livery of laminates

[Frank_the_ piper]

Hi,

 

I have a question regarding the laminate coaches built in the 50s: Were any of them painted in silver or did they wear only green and later black & tan?

If the silver livery existed - any pics availible?

 

Regards, Frank

[UP6936]

There was a silver livery alright, but if I may be a tad pedantic, it's not accurate to state that carriages where painted in it. They were in fact finished in bare metal. The diesel locos that accompanied were however painted in their iteration of silver.

[DiveController]

Yes, there are. Without getting into a discussion of what was built using traditional wooden framed building techniques and what were prefabricated laminates, some of the 1950s stock were turned out in the 'silver' livery along with the A and C class locomotives, the class leaders of the B, E, G classes and the 4w luggage vans. For certain there is photographic evidence of one or more 1429 series 7-compartment standard coaches in silver and some others if I recall. 'Unfortunately', I'm not at home and cannot access my iMac as I physically disconnected it having been hit by lighting last month

 

Some indirect evidence of a silver composite laminate on John's post here

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/1367-Irish-Railway-News-1957-60?p=20242&highlight=Silver+livery+coach#post20242

Silver 4w Luggage 'Hooded' Van

 

There's a photo of a laminate on the site somewhere, can't find it

 

Good old Ernie,

The odd man out is unquestionably a 1429 series coach

The rest are green however. The silver would have been most common from 1955-1960ish only

Edited October 24, 2016 by DiveController

[Garfield]

Silver 4w Luggage 'Hooded' Van

 

UP6936 is correct, the 'silver' finish on the coaching stock, including the van in that photo, isn't paint. It's the bare sheet metal.

 

Edit: Apologies, mis-read your post. I see you're just showing pics of the finish and not contesting UP's explanation. Oops!

Edited October 24, 2016 by Garfield

[jhb171achill]

As others have correctly stated, the "livery" was better described as "NO livery", due to the absence of any paint! Bogies, wheels, couplings, gangways and roofs were also unpainted, though photographs often APPEAR to show a darker or grey roof, but this is due entirely to exhaust fumes, as on covered vans.

 

The whole idea was to save money through not having to buy paint (!) but it looked shabby and dirty after only a very short time, and the green came back quite soon. Having said that, "silver" vehicles were to be seen into the 1960s, with a few painted directly from that to black'n'tan without seeing the intermediate green.

 

No "flying snails" were affixed to unpainted stock, nor anything at all bar the class number on the door, and the running number. These were usually in RED, not green. I have heard it suggested that some might have been lettered in green, but have yet to see any evidence of this. It's well known that some memories can play tricks about accurate colour - ask any policeman who has ever had to ask witnesses the colour of a getaway car!

[DiveController]

UP6936 is correct, the 'silver' finish on the coaching stock, including the van in that photo, isn't paint. It's the bare sheet metal.

 

Edit: Apologies, mis-read your post. I see you're just showing pics of the finish and not contesting UP's explanation. Oops!

Oh, I see how that might have occurred. No problem. If anyone has photos of any coaches in silver livery, would also appreciate if you could post on here please

[DiveController]

[Railer]

 

Absolutely amazing collection of photos there. Some amount of history too.

[Frank_the_ piper]

Hi,

 

many thanks for all the information.

I like to add another questions: What's about the 2axle post vans? Did they also show the bare metal colour? Page 30 of Barry Carse's book on the Metro-Vicks seems to show a post van in silver (in the very right corner of the picture).

 

Frank

[DiveController]

Don't know the photo. I think I ordered a copy of the book. I'll have a look when I get back to the US

[John-r]

Sorry to take this slightly off topic, anyone any idea where I can obtain a copy off

Irish metro Vick diesels, I tryed at the show and usual places. Any help appreciated .

Thanks John.

[DiveController]

Sorry, I think I had to get mine on the 'Bay a few months back

[DiveController]

What's about the 2axle post vans? Did they also show the bare metal colour? Page 30 of Barry Carse's book on the Metro-Vicks seems to show a post van in silver (in the very right corner of the picture).

 

Frank

Had a quick look and that's definitely a 4w PO sorting van. There were only about 10, (2962-2971) built c. 1957/8, and conceivably could have been turned out in the livery of the day, 'silver'. The silver livery would have been introduced on the A class as early as 1955, some 1429 series coaches c. 1956 and C class as late as 1958. The photo in Irish Metro-Vick Diesels is taken in 1960 which would fit that timeframe with the accompanying C class newly turned out in lighter green.

All the other photos of the 4w PO sorting vans that I have seen have been in Black and Tan which would have been introduced about 1961. There are some photos of other 4w vans e.g. 4w HLV turned out in green but unsure if I have seen green 4w sorting vans (except bogies TPOs), so any silver ones repainted directly into B'n'T, one supposes.

That's a great find, Frank!

Edited November 4, 2016 by DiveController
Date correction

[DiveController]

Sorry to take this slightly off topic, anyone any idea where I can obtain a copy off

Irish metro Vick diesels, I tryed at the show and usual places. Any help appreciated .

Thanks John.

Glad you got your hands on a copy

 

 

CIE E407 at Kingsbridge 5/9/62 with a silver 4w PO sorting van (mostly out of the shot unfortunately)

https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/search.htm?company=IRISH+RAILWAYS+%28CIE%29&subtype=1&class=&location=&srch=&page=0

[jhb171achill]

I couldn't swear to it, but while green tin vans were definitely to be seen, I'm unaware of ever seeing a PO 4w van in green - either in real life or in any record.

[Garfield]

I couldn't swear to it, but while green tin vans were definitely to be seen, I'm unaware of ever seeing a PO 4w van in green - either in real life or in any record.

 

JB, I've a feeling there's a photo of a C class shunting a green four-wheel postal van at Sligo in Tom Ferris' 'Irish Railways in Colour'. I don't have the book to hand, though...

[jhb171achill]

Must have a look - it IS certainly possible. The lighter green spanned 1955-63 and was concurrent with unpainted silver.

[DiveController]

JB, I've a feeling there's a photo of a C class shunting a green four-wheel postal van at Sligo in Tom Ferris' 'Irish Railways in Colour'. I don't have the book to hand, though...

The only thing I could see was a steamer shunting a vintage green ex-MGWR 6w postal van at Sligo in 1956, followed by a luggage van in silver . I'll have 'A Second Glance' tomorrow and look for it

[DiveController]

Apparently the then new Park Royal coaches were turned out in 'silver' for a time. Michael Baker's book appears to show a pair of "10' 2" wide unpainted suburban Park Royals" on a Dublin suburban working from Dun Laoghaire in 1956

(Railways Past & present Dublin p34)

Edited November 25, 2016 by DiveController

[BSGSV]

Apparently the then new Park Royal coaches were turned out in 'silver' for a time. Michael Baker's book appears to show a pair of "10' 2" wide unpainted suburban Park Royals" on a Dublin suburban working from Dun Laoghaire in 1956

(Railways Past & present Dublin p34)

 

I'm afraid you're being misled by the incorrect caption. Those are CIE Inchicore built suburban compos.

[jhb171achill]

I'd need to check but I'm pretty certain that all Park Royals entered service in green.

[DiveController]

I'm afraid you're being misled by the incorrect caption. Those are CIE Inchicore built suburban compos.

I'm glad you confirmed that as I could not see the fairly distinctive features of the Park Royals (granted, it's not a great photo). Would most of the composites and standards turned out in that post-1955 era at Inchicore have been turned out in silver. Mostly I have seen these in photos in green

 

I'd need to check but I'm pretty certain that all Park Royals entered service in green.

That makes perfect sense now given the typo in the book

[jhb171achill]

New laminate coaches and tin vans turned out around 1955-8 were initially unpainted. However, they weathered very badly almost immediately, so by 1959 they were being painted green like everything else. Coaches started being painted black'n'tan in early 1963, after a few experimental ones in '62.

[DiveController]

New laminate coaches and tin vans turned out around 1955-8 were initially unpainted. However, they weathered very badly almost immediately, so by 1959 they were being painted green like everything else. Coaches started being painted black'n'tan in early 1963, after a few experimental ones in '62.

If anyone has any photos to post or refer to, would you please post? I think we've come full circle since post #1:)

[BSGSV]

Regarding "silver" coaches, my information is that the following were involved:

Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, in unpainted aluminium. 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that repaints in green started in 1958. Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958.

Coaches before and after were in shades of green.

[DiveController]

Excellent, GSV. Just what I wanted to know. Superb information and thank you!

[flange lubricator]

1429-1448 laminate coach

 

Hope this helps

Edited November 30, 2016 by flange lubricator

[DiveController]

Yes, flange, very much so. I knew there was a shot of a 1429- somewhere floating about. Thanks for that.

I'd be really interested to see a photo of one of the other composites or 13xx standards if they exist

[Mayner]

1429-1448 laminate coach

 

Hope this helps

 

The silver would have been a striking livery if they had found a means of preventing the metal tarnishing. Even unpainted stainless steel stock tends to look fairly rough in close up. The suburban composites 2162-2171 had a short life and were converted into Brake Standards 1914-1923 in 1970 .

 

The 64 seat Laminate Standards 1449-1496 appeared in green from the start. Worsley Works do a set of brass parts for the 1449-11496 Standards & 1909-1913 Brake Standards

[flange lubricator]

The picture is from a book called Bulleid last giant of steam by Sean Day Lewis last published 1968 its has a good section on Ireland , the picture is credited to John Glick who was like Bulleid's assistant I think..

 

The numbers '2' on the coach doors would have been in red, the 1429 -48 coaches were 70 seaters 3=2 seating no tables and were often called maze coaches due to the layout of the vestibule at each end.

[jhb171achill]

Click seemed to follow Bullied wherever he went, though I think I heard one time that officially, strictly speaking, he wasn't actually an assistant!

 

When I was researching in the National Railway Museum (UK) in York a few years ago, I came across a treasure trove of his photos of blow-by-blow step-by-step construction of the turf burner. A fascinating archive, showing every stage if its construction and good close ups of many of its internal gubbins, and the bogies, before it was all put together to create the greatest white elephant ever to run on Irish rails!

 

I heard one time that Bullied did not take kindly to criticism, and when it was pointed out to him that the completed thing did not perform as expected - as he claimed it would - his retort to the men in Inchicore was "Well, FIX it!"