Private Owner Irish Wagons

[DJ Dangerous]

This following post from @leslie10646 got me thinking about private owner wagons that ran in Ireland:

 

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

Lots more Irish stuff on eBay including several of my wagons at amusing prices.

Put "Irish Wagon" into the search! 

One example was

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285295734748?_skw=irish+wagon&itmmeta=01JSP8B5W9490X4NFS5BA1SHE2&hash=item426cf36fdc:g:An0AAOSwnm5kalQN&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA8FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1fapxH5NJxkJMYPMtalU66hoHlA%2F36oxhAYMpc8vK8aTnfN7b%2FbfwxBfIVDLmmzMH3K4XXbL%2FHvTYQpMesp7fPuPh9fkDEb87V3115MRF2xvbXThhKv1FS5pNOt3zg6Zj05NoeRAXIQKmw%2B7PJVLJDQIyrBY47zbWXP6XJLwxofQCIuVacbknZkESQieLXTFdVbJ5zcHuI3JMGglxK8dDM9woW%2BYjo4NQYk7W07tvpUFia3%2FXR98B7PSEniCi0rTifYmpm4elr57uPfrtCx3LFPjsnAWwAlCb0DwqaDFnTFCw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6jerMjNZQ

I sold a couple of second hand ones of these at Bangor for a tenner each ......

 

I felt that the topic deserved it's own thread.

So, I did a little digging and assembled just a few of the many posts on the topic that are scattered throughout the forum.

 

On 12/1/2014 at 12:25 AM, jhb171achill said:

Re banana vans, very very few Irish wagons were ever in private owner liveries, unlike UK; and when repainting, remember to do the chassis too.brown wagons had, and have, brown chassis and (until very recently in the case of container flats only) brown bogies, grey wagons had grey chassis. The ubiquitous application of black as a chassis colour for wagons is a GB / BR thing, not UTA, NIR, or CIE.

 

On 28/11/2014 at 8:16 PM, Mayner said:

New Irish Lines Vol 2. No 6 2001 http://newirishlines.org/archive-2/ includes an article by Chris Aspinwall & Alan O'Rourke on Irish private owner tank wagons the article includes photos and details of both Dublin & Belfast registered tank wagons but breaks off before the introduction of more modern wagons by Caltex and ESSO in the 1960s.

 

On 2/6/2015 at 10:19 PM, jhb171achill said:

Private owner wagons were exceptionally rare in Ireland. Unless I'm mistaken, the Kilkenny and Murphy ones are fictitious; I've never seen a photo of eitherf. The East Downshire Company had coal trucks on the Belfast and Co Down Railway, but there weren't many others. Instead, the railways would build wagons for private traffic, but they would almost always be in railway company livery.

 

The biggest thing on model Irish wagons to be aware of, probably, is that bought wagons all seem, without exception, to have black chassis as if they were passenger vehicles. Very few Irish wagons had black chassis (NCC "brown vans" were one exception, as they generally ran in passenger trains).

 

Prior to 1925, body (and matching chassis) colours varied from a very dark grey (almost black) as on the GSWR, to various shades of grey. Grey was universal among all companies 1925 - mid 1950s. At that stage, the GNR used brown on some stock, though most was grey; the UTA used brown on some in the 60s, and CIE started using brown in the 70s. Brown became the universal CIE colour after the elimination of loose-coupled goods stock in 1975 after cattle traffic ended.

 

In the era when a 121 would have run (60's - 2010's) four wheeled wagons would have been all grey, and no private owner wagons like Murphy or Kilkenny existed at all (so just use CIE plain grey for coal traffic!). As wooden four wheel opens were phased out in the late 60s, very few ever wore brown; they were taken over by Bullied steel wagons instead. These had unpainted steel bodies - a throwback to the unpainted silver "livery" of the 50s. Initially, chassis were the same, though in the 80s a few had brown chassis. Once doubled in height, at the end of the beet era, these were all brown.

 

On 3/1/2017 at 3:30 PM, jhb171achill said:

 

No, they were fully GNR owned, though yes, "de facto" used only for Guinness traffic as far as is known.

 

When modelling the past, we see numerous British Hornby or Bachmann models of private owner wagons. If modelling Irish prototypes, it must be remembered if accuracy is wished for, that private owner wagons in Ireland were very rare indeed, and many extremely short lived; also, they tended to operate over one specific route, not in general goods trains all over the place. Example: Downshire wagons - Dundrum (Co Down) to Belfast only. You wouldn't get one of these, for example, in Enniskillen, Mullingar or West Cork, and there would be no Guinness grain vans on the NCC!

 

On 8/4/2018 at 7:08 AM, Mayner said:

Beautiful drawing very old with handbrake on one side only and wooden centered wheels.  The requirement for a handbrake on either side most likely came in after 1900.

The East Downshire Steam Shipping Company operated out of Dundrum (Co Down!) and had a fleet of private owner wagons that operated on the County Down. The wagons apparently ended their days in internal use at Dundalk Port after the County Down Main line closed.

Provincial Wagons once produced an East Downshire coal wagon http://www.provincialwagons.com/3.html

I have a large scale drawing of the Irish "standard" wooden bodied open wagon used by the Great Northern & the Southern Companies from about 1916 onwards, if I find it I will scan it!!

 

On 5/4/2019 at 3:17 AM, popeye said:

We have also some private owner wagons like Murphy Bros, Waterford and Milligen.

plus a couple of pic's from Dublin docks.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:01 by DJ Dangerous

[popeye]

Here's 2 more pic's of my weathered PO wagons.

I must dig out my Murphy Bros wagons and get some dirt on them.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Lovely pics, @popeye!

So there were RTR models of the Murphy Brothers opens, the John Milligen opens, and the East Downshire Steamship opens.

Any others?

It seems from @jhb171achill's posts above that private owner wagons were gone before the 121's entered service?

[popeye]

I think Bachmann done the Murphy Bros wagons in a set of 3 in a box.

[DJ Dangerous]

Just now, popeye said:

I think Bachmann done the Murphy Bros wagons in a set of 3 in a box.

Nearly sure that they did two different packs of the Murphy Brothers opens; a Bachmann three pack, and a Bachmann Coal Traders three pack.

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Nearly sure that they did two different packs of the Murphy Brothers opens; a Bachmann three pack, and a Bachmann Coal Traders three pack.

Yes, I have one of each - different numbers.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

It seems from @jhb171achill's posts above that private owner wagons were gone before the 121's entered service?

Yes - the old traditional wooden-bodied open wagons, very few as they were in the first place, were very long gone.

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Broithe said:

Yes, I have one of each - different numbers.

So six running numbers in total?

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes - the old traditional wooden-bodied open wagons, very few as they were in the first place, were very long gone.

What sort of era would they have vanished?

From an RTR perspective, what would have handled them?

NCC Jinty?

Or a Mogul?

Everybody loves a @MOGUL!

[Galteemore]

7 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So six running numbers in total?

What sort of era would they have vanished?

From an RTR perspective, what would have handled them?

NCC Jinty?

Or a Mogul?

Everybody loves a @MOGUL!

All Murphy ones gone by 1930s I think. Nothing RTR would have hauled them 

[Broithe]

13 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So six running numbers in total?

Yes, my paper records are 220 miles away, but the wagons are probably here, if I can find them.

[jhb171achill]

PO wagons tended to be confined to one specific route, so they’re not really flexible.

I’m unaware of any on the NCC. I think the Courtaulds ones were UTA-owned, not PO.

This rules out Jeeps, Moguls or the two Jintys in terms of hauling anything PO.

The BCDR had the Dundrum PO coal wagons. Some of these ended up on the DNGR, but of course by that stage they were no longer owned by the East Downshire company.

In terms of era, to such extent we had PO wagons, you’re really looking at the 1900-20 period mostly. They’re not really a “modern” thing.

They give colour, of course, to a model goods train. But prototypically, until the 1970s, any sort of goods stock which wasn’t grey was a rarity on all lines. 

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, Broithe said:

Yes, my paper records are 220 miles away, but the wagons are probably here, if I can find them.

No’s 14, 19 and 22 in my pack.

@Ironroad found no. 33 for sale individually:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204972242564
 

 

[Broithe]

 

[DJ Dangerous]

16 minutes ago, Broithe said:

 

 

LOL, just found the same post in my digging!

SO, looks like that 33 being sold individually was split from the "Coal Traders" pack.

 

On 2/3/2013 at 6:00 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

K

He did an earlier run of these back in May 2001

Marketed under the "Coal Trader" brand by Bachmann

Running numbers were 29,32, & 33

Main reason with freight is that its a tiny return per item and a huge run is needed to recoup the initial cost

 

On 5/3/2013 at 7:14 PM, Kirley said:

Went back to your post #62 (July 2012) showing the Bachmann ‘Coal Traders Classics’, did not pickup on that it was marketed as a “Bachmann model”. With only 300 issued I suppose it must now be quite rare set ?

 

Two photos attached, from @Northman's thread here.

 

And some info on the business posted by @minister_for_hardship here.

 

 

 

[Mayner]

In the post 1960s era the three largest groups of Private Owner wagons to run in Ireland would have been the ESSO Tank wagons 971-1013 imported from the UK in the late 60s, Tara Mines ore wagons 31001-31025 & NET Ammonia Tank 32001-32020  wagons  leased from Storage and Transportation Systems (STS)London

There were also a number of CIE owned Branded wagons introduced during the 70s, Burmah Oil Tank Wagons 26723-26728, Pallet Cement Wagons 28001-28172.

While IRM have released a model of the ESSO 35T tank wagon it is of the unbranded version of the wagon with modified tank mounts and hazard markings, rather that the original version introduced in the late 60s with original pattern tank mounts and raised ESSO shield and logo https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527716615/in/album-72157661623942928. For people without access to the IRRS Flickr album the ESSO Teo tank wagons were visually similar to the UK Class A tank wagon with ESSO shield and simplified markings/lettering.

IRM have already released the Tara wagons in their original blue livery witt Tara logo.

Whatever about the Ammonia and Burmah tank wagons, the Pallet Cement Wagons appear to be a significant gap in RTR wagons for the late 70s early 2000s era with the original version with Irish Cement logo and balanced doors, and later unbranded versions with balanced doors and curtain sides.

For the modeller with a main line oval layout in a restricted space the Tara Mines and Ammonia Tanks short train behind a 001 Class entirely prototypical.

Going back to the County Down a series of papers on BCDR private owner wagons was published (Des Cookham?) was published in the IRRS journal in the late 60s early 70s, apart from the East Downshire the common thread was the use of private owner wagons to transport stone to Belfast during the 19th Century, a "Dr Richie" was one of the major quarry owners. The Dublin and Blessington served a similar function transporting roadstone and sand to Dublin, interchanging with the DUTC at Terenure goods trains ran through to destinations on the electric tramway system hauled by electric loco/works tram.

 

[leslie10646]

20 hours ago, popeye said:

Here's 2 more pic's of my weathered PO wagons.

I must dig out my Murphy Bros wagons and get some dirt on them.

 

What's the use of me paying a fortune to Dapol to do the Millihgen wagon in RED, only for you to make it grey?

Of course, no one can say what the colour was exactly, but John Harcourt, of the famous coal family who took over Milligen's , told me that they were red, as, I am pretty certain, did Des Coakham. Photos of them made hen's teeth look plentiful!

As for the East Down wagons: when the railway closed, some of them were bought by a Dundalk coal merchant, LOCKINGTON. Hence them being seen in Dundalk docks.

Whether Lockingtons dolled up wagons with their own livery has not come to light - but if someone can produce a photo, I'll have it out as a RTR wagon before you can blink. There ARE Lockington wagons on the MRSI's "Dundalk Works" layout, but the Mastermind behind the dioramas on the layout, (Please someone remind of his name and I'll edit this!) told me that the lettering he used was made-up!

Des Coakham's article is in IRRS Journal Vol 12 pages 151 and 152. It suggests that the EDSS wagons were to be found around the docks in Dundalk -= no suggestion of them straying. He also comments that they were around until about 1963. In the article, Des has mis-spelt the company name as MilligAn, but the photographs I have clearly show "MilligEn".

Regarding @jhb171achill's comment, the Courtauld's wagons were railway owned. The famous factory served by them dates from late 1940s/early 1950s, by which time PO wagons had been phased out on BR (who were busily replacing the thousands of wrecks they inherited by the new and more reliable wagons), so the UTA would simply have used their own. When I did a model of one, it was one of the several hundred reconditioned by the UTA in the early 1960s. No sooner had they gone into service, but the UTA lost the rail contract!  

Edited 3 hours ago by leslie10646

[MOGUL]

16 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So six running numbers in total?

What sort of era would they have vanished?

From an RTR perspective, what would have handled them?

NCC Jinty?

Or a Mogul?

Everybody loves a @MOGUL!

But in the context of wagons the Mogul Zinc ore wagons were of course railway owned rather than private owner..

One of the Limerick based meat companies had some PO vans in the early 20th century, but I can’t remember if it’s shaws or Denny’s.. Will have to dig out my copy of the W&LR book for the details 

[popeye]

Is this better?

 

[Northroader]

I did do a Munster Simms tank wagon a while ago, working off a makers photo published in a HMRS journal, for the 1920s 30s era: