Extracts from old Working Timetables

[jhb171achill]

Finally we move on to what was about the last timetable to feature regular steam. While Mountmellick is now worked by a “C” class, usually with an old GSWR wooden bogie and a new “tin van” doing passenger service, the Banagher branch had a G601 and was goods-only, while was worked by a Midland 2.4.0 or 0.6.0, the passenger set usually an old Midland 6-wheeled brake, with another old GSWR bogie.

Ardee has its daily goods, by now usually an A class, though I wouldn’t be surprised if a GNR 0.6.0 might still have been about.

The C class weren’t really seen on the GNR then.

At Edo’s request, the North Wexford line and Dublin - Waterford services too.

 

[Edo]

Thanks a million JHB - I really appreciate it!

the whole thread is brilliant.

I'm looking out the window here just north of my adopted home of Limerick -watching Storm Hannah relentlessly strip away the blossoms and embryonic fruit off the Pear, plum and apple trees in the back garden....................they were doing so well up to now !! . If you are heading out tonight on the roads - be careful - this Hannah one won't be taking prisoners.........

that said - with a gin and tonic in hand - Im not stirring for the night - and I'll be reading this thread as long as the electrics hold out!

There is something near magical and massively evocative about all those timetables JHB - those early ones are works of art in themselves- I hope you have a designated good home for them when your time with them is done. It would be a terrible shame to see documents like that lost or in the hands of somebody who places no value on them.

I guess what really hits me going down the lists of long closed stations on long closed lines is that its only the bones of 60 years since the majority of them closed for good - it might aswell be 360 years ago for all they matter or are remembered today. It's a view into a totally different way of life in a totally different Ireland than today - its an irony that the world of 1961 in Ireland would be have been far more familiar to my great grandfather who died in 1942 than to myself who was born 30 years after - this country has utterly transformed in the last 50 years and our railways and our attitude to them reflects that.

The Railways were an intrinsic and vital part of daily life in lifetimes of my parents, grandparents and great grandparents. From tales of my Great grandfather smuggling guns from the Asgard down to the volunteers in Carlow and Kilkenny in the coal tender of the daily mixed goods from Kingsbridge in 1913, getting arrested at Palace East by the British Intelligence as he did a legger on Easter Monday 1916 ,and participating in a bit of auld "vandalism" to the Engine shed and points in Ballywilliam in the early 20's.  My grandmother taking the daily train to Goresbridge from Borris for music lessons with the Nuns in the Convent there and my dad and his friends who used to bum lifts on the beet trains to Bagnalstown and Carlow for hurling games in the winter time. My mum was from Waterford - so we were constantly regaled with tales of the much loved Tramore train where she would go out to the resort, go on the amusements, go swimming,  buy lots of ice cream and take the train back to the city and still have enough change out of two pence to buy a bag of chips on the way home!!!...............my childhood is filled with memories of tracing the track of the old line all the way down to New Ross in the back of the car,straining to see up to what remained of New Ross Station if we were stopped to let a fertilizer train pass at the bridge - dragging my Grandfather to the station in Waterford to watch the trains go by and standing transfixed in the garden of my aunty's house near Stradbally as the Dolomite trains passed by on their way to ballinacourty......................its all gone now -  in the case of the Bagnalstown to Palace east - its like it never existed in the first place apart from the viaduct in Borris and some overgrown undisturbed cuttings here and there......for now

 For those of us who live outside Dublin, and to a lesser extent Cork and Belfast ........the railways have totally lost their relevance to our lives - its an era that has passed on. There is no big baddie to point the finger at - outside of the assassination of the GNR in the late 50's up north( that was just plain wrong ) the railways decline in rural Ireland is a result of the way the people of rural ireland have chosen to live their lives and carry out their business...better roads , better and more reliable automobiles  along with containerisation etc etc played a big part in that - the railways just weren't needed anymore when you could just jump in your car and go anywhere at anytime - likewise when you can ship your goods from one destination to another in one go at any time that suits - why go through the whole rigmaroll of goods sheds and loading and unloading etc etc............Personally - its sad to see a way of life coming to an end like that - but the samething is happening in town and villages right across the country now as the shops close down as the discounters move in and online shopping takes precedence - everybody says its really sad and something must be done - but their spending habits would tell a different story..................the number of family businesses going to the wall for the chance to buy discounted chainsaws along with cheap avocados every 6 months will be a tale for ages in decades hence..........

Anyhoo - after that tangent into social history ( you'd know I was a history grad back in the day!)  - back to choo-choos - What was a shame was the rapid selling off of the land and permanent way of all those closed down lines in the 60s and 70's - and the utterly derelict state of much of the infrastructure left behind. I know a lot of folks here take to the drink when the word "greenway" is mentioned around here. ......but lets have a reality check  lads - the lines that are shut are never coming back - outside of the greater Dublin suburban area - there will be no new railway lines in Ireland again - the re-opening of Midleton and particularly Ennis to Athenry were Celtic Tiger Freak moments - never to be repeated - looking at the next 20 years - if the existing network minus Limerick junction to Waterford and Limerick to Ballybrophy, is retained - it will be some achievement - the 2 Tipp branch lines will be gone within 10 years - there might be an extension of the dunboyne line and more light railways in the Dublin area - and the Tipp branches will be put out to grass to pay for them -but thats it - the best the rest of the network can hope for is retention of what is there and maybe - with European funds - electricification of Dublin - Dundalk and Dublin - Cork.

So how to keep the memories of the closed lines alive - Greenways would appear to be the answer - the Waterford Greenway is superb - its a real pity that the same didn't happen to all the closed lines in the 60's ..........Bagnalstown to Palace east thru the rolling valleys under the Blackstairs would have been a magificent route - likewise the Shillealagh line in Wicklow, the West Cork lines , the Kerry Lines , not to mention Connemeara and Clare ..........and the list goes on and on - the alignment preserved and the history held on to. When I was a kid - you could jump over a gate and go rambling thru the countryside and fields without a care in the world..........nowadays, in a time of insurance claims and rural hysteria over crime - you take your life in your hands doing the same - Greenways are popular because they are becoming part of the few places where us landless citizens can take a walk or cycle in the countryside without fear of being knocked down or accused of trespass...........and the tourists love them. The Trains that ran on them are never coming back - lets preserve their echoes as best we can.

Im rambling on now - time for another drinkie, another peruse thru those magnificent timetables and dream again of beet wagons, Cattle wagons and how to replicate Limestone stonework in the 00 world!

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Many thanks, Edo. I have a pretty large collection, and as you suggest once I go to that Great Locomotive Shed in the Sky, they will go to a good home. An attached condition will be that they will be available for all to see, not secreted away and hidden from all but a small chosen few, as are some things donated to some archives.

I thinned the collection out considerably a few years ago, but I retain some GNR, NCC and narrow gauge, SLNCR, and most of the GSR / CIE from 1926 to 1986. I must confess that nothing much on the railway since 1986 interests me in the slightest! I think that can be said for many of us who (a) remember steam and flying snails, loose coupled goods trains and branch lines, and (b) have seen a 60th birthday fade into historical oblivion! Mind you, I know one very fresh 82-year-old who could give you chapter and verse on ICRs! 

I agree with you about the comparative irrelevance of railways in rural Ireland nowadays - true, but a pity. If Dublin wasn't choked with traffic it would probably be the same here too.

If there's anything else that interests anyone, gimme a shout.

[jhb171achill]

Now we’ll move north to the Bann Valley and the beautiful Glens of Antrim....

Now to the timetables. It’s summer 1939, the Indian Summer of the NCC, when York Road to Derry took just over two hours, and the non stop Belfast to Larne Harbour boat train took HALF an hour - and this was almost ten years before the Jeeps were invented....

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Now, boys and girls, once you’ve read all of the above, please tear off the slip below, sign it, and send it to York Road.

And MAKE SURE that when you’re loading cattle trucks on the Derry Central, that you put the Protestant cattle and the Catholic ones in SEPARATE cattle trucks.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by jhb171achill

[DART8118]

JHB, You wrote,

"If there's anything else that interests anyone, gimme a shout".

The Timetable for PASSENGER TRAINS, Summer 1960, has an 8:10pm scheduled on weekdays to Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Sligo, and Dublin-Westport.  Same train to three destinations?  It is described as a Perishable train with limited accommodation for passengers.

Any accounts of the operation of this one?

I take it that perishable refers to fruit and veg, fish, meat and poultry, dairy products, and other foodstuffs.  Would it have had other goods too?

Any information on locomotive power or how that train was marshalled?

Many thanks again for all you have shared already.

8118

 

 

 

 

[DART8118]

Should have mentioned that the departure is from Westland Row each weekday.  For the return journey, trains depart at different times from Galway, Sligo, and Westport and the combined? train arrives at Westland Row at 40 minutes past midnight.  The return train seems to include a train from Ballina too.

 

 

[NIR]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2015 at 12:44 PM, jhb171achill said:

 

Manulla Junction at 2am must have been some place during a storm!

There is just too much to read in this thread...

Edited April 27, 2019 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, DART8118 said:

JHB, You wrote,

"If there's anything else that interests anyone, gimme a shout".

The Timetable for PASSENGER TRAINS, Summer 1960, has an 8:10pm scheduled on weekdays to Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Sligo, and Dublin-Westport.  Same train to three destinations?  It is described as a Perishable train with limited accommodation for passengers.

Any accounts of the operation of this one?

I take it that perishable refers to fruit and veg, fish, meat and poultry, dairy products, and other foodstuffs.  Would it have had other goods too?

Any information on locomotive power or how that train was marshalled?

Many thanks again for all you have shared already.

Indeed, DART811. Illustrations of relevant tables for Dublin - Galway, Westport, Ballina and Sligo to follow.

Yes, it was made of sections. Among my favourite railway memories are of travelling on the return version of this from Sligo one evening, leaving there at 18:10, I think, and arriving into Connolly at 01:25 or so, after a lengthy wait at Mullingar (an hour, awaiting the up Galway portion).

Up front were two 121s, the numbers of which I forget. the train consisted of an elderly brake standard, converted from either an old Bredin or a 1951-series CIE build to the same basic design. It had three side corridor compartments at one end, and the rest of it, some two thirds of the coach, was a giant parcels / guard / mail van. Next was a bogie mail coach, then a tin van, plus several other fitted vans of various types.

Three passengers boarded. I had come up from limerick that day on the solitary Limerick - Ballina departure as far as Claremorris, thence by old "E" class bus to Sligo. I missed the last train of the day (there were only three) to Dublin, so i went on the mail, which wasn't even advertised. It was sunny summer day, but as we approached Sligo it was clear it had been raining - the ground glistened in the evening sun, and black clouds vied for space in the firmament with blue sky and bright sun. One passenger got off at Collooney vanished into the evening sun to a waiting car. The other passenger drove me mad. A tall, angular man, with wild grey hair and a long black coat, he wandered up and down the (short!) corridor, mumbling to himself through a thick moustache that could have comfortably been called home by a sizeable community of rabbits, mice and pine martens. His coat portrayed a vivid canvas of remnants of the last six months' dinners in stained cameo down its front.

He came into my compartment. Why mine? There were three others. As the evening sun lengthened into shadows, I pretended to be asleep. If it was today, I'd pretend to be a "furriner". Me no speekee no eengleesh. The train stopped at every station to load and unload mailbags, cartons of washing powder, a lawnmower, and dear knows what. As the sun set over the boglands of Westmeath, we eventually arrived at Mullingar. My companion wandered up and down, mumbling as he went without break, and sticking to my compartment, or wherever I tried to go to, as his last few hang sangwidge remnants stuck to his moustache and shirt.

Fifty minutes at Mullingar were required to await the up Galway mail. It arrived with one 141 up front. Some shunting ensued, and eventually we were off, at about midnight. After several stops in the dark (signals? Crossing goods trains? I don't know - I was very sleepy now - irrespective of the Mumbler - arrival in Connolly (or was it Westland Row?) was about 01.25.

Mumbler exepted, I'd love to do it again. One of my only two nocturnal mail train journeys in Ireland. The other was less eventful, and I was the only passenger out of Galway.

Timetables follow, which should throw light on your query.

This is the 1960/1 WTT.

Edited April 27, 2019 by jhb171achill

[ttc0169]

59 minutes ago, NIR said:

Manulla Junction at 2am must have been some place during a storm!

 

Even during the late 1990s and 2000s...…it was some place....

[jhb171achill]

AAARRRGGGHHHH   How do i turn the above the right way up?

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

AAARRRGGGHHHH   How do i turn the above the right way up?

 

[jhb171achill]

More gems from 1960 in Edernderry. Look at the table to show how big cattle still was even then. NO Irish layout pre-'60 is authentic without considerable cattle traffic. especially in the south and west.

The Edenderry branch is still open - just - but awash with knew high weeds in many places. This plus many other rural lines are only open because nobody has yet closed them, but Todd Andrews will soon work his magic. Edenderry hasn't seen a passenger service in thirty years, but goods and cattle still go in there.

The previous timetable for the latter part of 1959 still has the tail end of the GNR. The Dublin - Clonsilla - Navan - Kingscourt is still operated as a separate planet from Drogheda - Navan - Oldcastle. The Dublin & Meath is still J18s and very "Midland" in character, while the Oldcastle branch is pure GNR, with a railcar doing passenger until recently but now just a GNR steam engine doing goods. 

With Brexit looming, and the choice of a bad outcome on this island, a worse one, or a disastrous one, thanks to our political friends, it's particularly appropriate to look at the last scene in this series - the rump Irish North left behind as a result of political matters. I could get very political here about these contemptible goons, but won't; I don't have the three weeks necessary to type out just the headings. And this isn't the forum, so enjoy the following and imagine the GNR vehicles with "U T" and "CIE" stencilled on the ends, with incursions of green and grey things with flying snails on them!

Edited April 27, 2019 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

Could be my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall before 1973 most Galway bound trains originated from Westland Row rather than Amiens Street (now Connolly since 1966). ie before they switched to Heuston.

[jhb171achill]

Just now, Noel said:

Could be my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall before 1973 most Galway bound trains originated from Westland Row rather than Amiens Street (now Connolly since 1966). ie before they switched to Heuston.

Correct. By the mid 70s the up and town evening mails were the ONLY trains across the Athlone - Mullingar section. I think it ended ‘77 or ‘78.... must look up in timetables!

[Noel]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

Correct. By the mid 70s the up and town evening mails were the ONLY trains across the Athlone - Mullingar section. I think it ended ‘77 or ‘78.... must look up in timetables!

I remember having to sit on a coach at one end of the train because the coach rake was split in Mullingar and if you weren't seated in the correct coach you ended up somewhere like sligo rather than Galway after they split the train into two one heading for Galway via old Moate Athlone link, the other heading to Sligo via Dromod/Carrick. I remember the coaches were green the first few times and after that B&T.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Noel said:

I remember having to sit on a coach at one end of the train because the coach rake was split in Mullingar and if you weren't seated in the correct coach you ended up somewhere like sligo rather than Galway after they split the train into two one heading for Galway via old Moate Athlone link, the other heading to Sligo via Dromod/Carrick. I remember the coaches were green the first few times and after that B&T.

Gawwwd be with the days, Noel. Oul ICRs now, not of one of which I've ever seen with cattle trucks in tow. Nor have I seen one stop to take on water.

[jhb171achill]

Incidentally, perusal of the depths of the catacombs throws up a spare 8th June 1970 WTT. If anyone wants it, say €15 + postage - PM me.

[Noel]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Gawwwd be with the days, Noel. Oul ICRs now, not of one of which I've ever seen with cattle trucks in tow. Nor have I seen one stop to take on water.

Use of extreme profanity like "I*R" on this forum could get both of us banned! There's 22,000 good reasons trains have engines at the front and carriages, couplings and buffers!  

[jhb171achill]

Clogher Valley, 1936/7.

David Holman & Fintonagh might like this one!

On the CVR at that time, as you can see, almost the whole service was operated by the one railcar, which (for modellers’ sake) was mid brown with a white roof.

Occasionally the diesel “Unit” deputised, hauling one coach and a four wheeled brake van. With the steep (albeit short) gradients, it couldn’t really haul more.

The one daily train above which isn’t marked as being railcar, was the solitary daily steam train by that time. It carried all the goods and ran as a mixed train.

[jhb171achill]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 8:00 AM, DART8118 said:

JHB, You wrote,

"If there's anything else that interests anyone, gimme a shout".

The Timetable for PASSENGER TRAINS, Summer 1960, has an 8:10pm scheduled on weekdays to Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Sligo, and Dublin-Westport.  Same train to three destinations?  It is described as a Perishable train with limited accommodation for passengers.

Any accounts of the operation of this one?

I take it that perishable refers to fruit and veg, fish, meat and poultry, dairy products, and other foodstuffs.  Would it have had other goods too?

Any information on locomotive power or how that train was marshalled?

Many thanks again for all you have shared already.

8118

DART, apologies; I have only noticed this question now - I'm a very slow learner....

Train make-up.

When the Midland operated with separate portions in steam days, we're looking at a Woolwich with separate portions, each consisting probably of a two passenger coaches and a six wheel van, maybe a mail van for one or more portions. The passenger coaches would be a mix of bogie and sixwheel, corridor and non-corridor. A diner would only be on Galway portions.

In 1960, it's going to an "A" class on a service like this, probably in green, but may still in (by now) VERY heavily weathered "silver". In modelling terms, a dull light grey weathered so very heavily that it really isn't that evident what the base colour actually is.

Behind it, the "portions" would be a mix of Bredins, laminates, Park Royals, and wooden coaches. A few are still MGWR but the majority by far of ex-GSWR design. Mail vans will be about a 50/50 mix of new "tin vans" and old wooden six wheel passenger brakes of Midland and GSWR designs. "Birdcage" brakes have gone by now, but what Midland vans are still running might have their origins in that design, but are now running with side duckets instead of a "birdcage" roof.

Needless to say, none of the older stock has a clerestorey roof. The Midland (like most Irish railways) didn't use them, and the handful of GSW ones were elsewhere.

On the back, a fitted cattle truck or goods van (newish CIE "H" van) is a possibility. Horse traffic doesn't figure that much now, but the odd one still occurs. Open wagons - no. They would go by goods train, as they were loose-coupled.

Liveries: Locos - as above. Carriages - mostly green, but with the odd older wooden one in the older darker green with the more elaborate lining - or - a few carriages which by now are in secondary stock, are the older green with NO lining. A few new laminates (but nothing else) are in the poor silver livery all over, though with extensive weathering at least to the roofs and bogies. Resist the temptation to paint their chassis black. Black'n'tan is over 18 months into the future, as are black "A" class locos. ALL wagons are grey all over. Roofs and chassis also grey. 

I hope this is helpful, albeit belatedly!

[DART8118]

Many thanks Jhb and no need to apologise.  Replies always welcome.

Good to get feedback on the shape of trains to the west.  Would those you mention have been mainly passenger trains?   Would they have been the Cu na Mara of CIE days?

If you have any information about the evening perishable train that ran at 8:10pm from Westland Row (with limited accommodation for passengers) that would be very welcome too.  Typically, what goods wagons would have been used for the perishables and if there were any special operational guidelines that applied.  Would the Woolwich and 'A' class have worked the perishable train?

 

Many thanks again.

 

8118

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Woolwiches and “A”s.

As for train make-up, I don’t know exactly, but any wagons would be fitted ones, obviously.

Coaching stock on the Midland main lines would have been bogie corridor stock by the 1950s, both of old wooden varieties (no two alike!) and by degrees Bredins, laminates and PRs. Six wheel passenger brakes would still feature large, of course, along with new tin vans.

Maybe someone else can comment on exact make up of “perishables”?