CIE 1950s light green - preferred commercial paint shade?

[Mol_PMB]

Fairly soon I will have some carriages to paint in CIE 1950s light green. 

I am looking for people's recommendations for a commercial enamel paint shade (e.g. Precision, Humbrol, Railmatch) that is an acceptable match for this. I'd prefer to avoid mixing something up each time. 

What looks right?

What is a good match to the IRM A42 model? Though I confess that is a bit bright to my eyes but weathering will tone it down.

I was also hoping to have some green IRM Park Royals by now, but hey-ho.

 

I appreciate that greens are notoriously hard to judge, and photos of real coaches and locos with different degrees of weathering and fading can show quite different shades even if the paint was from the same tin. 

Precision CIE green is definitely a darker shade and probably the 1940s green. 

Railmatch Malachite is about the right brightness but to my eyes is a bit too blue. Phoenix offer two different shades of SR Malachite though.

The LNER had two shades of loco green - Doncaster and Darlington - are either of those any good for CIE light green?

Below are Precision's 2 shades of malachite and 2 shades of LNER green. Of course there may be many other options.

 

 

Many thanks,

Mol

 

 

 

[Mike 84C]

Mol, you could try Revell SM364 which I used on my diesels, or Humbrol gloss No3 which is darker.Bare in mind I have weatherd the C & A classes

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Mick, that Revell colour looks good. I'll get some of that and try it.

The diesels look great - I bet a lot of work went into the B101 especially!

[Mike 84C]

 glazing the B101 tops my list of tedious modeling jobs! 

[Mol_PMB]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks Mick, that Revell colour looks good. I'll get some of that and try it.

The diesels look great - I bet a lot of work went into the B101 especially!

I keep looking at the bits for a B101 and then put them back in the box...

[Colonel]

Exact colours always a can of worms for me, especially if/when weathering is going to be added later. One rule I always stick to is to do painting under the same lighting conditions as the models will be displayed - in my case either warm or cool white LEDs, which aim to mimic the weather (sun or cloud). Look at how the lighting changed your sky on the backscene.

 Another issue is do you paint the model as brand new and weather it down, or paint it from the start in the colour you are trying to portray?

 Maybe finding a colour picture of two to work from is the best way to start, but have often wondered if there is a danger of over thinking the whole process in an effort to get absolute fidelity!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Agreed.

There's huge variation in the appearance of greens in photos, and it can't all be explained away by lighting conditons or film sensitivity, or an individual's colour perception, because there are many photos of trains where the shade of green varies between vehicles, even if nominally in the same livery. So there are other factors at play, including paint application (and undercoats), fading, weathering etc. Equally I don't necessarily want to paint all my green vehicles in exactly the same shade. But I'm keen to have a starting point to work from.

I keep coming back to these IRRS photos all taken on the same day. In the first pic, A25's paint job is only a year or two old, but it's a very different shade of green to the freshly-painted carriage behind it. I tried converting the image to monochrome and the loco is actually a slightly lighter shade than the carriage. In colour it's a much bluer tint

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569610307

Then look at two other pics of A25 on the same day, and it looks quite different in each one.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570791109

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511295386

 

At present I only have two green vehicles - an IRM A class and an H van that I painted in Railmatch SR Malachite, and then weathered. Here they are under layout lighting:

In my eyes the colour on A42 is a bit too intense, it needs to be toned down a bit. Weathering may achieve that. The H van is a bit too blue and a bit too dark, though not too bad for a work-worn finish.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570664788

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419669899

 

When you look at a train like this it seems fairly clean:

But looking closely it becomes apparent that there's actually a lot of weathering that will affect the colour's appearance:

And then it's interesting to compare the apparent shade of green on these two:

with a very similar photo in much the same place, showing two other 6-wheelers in the same livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677

I think the light green looked lighter and yellower when first applied, and then faded to a bluer shade over time. The addition of some weathering dulled it and could darken it. I'm pretty sure these carriages were all painted the same colour to start with, but the first coach has been painted more recently:

 

Anyway, I am going to do some experiments by painting up some offcuts of foam board in a variety of different greens so I can compare them.

[flange lubricator]

I think the colour your try to match is RAL 140 50 60 

There is a good link to a reference on colour here 

 

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

I think the colour your try to match is RAL 140 50 60 

There is a good link to a reference on colour here 

 

Many thanks! 

RAL 140 50 60 looks like the lighter green which is just what I'm after.

Although the linked thread implies it represents the dark green, but this must be a typo as it also suggests that RAL 140 50 60 matches RAL 150 30 30. I think the reference to RAL 150 30 30 must be the dark green.

 

If it wasn't -5 outside and not much warmer in the garage, I'd be out spraying some samples...

 

[jhb171achill]

Blue and green are notoriously fickle for their varied appearances in photos.

Colour slides do not last, as the emulsions decay at different rates. Green can adopt a bluish tint very easily - just look at grass or plant leaves in many old pictures.

Fewer and fewer of us now directly remember old colours of things, and even then people’s recall of colours varies, like our eyesight or hearing in later years, from the absolute 100% accurate to the completely incorrect.

Flange & Mol’s RAL examples shown above are spot on for newly painted vehicles.

In faded, everyday state, they looked like that pic of the two Cusack six-wheelers in Cork, which Mol posted, above.

Never, ever believe the oft-quoted urban legend that CIE had as many green colours as Joseph’s technicolour dreamcoat. That tale is incorrect and dates from a certain group of Belfast-based enthusiasts in the 1960s, who knew little of CIE!

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I have started some experiments this afternoon, using five paints in stock. I have also ordered the Revell shade recommended by Mick and will add that to the comparison when it arrives.

In each case I started with white mount board, sprayed it with a very light grey primer, and then added one fairly heavy green topcoat. 

These are shown with layout lighting only, but I've shown them against a white and a black background to see if it makes much difference. Photos with my iPhone.

Here's that RAL colour again:

The paints are as follows, all colours I had in stock in one form or another:

1    Tamiya    spray    TS-35 Park Green
2    Railmatch    spray    1632 SR Malachite Green
3    Humbrol    acrylic spray    80 Grass Green  (this was rather an old can)
4    Railmatch    jar    620 LNER Doncaster green  (This was a very old jar, and I didn't really thin it enough for the airbrush)
5    Precision    tinlet    P50 LNER Loco Green - Doncaster (also a bit old, but I did a better job of thinning and mixing it)

To my eyes (which are an imperfect judge):

#1 is too bright and garish, also a bit blue.

#2 is what I used on the H van, it's a bit bluish and a bit dark, but perhaps OK for a faded/weathered vehicle after a few years in traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51233007716

#3 is comparatively yellowish, but may be OK for a freshly painted vehicle on a sunny day: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570664788

#4 is a bit too brown and too dark

#5 looks pretty good to me, if a little dark when compared on the white background. Quite a good representation of this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52632577324

 

It's interesting how the black background makes all of them look much lighter than they did on the white background.

 

I look forward to adding the Revell paints to the comparison. I've actually ordered two variants - 364 Satin Leaf Green and 360 Satin Green.

[Colonel]

Fascinating!

[Mike 84C]

I have been a member of an American group, for a lot of years!, having an interest in the Colorado Midland which closed after WW1. But we had on going discussions about colour from every aspect. My conclusion is we will all see the same colour slightly differently so my stock will be the right colour and yours well, the jury's out! 

In Back Track vol34 No2 For feb 2020 there is an article Irish Diesel traction by David Moseley worth having for the 6 colour photos. All green and yet more shades in the melting pot! 

[jhb171achill]

On 4/1/2026 at 4:32 PM, Mol_PMB said:

I have started some experiments this afternoon, using five paints in stock. I have also ordered the Revell shade recommended by Mick and will add that to the comparison when it arrives.

In each case I started with white mount board, sprayed it with a very light grey primer, and then added one fairly heavy green topcoat. 

These are shown with layout lighting only, but I've shown them against a white and a black background to see if it makes much difference. Photos with my iPhone.

Here's that RAL colour again:

The paints are as follows, all colours I had in stock in one form or another:

1    Tamiya    spray    TS-35 Park Green
2    Railmatch    spray    1632 SR Malachite Green
3    Humbrol    acrylic spray    80 Grass Green  (this was rather an old can)
4    Railmatch    jar    620 LNER Doncaster green  (This was a very old jar, and I didn't really thin it enough for the airbrush)
5    Precision    tinlet    P50 LNER Loco Green - Doncaster (also a bit old, but I did a better job of thinning and mixing it)

To my eyes (which are an imperfect judge):

#1 is too bright and garish, also a bit blue.

#2 is what I used on the H van, it's a bit bluish and a bit dark, but perhaps OK for a faded/weathered vehicle after a few years in traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51233007716

#3 is comparatively yellowish, but may be OK for a freshly painted vehicle on a sunny day: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570664788

#4 is a bit too brown and too dark

#5 looks pretty good to me, if a little dark when compared on the white background. Quite a good representation of this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52632577324

 

It's interesting how the black background makes all of them look much lighter than they did on the white background.

 

I look forward to adding the Revell paints to the comparison. I've actually ordered two variants - 364 Satin Leaf Green and 360 Satin Green.

1 & 2 fine for slightly different weathering shades; 3, 4 & 5 way off. Excellent research!

[Colonel]

Another factor, which I've mentioned before, is that as gentlemen get older our perception of colour (and green especially), fades. We therefore need to check with a/the lady in our life about its suitabilty.

 That said, have been following the advice/orders of her good self, particularly on dress code, forever. You soon learn to know it makes sense!

Edited January 6 by Colonel

[Mol_PMB]

Sadly not an option here. 
Once I’ve got all my green samples finished I will try to coerce a female friend to give their judgement. 
 

[Andy Cundick]

There is a simple solution all of them ,as green is pretty good at fading so the shade will change with time .If you think about a train with all the the same shade of green would be fairly unlikely.Andy

[cheesy_peas]

Even with all this RAL standardisation, different batches of what is supposed to be the same colour may appear different when applied. 

[Flying Snail]

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sadly not an option here. 
Once I’ve got all my green samples finished I will try to coerce a female friend to give their judgement. 
 

I like your scientific approach! Its also good point that we may all perceive colour a little differently but I'm not sure you really need to coerce any female friends here (and I'm definitely not going to step on to the male vs female colour perception landmine, save to say I learned years ago not to have a strong opinion on what colour 'we' choose to paint the walls at home ). For me, I think you have a reasonable reference point with A42 (the lads will have done a fair bit of homework on the colour matching)  - so once you have a colour that matches it to your eyes then I think you're done. Taking into account the sheen off plastic surfaces, your eyes should be pretty consistent in how they view the greens when comparing shades to A42. 

I'd try to get to a colour that matches A42 reasonably well and then use that as my base colour - lightening it before application a little for a more sun bleached look,  or applying it as-is before going to town with dark washes if wanted to lather on a bit of grime. That approach should result in a nice bit of variation within the spectrum of CIE green

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

I like your scientific approach! Its also good point that we may all perceive colour a little differently but I'm not sure you really need to coerce any female friends here (and I'm definitely not going to step on to the male vs female colour perception landmine, save to say I learned years ago not to have a strong opinion on what colour 'we' choose to paint the walls at home ). For me, I think you have a reasonable reference point with A42 (the lads will have done a fair bit of homework on the colour matching)  - so once you have a colour that matches it to your eyes then I think you're done. Taking into account the sheen off plastic surfaces, your eyes should be pretty consistent in how they view the greens when comparing shades to A42. 

I'd try to get to a colour that matches A42 reasonably well and then use that as my base colour - lightening it before application a little for a more sun bleached look,  or applying it as-is before going to town with dark washes if wanted to lather on a bit of grime. That approach should result in a nice bit of variation within the spectrum of CIE green

There is a genuine issue about females whose fathers have Daltonism - red/green colour blindness - they often have enhanced perception of reds and browns.

[Flying Snail]

7 hours ago, Broithe said:

There is a genuine issue about females whose fathers have Daltonism - red/green colour blindness - they often have enhanced perception of reds and browns.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise - there's lots of different genetic conditions that impact how we perceive the world around us: and not just sight, but taste and the other senses too

[Broithe]

2 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise - there's lots of different genetic conditions that impact how we perceive the world around us: and not just sight, but taste and the other senses too

Indeed, there are all sorts of odd individual perception issues - I even see slightly different colours in each eye, most noticeable with pale creams, etc - probably due to the start of a cataract.
 

Trust nobody - not even yourself.

 

An odd one that I accidentally found, when trying to fix a disaster at work once, is that your vision doesn't all operate in the same time-frame. The centre is processed faster, as it is more likely to be important, I suppose.

I  needed to illuminate an object down a small, long hole - this meant having the torch right next to my eye - when I turned it on, the object lit up just before the torch did, apparently. The processing delay is short, only just perceptible, but it was very obvious when it happens 'in the wrong order'

[Mike 84C]

I finished up painting my American coaches, which are often a shade of Tuscan, with a rattle can of Ford Damask Red and I think they look the db's.!

Broithe, get yourself to the optician! Been there and done that.

[Broithe]

9 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

Broithe, get yourself to the optician! Been there and done that.

It is being watched - from inside and outside...

Edited January 7 by Broithe

[Mol_PMB]

In the search for my "nugget of purest green" I have painted some more samples and taken some more photos. The full list of paints is now as follows:

1    Tamiya    spray    TS-35 Park Green
2    Railmatch    spray    1632 SR Malachite Green
3    Humbrol    acrylic spray    80 Grass Green
4    Railmatch    jar    620 LNER Doncaster green
5    Precision    tinlet    P50 LNER Loco Green (Doncaster)
6    Revell    tinlet    SM364 Leaf Green
7    Revell    tinlet    SM360 Fern Green
8    Precision    tinlet    P892 Tank Green (this was supplied when I ordered CIE green)

I have also decided that it's best to view them against a black backdrop, because green rolling stock had black underframes and black rooves (whether painted black or covered in Crossley excreta) and so we would normally see the green on our models framed by black.

Here are the 8 samples under layout lighting and compared to A42: 1 to 4 on the top row and 5 to 8 on the bottom row:

Here's a similar photo but with the colours shuffled so that the front-runners are in the top row and the also-rans in the bottom row:

Here is the same arrangement outside in the winter sunshine. The colours look pleasingly similar which suggests my layout light balance is OK. 

Here are the 4 better ones alongside the roof of A42 for a closer comparison:

To my eyes the best match to the hue of A42 is sample 6. It's a little darker but pretty close (and I think A42 is a bit too bright) @Mike 84C, you win the prize with Revell SM364. 

Sample 2 (Railmatch SR Malachite) is good for a slightly darker weathered shade.

 

It must be said that the colours in prototype photos vary hugely and these three would be best matched by sample 7. But maybe they are slides where the blue component has faded?

(note that A11 which is a preferred prototype of mine has some unusual features to its livery - green frame ends and I think a black-painted roof.)

 

 

Anyway, the experiments haven't quite finished because I have some transfers to apply to the samples. Watch this space.

[Mol_PMB]

Mixed success with my decal experiments. Another attempt will be needed.

Railtec produce some eau-de-nil transfers but there are major gaps in the range needed for light green carriages and locos, including 2" lining, loco numbering, carriage numbering and 'GUARD' insignia.

So I had a custom sheet produced by Precision Decals. The downside there is that they can't print eau-de-nil, but they can print white in various different grades of opaqueness. For truly opaque white I normally overlay two layers of white.

So I tried using a partially opaque white, thinking that some of the green would show through and look a bit like faded eau-de-nil. Many photos show the lining and the class designations faded to different shades:

It didn't really work. This trial panel includes EdN and white snails from Railtec, and partially opaque white line from Precision. You can see a bit of green through the line, but only just. 

However, John at Precision tells me that he has an alternative "ER Pastel White" ink which is even thinner than the partially opaque white ink, and definitely allows a show-through of underlying colours, as it's intended to be a means to white-wash pastel-ize other colours. I could try again with that. 

Alternatively there is a very faint possibility that Steve at Railtec might respond to my request for some lining and numbering in eau-de-nil. I'm not holding my breath...

 

 

I also did some trials of transfers for the windows, intended to be applied to the inside of the glass. The representation of old etched glass labels worked well, again this uses the partially opaque white ink. However, my attempt at a yellow, black and white smoking label/advert hasn't worked for some reason. I'll have to try again with that.

Gettting a bit off topic now, sorry.

[Mol_PMB]

Just to wrap up and thank everyone for their contributions, here is the 6-wheel coach painted in Revell SM364, which was the chosen shade.

It's had a light coating of 'micro gloss' to protect the decals but has not yet had any weathering. That will happen this weekend but I wanted to capture the unweathered shade in a photo first.

Compare with IRM A42 in out-of-the-box condition which is a very similar hue but a bit lighter. Also the green van is Railmatch SR malachite with a bit of weathering applied.

Decals on the coach are Railtec eau-de-nil for the class numerals, Precision Decals 'opaque white' (slightly translucent) for the carriage number, and Precision Decals double layer of solid white and opaque white for the tonnage:

Looking this close the imperfections stand out too much! Hopefully they will be concealed by some weathering.

[jhb171achill]

Nothing was ever either white or off-white - everything was the same eau-de-nil. Most of what appears whitish in photos is the deterooration of the photo (or low quality of iriginal film used to take the picture*), and the rest would be due to fading, like the door numbers on the MGWR 6-wheel first that was on the Loughrea branch in the late 50s. 

(* Sadly, while Cyril Fry was a great modeller and also took a number of highly interesting pictures of some very interesting subject matter, he scrimped and saved with colour film! Much of his colour stuff - in fact, most of it - is so poor now that it's beyond redemption - there is very little that reliable livery details could be gleaned from, if those doing the gleaning didn't already know what was correct....!)

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

Nothing was ever either white or off-white - everything was the same eau-de-nil. Most of what appears whitish in photos is the deterooration of the photo (or low quality of iriginal film used to take the picture*), and the rest would be due to fading, like the door numbers on the MGWR 6-wheel first that was on the Loughrea branch in the late 50s. 

(* Sadly, while Cyril Fry was a great modeller and also took a number of highly interesting pictures of some very interesting subject matter, he scrimped and saved with colour film! Much of his colour stuff - in fact, most of it - is so poor now that it's beyond redemption - there is very little that reliable livery details could be gleaned from, if those doing the gleaning didn't already know what was correct....!)

Yes, I know, but I can't get the right decals in the eau-de-nil so I'm trying to make do! 

The tonnage on the ends will almost disappear under the weathering, and the coach number on the side is so small and fine that you would be very hard-pushed to tell the difference. It isn't entirely white anyway as some of the green shows through.

As shown in many of the colour images above, they did fade to quite a variety of colours and often things like lining (painted eau de nil) faded to quite a different shade to the class numbers (transfers). 

[Galteemore]

Exactly. Beautiful model. You should be well pleased with that