"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

I had contacted Railtec several times in the past with specific enquiries - no answer. Now I know why!!

To be fair, in the past (a few years back) I have had a couple of custom items done by Steve at Railtec, and they were excellent quality. It took a long time and a lot of prodding to get them done though. I do still ask for a project like this, but rarely get a response at all now. I think he's just too busy with the main range and more mainstream products, and I can understand that those are his priorities.

Although using an older technology, John at Precision Decals does produce excellent custom work with great service. There is a fair range of ink colours but something like EdN is hard to achieve.

 

[leslie10646]

12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I had contacted Railtec several times in the past with specific enquiries - no answer. Now I know why!!

Yes, Jon, I'm afraid that Steve at Railtec has his own agenda. That said, before he became famous he did several sets for me and has done reruns even ten years later, so credit where it's due?

As a result, some Provincial Wagons have Des Sullivan's transfers - especially the double beets  - Des did me a customised set from his standard offering. @Galteemore put me in touch with Endon Valley Custom Decals whose decals / transfers were used on my open wagons.

Edited February 1 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

I’d be looking for GSR crests and coach door numerals at some stage…..

[Galteemore]

26 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I’d be looking for GSR crests and coach door numerals at some stage…..

Prob get away with GW crests in 4mm. Used on a WW GSR Drewry a few years ago 

Edited February 1 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

Saw that - and even Cyril Fry used LNWR crests on some of his models, and hand-painted GSR crests on others!

I have an original one mounted on a board with actual GSR coach paint, so I could have that photographed and copied if necessary....

[Mol_PMB]

29 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Saw that - and even Cyril Fry used LNWR crests on some of his models, and hand-painted GSR crests on others!

I have an original one mounted on a board with actual GSR coach paint, so I could have that photographed and copied if necessary....

That GSR crest is seriously complex and multicoloured. I haven't even mastered the snail yet...

 

On other matters, I have made a start at kitbashing the GCR horsebox into a WLWR version.

Here is the main body etch with a few scribe marks on it. It's too long, with the extra length in a storage compartment at one end.

I have cut off the storage compartment sides entirely, and shortened the floor to the correct length each end. I have also enlarged the rectangles in the floor to cope with the revised gauge and wheelbase. 

The place where the storage compartment was will be replaced with a short section of planking cut from the ends - one is seen positioned here:

This is the part of the end which I am using to complete the modified sides. I will have new ends in the custom etch, as the planking ran in the opposite direction on the WLWR horseboxes.

At the moment this still feels a lot like vandalism but hopefully it will come back together again and look good with the detail overlays added.

Ernie's photo here shows my prototype, 1025. There's another excellent photo of one of these in Sprinks's book on the SLNCR, page 69.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

That's an excellent adaptation so far, well done! Looking forward to seeing progress.

One thing I've noticed is that British horseboxes of many edsigns, possibly most, have doors to the groom's compartment that are structured and panelled like passenger coach doors, while irish ones are a great deal more basic, and almost wagon-like in design. This can be seen in the photo above versus the etch. See the windows and vents, though this etch you've chosen is as close as you'd get it. In particular, (English) Midland Railway ones show this tendency and some even have coach-like curved in ends, thus rendering them entirely unsuitable for Irish conversion.

At least you won't have trouble with snails and roundels on omne of these, unless you go for 1945-55 livery. When initially dark green, they seem to have had snails, but once repainted lighter green, no snails, just lining. After 1963, and repainted into grey never appear to have carried either a snail (initially) nor a "roundel" at all, so only a number is needed.

In GSR times they were plain dark maroon with black roofs. No GSR crest, but shaded "coach-type" lettering "G  S". 

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That's an excellent adaptation so far, well done! Looking forward to seeing progress.

One thing I've noticed is that British horseboxes of many edsigns, possibly most, have doors to the groom's compartment that are structured and panelled like passenger coach doors, while irish ones are a great deal more basic, and almost wagon-like in design. This can be seen in the photo above versus the etch. See the windows and vents, though this etch you've chosen is as close as you'd get it. In particular, (English) Midland Railway ones show this tendency and some even have coach-like curved in ends, thus rendering them entirely unsuitable for Irish conversion.

At least you won't have trouble with snails and roundels on omne of these, unless you go for 1945-55 livery. When initially dark green, they seem to have had snails, but once repainted lighter green, no snails, just lining. After 1963, and repainted into grey never appear to have carried either a snail (initially) nor a "roundel" at all, so only a number is needed.

In GSR times they were plain dark maroon with black roofs. No GSR crest, but shaded "coach-type" lettering "G  S". 

Many thanks! I've added some plank scribing to the lower part of the doors and I have plans to add some more brass strips or wire to conceal the remainder of the carriage-like panelling above the doors.

I've now got the new, shorter end pieces soldered in place, replacing the old storage compartment doors:

Other additions I need to make are the diagonal braces in the upper side doors - these appear to have been a later addition in GSR ownership as they're not on the diagram nor on the SLNCR (ex-WLWR) vehicle. Also I'll need to add the blocks on the drop-down doors which support them in the horizontal position.

The various overlays for hinges, brackets and bracing can be used as supplied in the kit, but rearranged slightly to be more like the WLWR vehicle. 

It won't be 100% but I think it will end up pretty close and be reasonably convincing. 

Livery - well it could be light green, or it could be tatty dark green with snail. My prototype 1025 survived until 1964 by which time it would probably have been light green, but my latest photos of this type date from the early 1950s when they were dark green with snail. I haven't decided yet.

[Mol_PMB]

As a postscript to the above, the Brassmasters GCR horsebox kit was the only GB horsebox model I could find that was close enough to any Irish prototype to be worth modifying. Largely owing to its wagon-type styling (as mentioned by JHB) and its relatively small size. 

It could also be built unmodified and wouldn't look out of place in an Irish train, unlike many of the other GB horseboxes.

Here's another photo of the real thing (but another member of the class with slightly different details) and a view of the completed model from the Brassmasters website:

[leslie10646]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I’d be looking for GSR crests and coach door numerals at some stage…..

I'll PM you - I know a man, as someone else on this forum would say .........

[Mol_PMB]

To illustrate the service from John at Precision Decals, after my enquiry yesterday he printed these last night and is posting them to me this morning!

It will be interesting to see what these look like when applied to a green background. 

I think this pretty much exhausts all the colour options with the Alps printer so hopefully one of these will meet with approval! 

 

[jhb171achill]

“”Spot” green’s the one!

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, jhb171achill said:

“”Spot” green’s the one!

I think that looks promising too. Hopefully it will still look right when applied to a green background.

[Mol_PMB]

Two deliveries today - the trial transfers and a box of GNR van kits from Leslie!

I've been thinking for a while that I'd like a long weekend break in Ireland again some time soon, and was wondering where and when to go, in the absence of any announced railtours. I was considering another trip to my preferred South-West corner of the country. Happily, Tailte Tours have just answered that for me with an opportunity to visit some places I've read about many times but never seen. 

[Galteemore]

48 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Two deliveries today - the trial transfers and a box of GNR van kits from Leslie!

I've been thinking for a while that I'd like a long weekend break in Ireland again some time soon, and was wondering where and when to go, in the absence of any announced railtours. I was considering another trip to my preferred South-West corner of the country. Happily, Tailte Tours have just answered that for me with an opportunity to visit some places I've read about many times but never seen. 

Fab Paul. Any chance they might be scalable to 7mm, also door class nos etc? 

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Fab Paul. Any chance they might be scalable to 7mm, also door class nos etc? 

Yes, scaling them and adding door class numbers should be simple. In fact the trial ones are closer to 7mm scale already. 

I still need to apply them to a green painted panel and then choose the best colour option. 

[Mol_PMB]

Right, it's time to inspect the latest avian molluscs.

It's worth remembering that these look completely different on a green background compared to a white background. I'm presenting them on green because they are mostly going to go on green carriages or locos, and most of the prototype photos we have are also on a green background.

 

The combinations are getting complicated to explain. The image below shows the first trials bottom left, and the latest trials on the right. In each case there's a Railtec snail (smaller) for comparison.

The Precision Decals are printed in layers. In this case, they are:

1.  White base layer. This ensures the transfer colour is the same regardless of the underlying paint.

2. Green layer. This can be chosen from: 'Green' (dark), 'Process Green' (bluish), 'Spot Green' (not as dark as green), or 'ER Lime' (pale yellowish).

3. Lightening layer. This can be chosen from: 'Opaque White' (moderately dense white layer), or 'ER Pastel White' (just gives a slight lightening of the colour).

4. Extra lightening layers. Repeats of 'ER Pastel White'.

Each layer costs money, and more layers have more risk of poor adhesion of the ink, or potential misalignments. Some combinations of ink layers don't work reliably and give a patchy result. So there are tradeoffs. 

John printed the colours I asked for, but he also printed some extra options with different shades of green and more lightening layers of 'ER Pastel White'. Unfortunately, on some of these extras there was a misalignment error part-way through printing. Because these were bonus free extras, John didn't reprint them but he did send them. So it gives us more options to consider but some of them are misaligned. To get a true impression of the colour of those we need to look at the areas where the green and the white overlay, and ignore the other areas.

Considering first the examples overlaid with Opaque White, we have the following:

• PG+OW - far bottom left, a very pale turquoise, not ideal
• Green+OW - top middle, this comes out rather greyish, not ideal.
• ER Lime +OW top right - I think this is the best of the OW overlays but perhaps a bit pale.
• Sadly the Spot Green +OW option seems to have been missed out (to be fair, I forgot to specify it and John didn't add it)

Looking now at the examples overlaid with ER Pastel White, we have the following:

• Green + ERPW - middle left, this I think is too similar to the underlying green paint
• Process Green + ERPW - middle, too turquoise
• Spot Green + ERPW - just right of middle, OK but perhaps still too similar to the underlying green paint
• ER Lime + ERPW - middle right, I think this is too bright and yellow

The far bottom row is the ones overlaid with ER Pastel White twice; unfortunately these are misaligned so it's a bit harder to judge the colours. Generally they are a paler version of the middle row.

• Green + 2xERPW - bottom left, this is heading towards grey again (like Green+OW).
• Process Green + 2xERPW - bottom middle, still turquoise
• Spot Green + 2xERPW - bottom just right of middle, this looks OK but a maybe bit dark still?
• ER Lime + 2xERPW - middle right, this looks OK and perhaps the closest to the Railtec colour?

Then there are a couple of extras overlaid with ER Pastel White three times which I have put over to the right hand side - I trimmed these before applying to try and remove some of the distracting misaligned bits:

• Spot Green + 3xERPW - just right of middle, this looks quite good to me, the lightness is good but it's going a bit greyish.
• ER Lime + 3xERPW - middle right, this looks quite good to me, but is still a bit yellow and perhaps getting too pale.

 

I would welcome other people's thoughts as everyone has slightly different colour vision. 

My gut feel is that the 'Green' goes too grey when lightened, and the 'Process Green' goes too blue.

That leaves us with the 'Spot Green' or the 'ER Lime'. These two colours are quite different - ER Lime is yellowish, while 'Spot Green' is more towards the blue corner.

Having picked one of these, how much paler do we make it with lightening layers?

 

Here's JHB's avatar for reference, please note this is on a CIE dark green background whereas my samples are on my best impression of CIE light green.

And from Ernie's albums on Flickr, a fine selection on light green carriages and locos:

 

I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck with the Black and Tan era...

[Mol_PMB]

A bit of computer manipulation to give a better impression of what I think are the more promising options:

And very crudely, what they might look like on a loco tender grey background:

Or on a 'tin van':

Edited February 5 by Mol_PMB
second and third images added

[Mol_PMB]

It's hard to find colour photos of grey locos with reasonably clean snails on the tender. Again from Ernie:

And on tin vans, the EdN numbers had almost no contrast:

 

[Colonel]

Hmmm...

On the whole, coaches got washed regularly and stayed fairly clean, while locos soon acquired at least a patina of dust and dirt. So unless a loco is modelled ex works, for me, it needs at least some weathering and looks all the better for it, because it shows it is working for its living. Decals, lettering etc therefore don't need to be 100% accurate in terms of colour, so beware overthinking?

 Coaches maybe do need to be a bit more accurate, but then the effects of weather and daylight, plus the quality of the film processing of the time, all create confusion and the same goes for how we choose to light our models, of course.

 How big is a flying snail on a coach in 4mm scale? 5mm max? Add in the two foot or even one foot rule and would say accuracy and sharpness of the lettering is more important than nuances of shade.

 I use 4mm scale Midland Railway crest transfers on my 7mm scale Donegal stock and they provide a perfectly decent impression - to me, anyway and (so far!) haven't had any complaints.

 This probably isn't helping!

 

[Mol_PMB]

David, you make some very good points.

I've been thinking about the different items I want to print in EdN, for example here's the current draft of my artwork:

There are several elements here for different types of vehicle: 

• At the top, and with an outline, are a selection of transfer snails and numbers for A11 (I plan to redecorate my IRM A42 as A11). The height of the largest snail (top right, the size for loco tenders and some bogie carriages) is just less than 5mm.
• In the middle is lots of fine stuff for carriage and wagon numbers and lettering.
• On the right a selection of stencilled snails. These are for wagons, for example see the image below.
• At the bottom, scale 2" wide lining which is used as a waist line on many green locos and carriages. 

Of course, I don't necessarily have to do all of these in the same shade (though it adds cost to use different shades on the same sheet), and plenty of the photos in earlier posts show that the painted lining often faded to a different colour from the transfers (snails, class digits, numbers etc). 

I think it's important to get the lining colour plausible as it's a larger element of the livery on carriages. 

The fine numbers and lettering are probably fine enough that the exact shade won't be too obvious - they need to be 'not white' and have some element of green, but it would take a very close look to tell the difference. My existing 6-wheel coach has the number in white and you can hardly tell.

Actually, none of the carriages I'm currently planning to build had the snail transfer, so arguably it's less important to get it right. For snails and class digits I can also use Railtec if that's the best option.

 

But A11 needs numbers, snails and lining. The best colour photo of A11 in my chosen livery is on the back cover of Irish Traction in Colour' (Huntriss)

Ernie's view of A45 also in clean condition is a good reference too:

 

I forgot to mention wagons in the previous post and here's a colour view of an EdN stencilled snail on a goods van. The number is in EdN too. Like the EdN on tin vans, there is little contrast between the two colours. Again, thanks to Ernie.

 

Anyway, I still can't decide!

[Flying Snail]

Its a tricky one to judge - going by the various photos I was drawn to the lime 2 and  3 versions, but that doesn't really sit right with JHB's avatar

 

No sign of the poor oul yella snail there anyhow  

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Its a tricky one to judge - going by the various photos I was drawn to the lime 2 and  3 versions, but that doesn't really sit right with JHB's avatar

 

No sign of the poor oul yella snail there anyhow  

Thanks - I agree. The lime 2 is closest to the Railtec transfer and some of the photos, but JHB's avatar is less yellowish.

This thread has some great closeups of the older CIE dark green livery including broad EdN lining and snails.

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/6628-cie-green-paint/#comment-108574

All are a more bluish shade, but notably the snail doesn't match the lining, being a more intense green. 

If I change the background colour to something closer to CIE dark green, then the lime 2 still looks good for the snail, but the lining would be better in something paler and less yellowish.

Sorry about the lack of a yellow snail - give me a chance to master the EdN ones first!

[Mol_PMB]

I spent yesterday in front of the computer finishing off artwork for transfers and etches. Not very exciting.

Anyway, the decals are now being printed and will be in the post tomorrow, and I expect to get a price for the new etch tomorrow too.

That etch is for alternative sides for the SSM 6-wheel coach kits - a full brake and a sleeping car, plus the new ends for the horsebox kit, and a few scenic odds and sods to fill the remaining space.

So today, I've avoided staring at the screen all day and I've had the soldering iron out instead.

I've still got two SSM 6-wheel GSWR all-third coach kits in the stash, and today I've built the underframe and 'bogies' of the kit I bought recently from @Georgeconna. This will become the underframe for the full brake. Having studied a lot of photos it is apparent that most of these full brakes had brake blocks on all wheelsets, and the arrangement of vacuum cylinders and gas tanks was different from the passenger coaches. So I'm implementing those changes, though I haven't yet installed the gas tank. 

While I wait for the etches to be made, I plan to assemble the other similar underframe which will go under the sleeping car. Again this will require a few modifications to suit the prototype.

 

[jhb171achill]

On 6/2/2026 at 9:36 AM, Mol_PMB said:

 

Sorry about the lack of a yellow snail - give me a chance to master the EdN ones first!

No need to worry there - apart from grey 121s on delivery, not a single thing on rails ever had a yellow flying snail!

Edited February 8 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

No need to worry there - apart from grey 121s on delivery, not a single thing on rails ever had a yellow flying snail!

Being contrary, I did wonder if there was an opportunity for a bus on a bogie flat wagon, but it seems that even the yellow and grey buses didn't have yellow snails - they had grey snails on a yellow background:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257009599

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257000213

Edited February 8 by Mol_PMB
third pic

[Mol_PMB]

Incidentally, was the 121 class grey/yelow livery influenced by this bus livery? When transatlantic flights between Ireland and the USA were introduced in 1958, CIE strongly marketed Irish coach tour holidays to the Americans - their only vision of CIE livery at the time might well have been the poster above.  

[Flying Snail]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

No need to worry there 

  ... JHB is, of course, absolutely right - and Murphy Models did a very fine job of the only model that would need a yellow snail. 

 

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, was the 121 class grey/yelow livery influenced by this bus livery? When transatlantic flights between Ireland and the USA were introduced in 1958, CIE strongly marketed Irish coach tour holidays to the Americans - their only vision of CIE livery at the time might well have been the poster above.  

The 1950s touring buses really pop out ... wouldn't they make a great model for a 1950s layout?

They were Leyland Royal Tigers, and unsurprisingly got the knick name 'Banana Boats' https://www.nationaltransportmuseum.org/b009.html

Edited February 8 by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

 

 

The 1950s touring buses really pop out ... wouldn't they make a great model?

They were Leyland Royal Tigers, and unsurprisingly got the knick name 'Banana Boats' https://www.nationaltransportmuseum.org/b009.html

Indeed. I’d buy one. But I suspect they would be very niche. 
Here’s another pic from a 1955 CIE promotional flyer:

https://ebay.us/m/ysoAOB

Imagine a Metrovick or Sulzer loco in this livery! 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, was the 121 class grey/yelow livery influenced by this bus livery? When transatlantic flights between Ireland and the USA were introduced in 1958, CIE strongly marketed Irish coach tour holidays to the Americans - their only vision of CIE livery at the time might well have been the poster above.  

It is possible. However, another possibility is that GM had produced other locos for American lines about the same time as the 121ss were being built, so it is possible that some influence came from those quarters; if so, whether it was suggested by La Grange or Illinois will never be known.

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Being contrary, I did wonder if there was an opportunity for a bus on a bogie flat wagon, but it seems that even the yellow and grey buses didn't have yellow snails - they had grey snails on a yellow background:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257009599

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257000213

 

Looking at those two IRRS pics of Paddy Flanagan's, I was unaware any of the £P£ class buses got the yellow and grey livery. And lo and behold - while the U class depicted in the posters has a grey "snail" (of course), that on the "P" appears to be a standard eau-de-nil one across the radiator cover!

But - it absolutely does my head in to see yellow "snails" on model steam engine tenders - it's like putting a bright red "double arrow" on a BR diesel on 1970s rail blue!

[Westcorkrailway]

The yellow and grey was just the paint GM outcropped things during those years. CIE probably just went along with it, the RPSI were considering traveling to the states to test the colours on another GM loco from around the same time for the colours. I’ve seen a few examples…

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

5 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The yellow and grey was just the paint GM outcropped things during those years. CIE probably just went along with it, the RPSI were considering traveling to the states to test the colours on another GM loco from around the same time for the colours. I’ve seen a few examples…

 

 

 

GM EMD had a ‘styling group’ that developed paint schemes for their locos, and many of the most famous American diesel liveries were actually created by EMD. 
I have not seen examples of the use of a ‘standard yellow and grey’ scheme and would be interested to see some other examples.
There were some US railroads that adopted yellow and grey liveries, the Louisville & Nashville was one. 

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

GM EMD had a ‘styling group’ that developed paint schemes for their locos, and many of the most famous American diesel liveries were actually created by EMD. 
I have not seen examples of the use of a ‘standard yellow and grey’ scheme and would be interested to see some other examples.
There were some US railroads that adopted yellow and grey liveries, the Louisville & Nashville was one. 

I saw a picture online, and it wasn't that long ago - of a newly-built loco for some American railway (or POSSIBLY South American) in a yellow and grey colour scheme about 1960-ish. More grey than yllow, ad arranged differently. If I come across it again I'll post it.

[Ironroad]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

GM EMD had a ‘styling group’ that developed paint schemes for their locos, and many of the most famous American diesel liveries were actually created by EMD. 
I have not seen examples of the use of a ‘standard yellow and grey’ scheme and would be interested to see some other examples.
There were some US railroads that adopted yellow and grey liveries, the Louisville & Nashville was one. 

Not sure if this fits;

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/legacy-locomotives/predecessor-line-rolling-stock-and-legacy-locomotives/clinchfield-800-legacy-locomotive/?mobileFormat=false

[Mol_PMB]

33 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Not sure if this fits;

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/legacy-locomotives/predecessor-line-rolling-stock-and-legacy-locomotives/clinchfield-800-legacy-locomotive/?mobileFormat=false

 

The Clinchfield was a subsidiary of the Louisville & Nashville which I mentioned previously. It's the same livery. Here it is on a roadswitcher:

Or on something more 121-shaped:

 

(pics linked from Flickr, copyright as shown)