Narrow Gauge

tonybonneyba · December 4, 2015

On the new layout that I will be building a narrow Guage bit & hope to have part of it integrated in the main line (to allow the locos to go to the locomotives shed). The 00 gauge track will act as 5ft 3 inches, so what Guage of track will act as 3ft? HOm? 00-9? Where can I get such track?

Help would be much appreciated, anything that does will will be shown in " Anthony's Workshop ".

Thanks,

Tony.

Joe Keegan · December 4, 2015

Hi , Tillig make dual gauge track that you are looking for .

Garfield · December 4, 2015

In 4mm/OO gauge, HOm track is close to OOn3 - or 3ft at 1:1 scale, so ideal for Irish narrow gauge. As Joe says above, Tillig produces dual gauge track.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Garfield

Dhu Varren · December 4, 2015

OO-9 track is only 9mm gauge. In OO, 3ft gauge track is 12mm gauge. The options would be TT track which is spot on at 12mm, or HO-m which, although it translates to 13mm, is actually 12mm gauge, and is available from Peco.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Dhu Varren

jhb171achill · December 4, 2015

Tony, have look at the track plans of Larne (Town) in narrow gauge days, Ballymena, Ballymoney, Dromod, Strabane and Ennis to get ideas on how broad and narrow interacted. Usually there was a shared goods facility to enable transshipment of goods, not so much a joint engine shed. This was because all the narrow gauge lines were initially built by totally separate companies to their broader neighbours, thus had their own loco facilities. Even joint passenger platforms were rare; Ennis and Belturbet being about the only examples I can think of.

tonybonneyba · December 4, 2015

Okay, thanks all

JHB, I'll take a look now, thanks

tonybonneyba · December 5, 2015

Speak of NG....

I will use Tilling when it comes to the dual then Peco when it's the actual line its self (unless Peco make dual too). I know there's a height difference between Tilling & Peco, but I think I've came up with a solution, which is filling a very fine ramp in the Peco track since it's the highest to the correct height to the tilling track, then polish it silty.

tonybonneyba · December 7, 2015

Is it possible to reguage 00-9 (9mm) to TT / HOm (12mm) scale? (Coaches & wagons)?

As finding suitable carriages in TT/HOm scale is becoming difficult where the suitable is in 00-9 by peco.

Garfield · December 7, 2015

Is it possible to reguage 00-9 (9mm) to TT / HOm (12mm) scale? (Coaches & wagons)?

As finding suitable carriages in TT/HOm scale is becoming difficult where the suitable is in 00-9 by peco.

It's technically possible but it'll likely involve a lot of butchering and there's a probability the stock won't 'look right'.

josefstadt · December 7, 2015

Some of the European manufacturers, Bemo for example, produce HOm rolling stock which could form the basis of adaptions to Irish stock. Probably handier than trying to convert 009 stock.

Horsetan · December 7, 2015

BEMO HOm rolling stock is very expensive. May not be cost-effective.

tonybonneyba · December 7, 2015

Would it be cheaper to buy the peco coaches & put them on TT guage underframes (with modifications)?

The type if coach in question:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-009-Hoe-Gauge-Rolling-Stock-L-B-Brake-Composite-Passenger-Coach-SR-/161436082562?nav=SEARCH

GSR 800 · December 8, 2015

Would ye nearly be better scratch building or kit bashing?

tonybonneyba · December 8, 2015

Would ye nearly be better scratch building or kit bashing?

If there a kit, I'll use it, but finding one is like finding a 111 in Cork. I'll think about scratch building a carriage (which I'm not sure about doing) when I scratch build my first locomotive, No.21.

josefstadt · December 8, 2015

BEMO HOm rolling stock is very expensive. May not be cost-effective.

Agreed that it is a bit costly, but it's not outlandishly over priced. For example, Modellbahnshop-lippe.com (mentioned on an earlier thread in connection with DCC decoders) have the following:

€44.90 (would look great in GNRI blue & cream!)

€44.90

€49.90

€35.96

I've used them and have been very happy with the level of service they give.

jhb171achill · December 8, 2015

Join the 009 Society. While its scale 2ft gauge, they deal with British or Irish outline. Backwoods miniatures do kits of Tralee & dingle, Donegal and Manx stuff.

Weshty · December 8, 2015

+1 , Backwood Miniatures covers the Irish Narrow gauge very well. I'll find a catalog and put up when I get the chance.

Try Alphagraphics for 7mm narrow gauge, they have some lovely sets.

tonybonneyba · December 8, 2015

Would it not be possible to put a 009 kit body on a HOm/TT frame?

Your right, that coach would look exlecent in GNRI

josefstadt · December 8, 2015

Would it not be possible to put a 009 kit body on a HOm/TT frame?

It would depend on the size relationship between the 009 body and the HOm/TT frame. It could be done, maybe with some modifications to the length and width of the body.

jhb171achill · December 8, 2015

Years and years ago, I tried repainting some mainland European 009 stuff into CIE livery for an imaginary 1950s CIE layout. It really didn't even begin to look right.

David Holman · December 8, 2015

Seems to me that you have not yet made a decision on whether to go along a the prototype route, or go 'freelance'. If going prototype, then there are a fair few things available for 4mm scale/3' gauge [ie on 12mm track, which is also generally available]. Donegal in particular. The Backwoods miniatures stuff IS lovely, but not, I would suggest, for the beginner. Very delicate, much detail, plus often locos with outside valve gear etc.

When I moved from 4mm to 7mm scale in the early '90s, I initially went on the freelance route, building locos that were vaguely of an area, but not being a slave to total accuracy. Learned a lot in the process. One advantage is that you can use proprietary chassis & hopefully choose stuff that is known to run well - important once you start running trains. Likewise for coaches and wagons. Re these, would recommend doing wagons first. Coaches are not as simple as you'd think and can easily take as long to build as a loco.

Rather than try to use an 009 loco/coach on a 12mm chassis, consider using small standard gauge locos/stock on 12mm. Eg the Dapol/Hornby L&Y Pug, being very small, may convert downwards. Use a butchered body on a 12mm chassis? Don't forget, some of the Irish 3' stuff was pretty big.

Alternatively, why not consider 7mm NG on 16.4 track? You can easily get away with 600mm curves, the track is very available and you can have a lot of fun [very cheaply] converting 4mm scale models to 7mm. Here the Pug, Smokey Joe 0-4-0Ts come into their own. Likewise Hornby coaches, while Ratio wagom underarms are an ideal starting point for NG. 2mm plastic water pipe is ideal for loco boilers, while plastic sheet is ideal for other bodywork. I don't have any digital photos of my early stuff, but will dig out some photos to give an idea of what can be done.

Mayner · December 8, 2015

Trying to model Irish broad and narrow gauge with 00 & 00n3 or even HOn3 on the one layout is going to be challenging, it might be simpler to follow Merv Smith's example and go complexly freelance and use Liliput or Minitrains locos and stock in an Irish setting.

Merv Smith used HO9 to model a narrow gauge coal carrying line in a distinctly New Zealand South Island/West Coast setting in terms of scenery, vegetation, engineering and building practice.

The last of the common carrier Irish narrow gauge lines closed more than 60 years ago. A system linking Ireland, the Isle of Man and the British mainland had it existed or survived would be radically different from the Irish or Isle of Man systems and might equally have followed European or American practice.

Mayner · December 9, 2015

+1 , Backwood Miniatures covers the Irish Narrow gauge very well. I'll find a catalog and put up when I get the chance.

Try Alphagraphics for 7mm narrow gauge, they have some lovely sets.

The selection of Irish/Isle of Man 4mm (OOn3) loco and rolling stock kits is quite limited.

Backwoods Miniatures dropped the Irish 3' range several years ago. Sales of Irish models was poor compared to OO9 & American narrow gauge kits and imported brass rtr models. The owner Pete McParlin had not got around to updating the OOn3 section of the web site and may have retired and sold the business.

Branchlines P.O. Box 4293, WESTBURY, BA13 9AA, UK Tel./Fax: +44(0)1373 822231 Mon.-Thurs. 9.30-13.00, 14.00-18.00 prefer t do business by phone or post rather than electronic media

Branchlines may still produce kits for Isle of Man locos and coaches. The loco kits should be reasonably straightforward to build combining whitemetal bodies with nickel silver chassis. The kits were originally manufactured by GEM in the 1960s, and updated by Branchines in the 1990s with a more up to date chassis and drive system.

Branchlines also produced an etched kit for the Tralee and Dingle Hunslet 2-6-0T loco, the kit was challenging to construct in OOn3 due to very tight clearances between the driving wheel, coupling rods and valve gear.

Rolling stock included some very nice and reasonably straight forward kits for Tralee and Dingle and Clogher Valley coaches (CVR). The CVR coaches were very popular and usually built in OO9.

The wagon situation is somewhat better Parkside-Dundas produce a number high quality plastic kits for Tralee& Dingle van and open wagons. The OO9 Society commissioned Parkside to produce two separate designs of T&D cattle wagons.

Foxrock Models (Simon deSuza) http://newirishlines.org/2009/06/20/news-and-views/ produces a number of resin and etched brass for C&L coal wagons and ex Passage brake vans..

Worsley Works produce a large range of scratchbuilders parts for Irish narrow gauge including parts for some locos and coaches for the majority of 3' lines, but are not really suited for the beginner.

You could follow the example of the late the David Lloyd author of Modeling the Irish Narrow Gauge, David built a very nice collection of static steam locos in plasticard and used Bemo diesels to haul the trains on his Coolcalaghta West Cork narrow gauge layout.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Mayner

Horsetan · December 9, 2015

The selection of Irish/Isle of Man 4mm (OOn3) loco and rolling stock kits is quite limited.

Backwoods Miniatures dropped the Irish 3' range several years ago. Sales of Irish models was poor compared to OO9 & American narrow gauge kits and imported brass rtr models. The owner Pete McParlin had not got around to updating the OOn3 section of the web site and may have retired and sold the business.

....

Now that's a real shame if the Irish 3' range has been lost forever. If you were modelling the CDRJC in particular, Backwoods kits were pretty much your only option.

Pete always did say on the website that the kits were only produced to order, and he didn't normally keep stocks of them on the shelves. That's exactly what happened back in 2001 when I ordered a kit for the Class 5 to build "Drumboe" - it was a matter of waiting a couple of weeks whilst Pete got all the parts and wheels together.

Think I might send Backwoods an e-mail to establish what the actual situation is.

tonybonneyba · December 9, 2015

^^ I have decided, I have decided that I'm going use TT/HOm for the narrow gauge branch line & 00 guage for the the mainline & dual gauge for the branch line to depot. The whole idea of this model railway is to be realistic but at the same time be fictional.

Eg. "The 3ft gauge branch line from Meganthreu to Port Eiréanis was originally ran by the GNRI in partnership with CIE, but both companies no longer wanted to ran it, so the Manx Northern Railway Co. bought the partnership in 1948. The branch line has been ran by the the MNRC ever since. The branch line is operated by two trains, one in each direction. It holds three locomotives, No. 21, the newest diesel loco, No. 22 & a steam engine. The branch line is operated with one steam engine & one diesel, or if the steam engine is getting works done or a rest, two diesels. One train is operated with a dining service while the other is a carparment train. The branch line has five stations, those are,

•Meganthreu

•River Nore

•Ballynawood

•Bridge End

&

•Port Eiréanis".

The model railway layout I'm building will hold the stations & the branch line from River Nore to Bridge End.

Coaches: I think I have found suitable coaches to be the diner coaches from that German (?) website that was posted in this thread a while back. With slit modification & repaint, I think it'll work.

Locos:

I hope to scratch build a body for the doner locomotive chasia on eBay to make it look close or just like IOMR No.21

The other locomotive will also have a scratch build body for another doner chasia (still looking) to the similar design of 21 but with out the narrow walk way.

The steam locomotive is a standard IOMR steam locomotive from Oxford Die-cast, being in shops next year, but only available in IOMR stations & museum. .

I hope this clears things up for you David, Mayner & Horse tan. My second question was only for the carparment coaches.

But thanks for the help & advice anyways.

Garfield · December 9, 2015

The IOMR locomotive isn't a bad place to start as an almost identical locomotive operated on the Ballymena & Larne line (or was it the Ballycastle? I can't remember exactly...).

Horsetan · December 9, 2015

Since you will be using BEMO HOm coaches, make sure you've got enough money to fund them. At about 40 quid each (or more), they're not exactly cheap.

General rule of HO or HOm is that, if buying new, anything Swiss outline is going to be very expensive.

tonybonneyba · December 9, 2015

Since you will be using BEMO HOm coaches, make sure you've got enough money to fund them. At about 40 quid each (or more), they're not exactly cheap.

General rule of HO or HOm is that, if buying new, anything Swiss outline is going to be very expensive.

I'm still thinking about it. If I find cheaper, I'll get it.

jhb171achill · December 9, 2015

€€€€€ hence my comment about Backwoods Miniatures stuff. The Ballymena & Larne had several locos of almost identical design to the IOM.

The Oxford die cast is a toy, and unpowered. While it looks well as such, it will very probably look very crude and toylike beside "proper" models, certainly those of Swiss, Austrian or German origin. It's made as a display item and may not be suitable for conversion to powered, and is not necessarily built to a recognised model scale.

You can get proper kits of IOM engines. This would be money better spent.

Edited December 9, 2015 by jhb171achill

Maitland · December 9, 2015

Bit late in on this, but there are a small number of kits available for 3mm scale (16.5mm gauge for 5'3", 9mm for 3') from Worsley Works, though these are only "scratch aid", i.e. bare flat etchings, find your own detailing and chassis.

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/3mm/3mm_Irish_Standard_Gauge.htm

Also this chap has a number of Irish 3D printed body shells in 3mm and N:

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/valvedesign?s=0#more-products

Mayner · December 9, 2015

^^ I have decided, I have decided that I'm going use TT/HOm for the narrow gauge branch line & 00 guage for the the mainline & dual gauge for the branch line to depot. The whole idea of this model railway is to be realistic but at the same time be fictional

I hope to scratch build a body for the doner locomotive chasia on eBay to make it look close or just like IOMR No.21 [ATTACH=CONFIG]21629[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]21630[/ATTACH]

.

But thanks for the help & advice anyways.

Hi Tony

I had to do a double take when I saw the photo of diesel No21,I did not realise the IOMR had an American diesel .

No 21 seems to be based on a standard General Electric (GE)design, GE built a number of 3' gauge end cab units of similar size in the 1950s an interesting might have been if CIE, the Donegal or IOMR had gone shopping for American 3' diesels in the 1950s.

[video=youtube;Xuyi2N-v7RA]

tonybonneyba · December 9, 2015

John, that loco looks wonders, if only it was a EMD (being checky) ..... I only discovered about No.21 in 2014 when a user posted a photo of her in the FB group, Irish Railways Past & Present, claiming it was like a baby of a baby GM (141s). I went to the IOM in August with mum to see the loco, but because of her being a brand new loco & having teething problems, I was denied access (no members of public had access).

Built by: Motive Power & Equipment Solutions, Inc.(MP&ES) of Greenville, South Carolina, United State.

The loco boasts a Cummings QSX15 550HP Diesel Engine connected to a 480 3Phase Alternator and powering four (4) DC 250 HP Traction Motors and features twin cabs either end with central driver seats with narrow central body work.

http://www.trainsofmann.com/section425137.html#sthash.ye8MmTuz.dpuf

Those IOMR 1:76 locomotives for TT guage track can be bought here:

https://iomrailways.ticketsolve.com/products?tag=transport&TSLVq=2ab5f49c-e869-4358-8236-b1471305aada&TSLVp=21c98849-999a-4db8-896f-db9257992a9b&TSLVts=1449692558&TSLVc=ticketsolve&TSLVe=iomrailways&TSLVrt=Safetynet&TSLVh=882e84d9cfe871a3517d025be71daee8

Post age is high, but I'm guessing it maybe worth it, especially if you add a motor to them

Edited December 9, 2015 by tonybonneyba

tonybonneyba · December 9, 2015

LINK FIX:

Those IOMR 1:76 locomotives which run on TT guage track can be bought here, as they where released this week....

https://www.gov.im/categories/travel-traffic-and-motoring/bus-and-rail/heritage-railways/shop/

The postage is high, but worth it, especially if you have a spare 1:76 motor kicking about.... (Which I havnt done as of yet)

Glenderg · December 9, 2015

Can a mod change the thread spelling to "Gauge" please. It's upsetting me.

Horsetan · December 9, 2015

LINK FIX:

Those IOMR 1:76 locomotives which run on TT guage track can be bought here, as they where released this week....

https://www.gov.im/categories/travel-traffic-and-motoring/bus-and-rail/heritage-railways/shop/

The postage is high, but worth it, especially if you have a spare 1:76 motor kicking about.... (Which I havnt done as of yet)

Let's hope that the boiler / firebox is not a solid casting all the way through! Could be a problem hollowing out enough space to fit a motor.

tonybonneyba · December 9, 2015

Can a mod change the thread spelling to "Gauge" please. It's upsetting me.

Ah bother, not my bad spelling again, sorry!

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