to 'scratchbuild' a J5 about 40 years ago but got distracted assembling etched loco kits Irish and British outline.

While I could rescale and modify the Z Boiler J15 etch to 2mm, someone would also need to persuade Des to reduce the TMD/SSM J15 etch to 2mm or possibly draw up 2mm J15 artwork from scratch. I am not convinced the original TMD artwork would successfully re-scale from 4mm to 2mm as some of the parts on the TMD/SSM are close to the limits of what can be successfully etched.

Going back to HT question to Angus about sponsoring re-scaling the Z Boiler etch to 2mm, Angus sponsored the re-scaling of several of my etches to 2mm including MGWR 2-4-0, Horse Box & Meat Vans and GSWR 52 Class 4-4-0.

My main concern is that a model designed in 4mm or 7mm may not successfully re-scale to a smaller scale without carrying out a test build and carrying out the necessary connections. Its challenging enough getting it right first time without a test build in the designed scale.

[David Holman]

Alphagraphix do a J18/19 in 7mm scale, though Mayner's comments still apply. No idea what Terry McDermott did to create a 101 (J15) for Richard Chown, but presume the kit was rescaled/drawn/photographed from his 4mm version. Either way, he did an excellent job because when the kit fell into my hands 20 years later it proved very good to build. See Tribute to Richard Chown on the Work bench thread.

 Wish I could say the same thing about the Alan Gibson 7mm scale Great Eastern 2-4-0  kit I built in the late 90's. Suspect it was a blow up of a 4mm version which wasn't exactly great in the first place, so enlarging everything only amplified the errors! Taught me a lot though...

[Angus]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

While I could rescale and modify the Z Boiler J15 etch to 2mm, someone would also need to persuade Des to reduce the TMD/SSM J15 etch to 2mm or possibly draw up 2mm J15 artwork from scratch. I am not convinced the original TMD artwork would successfully re-scale from 4mm to 2mm as some of the parts on the TMD/SSM are close to the limits of what can be successfully etched.

There is a scaled down version of the etch TMD/SSM etch in circulation from a few years back, commissioned, I think, by Patrick O'Sullivan author of the Farranfore to Valencia Harbour books.

I've been kindly gifted three of the etches by other 2mm Association members one of which I've partially built ( I seem to have become the custodian of Irish railway etches for 2mm finescale).

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

Alphagraphix do a J18/19 in 7mm scale,

Although it doesn't appear to be in their catalogue? I have contemplated approaching them to see if these could be reduced to 2mm but 7-2mm might be a stretch to far to result in anything buildable.

I've always viewed any scaled down etch (or print) as an aid to scratch building rather than a full blown kit, the basic structure should be usable (although might require a few tweaks) anything else is a bonus. That said Mayner's MGWR horse box and meat vans went together well.

[Horsetan]

On 30/8/2024 at 9:48 AM, Angus said:

...I've always viewed any scaled down etch (or print) as an aid to scratch building rather than a full blown kit, the basic structure should be usable (although might require a few tweaks) anything else is a bonus....

It has been said in the past that reduction in scale may also reduce any errors....

[David Holman]

 Ace modeller Gordon Gravett learned CAD during his creation of the epic Reseau Breton layout, Pempoul, reasoning that to cut down on the amount of scratchbuilding required, commissioning his own bespoke kits would be a time saver. Everything from locos and wagons through to stuff like fencing and other scenic items got drawn out and sent off to the etchers.

 Never asked him about the costs, but know he has found it worthwhile, because he continues to work this way. Those who produce multiple kits for sale, obviously want some remuneration for their efforts - an quite right too, because the creation of the CAD file takes a lot of time.

The fact that a CAD file (or even something hand drawn) can be resized is a tempting idea for the few of us who would welcome the option of reducing the amount of metal fabrication required for a model. Shame therefore that there is no 'middle path' where files could be purchased by individuals to commission their own etches - though issues about copyright or even the unscrupulous pirating drawings to producing their own ranges are obvious. 

 

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

 Ace modeller Gordon Gravett learned CAD during his creation of the epic Reseau Breton layout, Pempoul, reasoning that to cut down on the amount of scratchbuilding required, commissioning his own bespoke kits would be a time saver. Everything from locos and wagons through to stuff like fencing and other scenic items got drawn out and sent off to the etchers.

 Never asked him about the costs, but know he has found it worthwhile, because he continues to work this way. Those who produce multiple kits for sale, obviously want some remuneration for their efforts - an quite right too, because the creation of the CAD file takes a lot of time.

The fact that a CAD file (or even something hand drawn) can be resized is a tempting idea for the few of us who would welcome the option of reducing the amount of metal fabrication required for a model. Shame therefore that there is no 'middle path' where files could be purchased by individuals to commission their own etches - though issues about copyright or even the unscrupulous pirating drawings to producing their own ranges are obvious. 

 

These days I tend to build models for my own use using CAD work and a producttion process like etching, laser cutting or 3D printing, my hands are not as steady as they once were.

PPD are basically geared up to produce one off/small orders with a 4-6 week turn round basically looking at  approx £28.00 tooling and £12.00 production cost for a 290X135mm sheet of 0.4mm brass, there is quite a learning curve in volved in preparing artwork /CAD work) for an etched model inparticular allowing for the impact of the etch process and material characteristics in designing a model. 

Re-sizing the MGWR vans to 2mm for Angus was relatively straightforward basically reducing the artwork and metal thickness by 50% though I think it was necessary to carry out some re-design work to the chassis.  

I would be reluctant to 'blow up" one of my existing 4mm models to a larger scale without first reviewing the esting CAD work and building a test etch.

 

[jhb171achill]

This one’s a big ask. 

If Allen needs a minimum of six kits, I’d go for two ex-MGWR “D-bogies” (D16 - Achill Bogie).

That would leave him with four to sell. Plus, neither my eyesight nor slightly arthritic fingers are conducive to kit-making.

So, if four buyers and a kit maker can be assembled, let’s talk?

[Horsetan]

7 hours ago, David Holman said:

 .... Shame therefore that there is no 'middle path' where files could be purchased by individuals to commission their own etches - though issues about copyright or even the unscrupulous pirating drawings to producing their own ranges are obvious. 

In the years before CAD became a thing, Kemilway used to pursue anyone who pirated / plagiarised anything from their range. I seem to remember they took someone to Court for copying their etched footbridge kit.

Not that this had any effect on the late Dave King, who ran Crownline and later PDK. He happily used most of Kemilway's Bulleid Light Pacific chassis design in his own kit for the same engine. PDK still uses the Kemilway twin-cradle compensation feature in many of their kits today. I don't think they ever paid a penny in licensing fees to Kemilway!

[Angus]

17 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

This one’s a big ask. 

If Allen needs a minimum of six kits, I’d go for two ex-MGWR “D-bogies” (D16 - Achill Bogie).

That would leave him with four to sell. Plus, neither my eyesight nor slightly arthritic fingers are conducive to kit-making.

So, if four buyers and a kit maker can be assembled, let’s talk?

Happy to take one of those (albeit in 2mm) so that would leave 3.

[GSR 800]

I'd take a J18/19, a D16 Achill Bogie and a J26 in 4mm

I'd take a J5 too

Edited September 18 by GSR 800

[Horsetan]

10 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

I'd take a J18/19, a D16 Achill Bogie and a J26 in 4mm

I'd take a J5 too

The J26 bare etch would be an Alphagrafix thing as they already do the 7mm kit, rather than Worsley Works.

[GSR 800]

4 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

The J26 bare etch would be an Alphagrafix thing as they already do the 7mm kit, rather than Worsley Works.

Aye, as would the J19 I'm sure.

[jhb171achill]

14 hours ago, Angus said:

Happy to take one of those (albeit in 2mm) so that would leave 3.

If anyone else weighs in and we get a tentative six, I will approach Allen and see what the craic is. I wonder what wheels / motor etc would be involved.....

I think if I was starting all over again, I'd forget about diesels and just model an accurate part of the Achill loine, and get all six D16s, 530-5!

Edited September 18 by jhb171achill

[Angus]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If anyone else weighs in and we get a tentative six, I will approach Allen and see what the craic is. I wonder what wheels / motor etc would be involved.....

I think if I was starting all over again, I'd forget about diesels and just model an accurate part of the Achill loine, and get all six D16s, 530-5!

I'd be happy to take a couple if it gets this over the line. 

 

[Andy Cundick]

I'll be up for one as well Andy

[jhb171achill]

We seem to have a “quorum”; I will contact Allen and report back here when I get an answer.

[Horsetan]

On 22/9/2024 at 11:50 AM, jhb171achill said:

We seem to have a “quorum”; I will contact Allen and report back here when I get an answer.

Any news?

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Any news?

No answer yet, I’ll try again.

[jhb171achill]

I’ll investigate 3D prints too.

[Horsetan]

On 18/9/2024 at 10:30 PM, jhb171achill said:

.....I think if I was starting all over again, I'd forget about diesels and just model an accurate part of the Achill loine, and get all six D16s, 530-5!

Difficult choice of locations, though:

Westport: most operationally interesting with a junction to the Quay Line plus the "main" route over Altamont Street bridge

Newport: fairly cramped site, plus the challenge of the Seven Arches viaduct and two small connecting bridges either side, and St. Patrick's above the station. 

Mulrany: high up on the hillside, with the possible need to replicate the Great Southern Hotel on the adjacent site below

Achill Sound: needs space for the sea around it, I'd have thought....

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Difficult choice of locations, though:

Westport: most operationally interesting with a junction to the Quay Line plus the "main" route over Altamont Street bridge

Newport: fairly cramped site, plus the challenge of the Seven Arches viaduct and two small connecting bridges either side, and St. Patrick's above the station. 

Mulrany: high up on the hillside, with the possible need to replicate the Great Southern Hotel on the adjacent site below

Achill Sound: needs space for the sea around it, I'd have thought....

Achill station and yard would take up a massive space in its own right. Hard to imagine why it was built so large; I guess the land was effectively free and someone was hoping for an upsurge in traffic?

[Horsetan]

4 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Achill station and yard would take up a massive space in its own right. Hard to imagine why it was built so large; I guess the land was effectively free and someone was hoping for an upsurge in traffic?

I'll have to read the book again to be sure, but I think the original premise was:

- to bring tourism to Achill;

- to develop Achill Sound as a port - especially for cross-Atlantic traffic; and

- encourage expansion of fishing, with the daily catch going onwards by rail.

Highly ambitious in those early days of hope (and not a little fantasy, as things turned out)