CC1's Frames

[minister_for_hardship]

Also I know they were very reluctant to use arignas coal. Did arigna have bad quility coal? i think i heard that they did before but i am not sure

 

It was said that the local fire brigade kept a few tons of Arigna coal handy in case a fire broke out in the area...

 

 

in other words, it wasn't very good.

Edited March 15, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Weshty]

When I was in the GSRPS back in the early 80's I had the chance to shoot the breeze with a few railway workers of a mature vintage who were utterly bemused at us reviving steam. To them diesel was your only man in every single way, cleaner, faster and more efficient. No clean outs, 6 am startups, manual loading of fuel etc......

 

It's a variation of the Manchan Magan type who bemoans the loss of the old ways of cutting and saving hay (scyth and haycocks et al), but didn't have to do the f&&^ing thing, backbreaking day in and day out, year after year........

[Garfield]

Well Warbonnet it might make a difference as because sliedh gullion was handed to the UTA it was insured a longer life which gave it a chance to be preserved. I believe if more locos had just managed to the late 60s they might have been given a chance due to RPSI railtours.Also at the end of the 70s it was recoarded that some locos had very low scrap value which would have made them much cheaper to purchase by the RPSI or UFTM

 

It wasn't just the fuel supply that did for steam power, whether coal or turf was used. The cost of maintaining a steam locomotive is many multiples of the cost of keeping a diesel loco maintained. Plus, a diesel can be crewed by a single driver, whereas a steam locomotive required two men, so wage bills were much lower, too. Not to mention, you can start a diesel locomotive and have it in service quickly, while a steam engine would take hours to get ready after the fire was lit.

 

Edit: From a track maintenance perspective, diesel is preferable, too, because steam locomotives produce hammer blow which would damage track over time.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Garfield

[Warbonnet]

Well Warbonnet it might make a difference as because sliedh gullion was handed to the UTA it was insured a longer life which gave it a chance to be preserved. I believe if more locos had just managed to the late 60s they might have been given a chance due to RPSI railtours.Also at the end of the 70s it was recoarded that some locos had very low scrap value which would have made them much cheaper to purchase by the RPSI or UFTM

 

Still don't think it would've made much of a difference. Only so much can be saved, looked after properly by enough manpower that's interested in working for free etc. you're dealing in little more than assumptions to be honest.

[Weshty]

One of the Bandon tanks was available for c.£400 in the mid 60's (c.€10,000 today), they could raise £350, but CIE wouldn't wait for the remainder to be raised and so off she went to the scrappers.

Go figure.

[GSR 800]

Thats a shame, as the Bandon tank were the pefect large irish tank. handsome lines too

[GSR 800]

its a real shame that so few irish steam AND vintage diesel were preserved.their are only about 30 preserved irish locos while their is hundreds of english ones (even though ireland only ever had about 1000 locos altogether)

[Warbonnet]

its a real shame that so few irish steam AND vintage diesel were preserved.their are only about 30 preserved irish locos while their is hundreds of english ones (even though ireland only ever had about 1000 locos altogether)

 

And 20 times the population. There is little interest in industrial heritage in this country sadly.

[GSR 800]

And 20 times the population. There is little interest in industrial heritage in this country sadly.

Yes this is tragecally true.But surely we,on this forum are proud of our industrial heritage.I mean how many turf burning locomotives were ever built?We built3 engines that is the equivelent of having a big boy in britain,yet we did it.We built the last and most modern 4-4-0s on earth. All this on a tiny island in the atlantic.I think we have done pretty well dont you think?

[Weshty]

It's down to what was perceived as culturally important at the time.

 

If it was as gaeilge, associated with the Blaskets, Mother Church or the great Freedom Fight, you might have had some hope.

 

Remnants of a Victorian industrial influence were just not on the radar, look at the wholesale destruction of Dublin's architectural heritage at the same time.

 

Is is very little exaggeration to say that we are very lucky to have what we have left.

[Warbonnet]

Yes this is tragecally true.But surely we,on this forum are proud of our industrial heritage.I mean how many turf burning locomotives were ever built?We built3 engines that is the equivelent of having a big boy in britain,yet we did it.We built the last and most modern 4-4-0s on earth. All this on a tiny island in the atlantic.I think we have done pretty well dont you think?

 

Our volunteers have done well to keep them alive in preservation. They're constantly crying out for volunteers. Instead of wishing history from 50 years ago could be changed the future of what's left is the most important consideration right now.

[GSR 800]

I believe another reason for steam dissapearing from ireland so swiftly was because they had still engines from the 1880s. They knew they were at a loss but its no wonder if you have something nearly a century old.they should have scrapped older locos to make enough money and space for new ones. this is what should have happened in the 30s. If you scrap an old loco you would be able to build a new one.and because of the Great Depression the prices for new locos would be lower.

[Riversuir226]

One of the Bandon tanks was available for c.£400 in the mid 60's (c.€10,000 today), they could raise £350, but CIE wouldn't wait for the remainder to be raised and so off she went to the scrappers.

Go figure.

The story goes that in 1963, 463 & 464 were the last two survivors, 464 was in use as a stationary boiler in Inchicore while 463 had the embarrasement of been towed by a c class out of Cork. Colm Creedon & co wrote to Cie about the availabilty of the two with request to save one for preservation which was refused but they offered to sell instead prices quoted were £500 ex works or £700 delivered to Cork Albert Qy. Despite big efforts only £100 could be raised, this was offered as a down payment but cie wanted payment in full immediately, unfortunately this made it impossible to gather the bobs in time to save 464 (463 was cut up during correspondence).

Edited March 15, 2015 by Riversuir226

[GSR 800]

Very true Warbonnet. We had no.4 and J15 no 184 at Mullingar. they got turned there and everything. fond memories.The engineer on no.4 let me blow the whistle. A few years later i went to look around at the old yard when i was told to leave or the gards would be called! still managed a few pictures of an old tender there.Believe off one of the latter batch of the U class.all paint gone, but amazingly the UTA crest remains!

[GSR 800]

[Weshty]

The story goes that in 1963, 463 & 464 were the last two survivors, 464 was in use as a stationary boiler in Inchicore while 463 had the embarrasement of been towed by a c class out of Cork. Colm Creedon & co wrote to Cie about the availabilty of the two with request to save one for preservation which was refused but they offered to sell instead prices quoted were £500 ex works or £700 delivered to Cork Albert Qy. Despite big efforts only £100 could be raised, this was offered as a down payment but cie wanted payment in full immediately, unfortunately this made it impossible to gather the bobs in time to save 464 (463 was cut up during correspondence).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18329[/ATTACH]

 

Ouch, £500 in '65 is about €25,000, that's a lot of dosh.

[Garfield]

A few years later i went to look around at the old yard when i was told to leave or the gards would be called!

 

And rightly so, I have to say. It's private property and still considered part of the working railway. Definitely not a place for an unauthorised/untrained/uninsured person to be wandering around.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Garfield

[Glenderg]

As someone who approaches conservation and restoration from an architectural angle, i think as an island we have to be very grateful that the we very marginally affected by the destruction of europe, and the built heritage of the railway system is still largely intact. The attitude across the ditch was far more severe with buildings being tossed for no reason whatsoever in the Beeching Era. I've had the good fortune to know displaced paddy's in london in the eighties who were involved in "super modren"'plans for St. pancreas, kings cross and others and they are not very proud of it.

 

We may have only a handful of steam locos left, most static in cultra, but they won't be cut up any time soon. And if they ever return to the rails, the built environment will be in place. It's just a shame no MGWR variants remain but those tears can be held for another hanky. R.

[murrayec]

Hi

 

Live Steam!

 

A very powerful gas that can do huge work and be generated by simple means- it's just that the old boys that tinkered with engine design stayed old hat! When British Railways built their last boiler for their last loco 'Evening Star' although bigger it was not much different from Stephenson's 'Rocket' but with a superheater attached.

 

Bullied was the man, he was one of the first to adopted welded boilers, and welding throughout the locos construction, cutting manufacturing costs by half- he was before his time but to late in the competition with diesel and still slightly old hat. He was working with a grossly low thermal efficiency system mainly due to the boiler design. He was to early for new advances in the manufacture of water tube walled fireboxes and other more modern build methods which ultimately led to high thermal efficiency steam locos fired on oil and gas.... Most of this work carried on through the 60's, 70s & 80s in Africa, China & Brazil or Argentina- guys like David Wardale & Dante Porta.

 

How CIE ever thought that turf would work with the old boiler design, with it's low thermal efficiency using coal to start with!

 

About 2 years ago I with others did a feasibility study on building a replica steam locomotive- we do have dreams!, I spoke with a few engineer's in England and found a company who were involved in making the wheels for the 'Tornado' A1, a very nice helpful man- he even came back to let me know that they still had the mould blanks to cast the wheels we needed! He put me in touch with a company that manufactured steam boilers, the kind we put in office buildings and Hospitals to work heating systems run on gas or oil- very popular in Finland, high in efficiency. They manufacture a product which is mobile, a self contained burner and boiler in a small handy package that fits in a small car trailer, they gave me the spec of the machine and after a discussion with the engineering wheel man, a few calculations done he concluded that the system would produce plenty of steam, to much for what we wanted to push! It's a very efficient system, it works like a power shower- fires water into a container in front of the burner and instantly turns it into high pressure steam. No fire warm up time, just wait for a head of steam and your on the regulator.

 

The boiler company were to get back to me on the suitability for our application, the project sort of fizzled out and I never chased them up!

 

I know this is not the same as burning coal, making noise and getting a black face, but live steam in modern design systems is 2 to 3 fold more efficient than the old locos- what a pity the old boys couldn't in 100 years change from Stephenson's original design.

 

I still love them though, beasts....

 

Eoin

[minister_for_hardship]

Very true Warbonnet. We had no.4 and J15 no 184 at Mullingar. they got turned there and everything. fond memories.The engineer on no.4 let me blow the whistle. A few years later i went to look around at the old yard when i was told to leave or the gards would be called! still managed a few pictures of an old tender there.Believe off one of the latter batch of the U class.all paint gone, but amazingly the UTA crest remains!

 

There was a time up to the 80's and maybe early 90's that pottering around railway property or crossing the lines to take photos during railtours was par for the course.

Can't have that on a modern railway. Period.

[GSR 800]

Can't have that on a modern railway. Period.

Such a shame. transpotting and seeing engines getting

steamed up or diesels ticking over is a thing of the past.Once at an open day in inchicore a group of boys opened 800s smokebox door and looked in! one even got in!

[GSR 800]

Hi

 

Live Steam!

 

A very powerful gas that can do huge work and be generated by simple means- it's just that the old boys that tinkered with engine design stayed old hat! When British Railways built their last boiler for their last loco 'Evening Star' although bigger it was not much different from Stephenson's 'Rocket' but with a superheater attached.

 

Bullied was the man, he was one of the first to adopted welded boilers, and welding throughout the locos construction, cutting manufacturing costs by half- he was before his time but to late in the competition with diesel and still slightly old hat. He was working with a grossly low thermal efficiency system mainly due to the boiler design. He was to early for new advances in the manufacture of water tube walled fireboxes and other more modern build methods which ultimately led to high thermal efficiency steam locos fired on oil and gas.... Most of this work carried on through the 60's, 70s & 80s in Africa, China & Brazil or Argentina- guys like David Wardale & Dante Porta.

 

How CIE ever thought that turf would work with the old boiler design, with it's low thermal efficiency using coal to start with!

 

About 2 years ago I with others did a feasibility study on building a replica steam locomotive- we do have dreams!, I spoke with a few engineer's in England and found a company who were involved in making the wheels for the 'Tornado' A1, a very nice helpful man- he even came back to let me know that they still had the mould blanks to cast the wheels we needed! He put me in touch with a company that manufactured steam boilers, the kind we put in office buildings and Hospitals to work heating systems run on gas or oil- very popular in Finland, high in efficiency. They manufacture a product which is mobile, a self contained burner and boiler in a small handy package that fits in a small car trailer, they gave me the spec of the machine and after a discussion with the engineering wheel man, a few calculations done he concluded that the system would produce plenty of steam, to much for what we wanted to push! It's a very efficient system, it works like a power shower- fires water into a container in front of the burner and instantly turns it into high pressure steam. No fire warm up time, just wait for a head of steam and your on the regulator.

 

The boiler company were to get back to me on the suitability for our application, the project sort of fizzled out and I never chased them up!

 

I know this is not the same as burning coal, making noise and getting a black face, but live steam in modern design systems is 2 to 3 fold more efficient than the old locos- what a pity the old boys couldn't in 100 years change from Stephenson's original design.

 

I still love them though, beasts....

 

Eoin

 

So are you saying this could be a new highly efficient steam engine?

[GSR 800]

And rightly so, I have to say. It's private property and still considered part of the working railway. Definitely not a place for an unauthorised/untrained/uninsured person to be wandering around.

 

Except they are made a cycling path there,which is public property.but they might have thought we were "up to something"

[GSR 800]

Back to the turfburner,have you ever seen the testbed?

[Mayner]

Ouch, £500 in '65 is about €25,000, that's a lot of dosh.

 

 

£500 for a Bandon Tank looks like a bargain for a loco complete with copper fittings compared to the prices paid by British enthusiasts for Barry wrecks in the early 1970s.

 

Like owning a race horse buying the loco would have just been the start of the expense, at the RPSI paid nearly £3000 for 171s overhaul during the late 60s .

 

At the time having a working steam loco might have generated the critical mass to establish a Cork based excursion train business or a heritage line in West Cork.

 

CIE regularly operated excursion trains on the Youghal branch and turning the line over to an excursion group was actually considered in the 1st McKinsey report on CIE

 

While the railways in Northern Ireland were under serious threat the RPSI appears to have been lucky to be in the right place at the right time 186 was donated, 171 leased from the UTA, RPSI locos were expected to earn their board and lodging on NIR metals by shunting and working engineers trains until a permanent base at Whitehead was established.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Mayner

[minister_for_hardship]

£500 for a Bandon Tank looks like a bargain for a loco complete with copper fittings compared to the prices paid by British enthusiasts for Barry wrecks in the early 1970s.

 

 

Probably was, but what was lacking then was disposable income (when people were packing emigrant boats) and a general interest in industrial heritage in the population (true both back then and now)

[Warbonnet]

As someone who approaches conservation and restoration from an architectural angle, i think as an island we have to be very grateful that the we very marginally affected by the destruction of europe, and the built heritage of the railway system is still largely intact. The attitude across the ditch was far more severe with buildings being tossed for no reason whatsoever in the Beeching Era. I've had the good fortune to know displaced paddy's in london in the eighties who were involved in "super modren"'plans for St. pancreas, kings cross and others and they are not very proud of it.

 

 

Too right, what they did to Euston in the 60s was a thundering disgrace!

[GSR 800]

.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GSR 800

[GSR 800]

Too right, what they did to Euston in the 60s was a thundering disgrace!

What did they do? some hideous modernisation?

[Garfield]

Except they are made a cycling path there,which is public property.but they might have thought we were "up to something"

 

The cycleway isn't public property, it's publicly-accessible. And it doesn't run through the middle of the yard in Mullingar, where your photo was taken. Trespassing very much counts as being 'up to something'.

[Weshty]

The Euston arch. Dear lord but 60's planning really does have a lot to answer for.

 

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215583/Historic-arch-destroyed-60s-planners-rebuilt-station-stones-dumped-river.html

[GSR 800]

i thought they were going to tear up the track and possibly turn the old station into a cafe/tourist centre.That is what i heard

[GSR 800]

luckily the didnt tear up the track

[Garfield]

i thought they were going to tear up the track and possibly turn the old station into a cafe/tourist centre.That is what i heard

 

What you heard? The yard is still used by permanent way vehicles and for accessing the RPSI's depot there, so the track is staying put. The path will be adjacent to the railway line (not built on it) wherever it joins up with it. You were trespassing.

[Warbonnet]

The Euston arch. Dear lord but 60's planning really does have a lot to answer for.

 

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215583/Historic-arch-destroyed-60s-planners-rebuilt-station-stones-dumped-river.html

 

And from this http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/web/x/f/q/euston_355.jpg

 

to this

 

http://www.dailydooh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/e-motion_emailablesmallersize.jpg