GNR(i) Wagons

[GNRi1959]

Just found some old negatives, none of them labelled but I scanned so anyone with knowledge can label them

[Kirley]

The first one might be 2518 20 ton Guinness Van (Whitehead?)

The second one possibly a GNRI Cattle Van of which Provincial Wagons do excellent kits.

504 is a 20 ton Guinness Grain van, (Whitehead?)

[Richard EH]

The first one might be 2518 20 ton Guinness Van (Whitehead?)

The second one possibly a GNRI Cattle Van of which Provincial Wagons do excellent kits.

504 is a 20 ton Guinness Grain van, (Whitehead?)

 

It looks to me as though the first and last photos are of the same wagon(504?).

 

Bet that cattle wagon had, um, a powerful aroma!

 

Many thanks for sharing.

 

Cheers for Now.

 

Richard.

[Dunluce Castle]

Whitehead as far as I'm aware had 2 GNR Guinness wagons, I may be wrong but didn't they scrap one and salvage parts from it to retore the other in the future?

[jhb171achill]

Whitehead as far as I'm aware had 2 GNR Guinness wagons, I may be wrong but didn't they scrap one and salvage parts from it to retore the other in the future?

 

 

Correct, Nelson. The scrapped one was rotten throughout and if not scrapped was on the verge of disintegrating.

[Dunluce Castle]

Not scrapped yet according to the website, http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/carriages/wagons.html

[jhb171achill]

As good as.... the dismantled parts include much completely rotten material which can't be used again.

[minister_for_hardship]

Were the Guinness ones de facto Private Owner wagons?

[Dhu Varren]

Great pics Tony, keep them coming. I agree with Richard, the grain wagons look like one and the same.

 

The picture of the cattle wagon is a reverse image. When reversed, G N is clearly visible top left, and a number, possibly 2326, top right.

 

I have drawings for both these wagons. If anyone wants a copy, send me a PM.

[jhb171achill]

Were the Guinness ones de facto Private Owner wagons?

 

No, they were fully GNR owned, though yes, "de facto" used only for Guinness traffic as far as is known.

 

When modelling the past, we see numerous British Hornby or Bachmann models of private owner wagons. If modelling Irish prototypes, it must be remembered if accuracy is wished for, that private owner wagons in Ireland were very rare indeed, and many extremely short lived; also, they tended to operate over one specific route, not in general goods trains all over the place. Example: Downshire wagons - Dundrum (Co Down) to Belfast only. You wouldn't get one of these, for example, in Enniskillen, Mullingar or West Cork, and there would be no Guinness grain vans on the NCC!

[DiveController]

Did vans actually transport Guinness or grain for the manufacturing process ... or began life in a different role and then transitioned to conveying the black stuff itself?

Nice photos, Tony. Always interesting to see old rolling stock

[Dhu Varren]

Did vans actually transport Guinness or grain for the manufacturing process ... or began life in a different role and then transitioned to conveying the black stuff itself?

Nice photos, Tony. Always interesting to see old rolling stock

 

According to the drawing I have, five 'Guinness' wagons were converted to 'loose grain wagons' in 1938. Two of these were converted back for 'ordinary' traffic in 1942, one of which was 2518, the second wagon at Whitehead. This description would suggest the vans could have been originally used for transporting the black stuff, but more likely for transporting bagged grain.

The drawing also shows three roof hatches, presumably for loading loose grain, and hopper like sloping floors inside, for discharging the grain via chutes attached to the fixtures on the sides, four on one side and two on the other, as shown in the photos.

As 504 has opening doors on one side only in the pictures, it must have ceased to be used as a loose grain wagon later in life as it is not one of the two 1942 reconversions. The drawing shows a ladder on both sides, with an internal ladder leading down from the centre roof hatch.

[DiveController]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26403[/ATTACH]

That's seems like very reliable information , David. You can just make out the front and middle roof hatches on the photo. The doors look like a pretty flimsy modification.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26405[/ATTACH]

I had noticed the hatches on the sides. Seems like the wagon would have appeared like this with ladders on both sides initially. Certainly the 'GN' is on the 2 and 5th panels on each side with 'Guinness' (in a different font/size/position) applied with the addition of the doors.

 

 

Would the grain have been discharged into bags or some sort of light truck or more like a trackside hopper on elevated track?

Not a bad little wagon and very different from hopper styled wagons in more recent times.

Edited January 3, 2017 by DiveController

[Mayner]

That's seems like very reliable information , David. You can just make out the front and middle roof hatches on the photo. The doors look like a pretty flimsy modification.

 

 

 

Would the grain have been discharged into bags or some sort of light truck or more like a trackside hopper on elevated track?

Not a bad little wagon and very different from hopper styled wagons in more recent times.

 

There is a photo in one of the Ian Allen Irish Railway Pictorial Albums of one of these wagons discharging grain from an elevated siding into a large bulk grain truck in Omagh goods yard.

 

Difficult to describe the siding appears to be supported by a massive retaining wall that allowed trucks to draw alongside to load, which helps explain the side chutes rather than the more common bottom doors used with grain wagons

 

Perhaps Tony may have a photo of this part of the yard.

[GNRi1959]

There is a photo in one of the Ian Allen Irish Railway Pictorial Albums of one of these wagons discharging grain from an elevated siding into a large bulk grain truck in Omagh goods yard.

 

Difficult to describe the siding appears to be supported by a massive retaining wall that allowed trucks to draw alongside to load, which helps explain the side chutes rather than the more common bottom doors used with grain wagons

 

Perhaps Tony may have a photo of this part of the yard.

 

Although I have photographs of the Goods Yard I have nothing to show the shutes in operation from the yard above. The retaining wall, as you describe it, still exists today and shutes were used from the grain store above to fill the wagons below. This all changed when the UTA took over and the grain store became a yard for the UTA and was full of parked buses.

[DiveController]

Very interesting. Thanks, John and Tony for posting. If anyone knows the exact reference John is referring to, could you please post? Thanks

[GNRi1959]

Here is a picture I found in my library, cannot remember the source. This shows the Goods Yard, post UTA with the grain store on a higher level now being used for their buses. The siding to the left was used originally for grain and the shutes are no longer visible.

[DiveController]

THat's a very interesting photos which just oozes athmosphere. The grain van you posted would have been loaded from the store through the three roof vents. It seems there was also an elevated siding for unloading grain according to Mayner.

[GNRi1959]

I was told the shuts were hung down the outside of the high retaining wall and placed into wagons, maybe I'm wrong. However, the last shunter who worked Omagh, Joe McGrew is a good friend of mine and I see him quite a lot. I was thinking of interviewing him on camera on his memories of the shunting operations at Omagh and for some knowledge on the make up of the wagons he worked.

[DiveController]

I'm sure that's correct, Tony. I don't know enough of the grain industry to have an insight into the workings. While there are only two distilleries that I am aware of in Ireland, there would have been a score of them in the last century. I'm not sure if the grain was destined for the bakeries locally, adjacent towns or "for a more divine purpose"

 

However, the last shunter who worked Omagh, Joe McGrew is a good friend of mine and I see him quite a lot. I was thinking of interviewing him on camera on his memories of the shunting operations at Omagh and for some knowledge on the make up of the wagons he worked.

I enjoy these types of interviews which are invaluable as times continues to pass

Edited January 6, 2017 by DiveController

[Mayner]

I was told the shuts were hung down the outside of the high retaining wall and placed into wagons, maybe I'm wrong. However, the last shunter who worked Omagh, Joe McGrew is a good friend of mine and I see him quite a lot. I was thinking of interviewing him on camera on his memories of the shunting operations at Omagh and for some knowledge on the make up of the wagons he worked.

 

 

Found it !

 

 

Photo was by the late Des Coakham

 

The truck was said to be owned by Scotts the local millers.

 

 

The load could well be animal feed rather than wheat for milling, the legend "Excelsior Feeds"is just about visible on the truck

[Dhu Varren]

Found it !

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26465[/ATTACH]

 

Photo was by the late Des Coakham

 

The truck was said to be owned by Scotts the local millers.

 

 

The load could well be animal feed rather than wheat for milling, the legend "Excelsior Feeds" is just about visible on the truck

 

Excellent picture John. I was wondering what the chutes looked like having seen them represented on the drawing.

I note it also says 'Grain in Bulk for Excelsior Feeds' on the truck.

Looks like the GNR was into the carriage of bulk grain for anyone, and not just Guinness.

I seem to remember seeing four wheeled bulk grain wagons on the LPHC lines in Derry, either discharging grain, or loading grain at a grain warehouse at the docks. There was also an overhead conveyor between the warehouse and docked ships. Again, I don't remember which way the grain was going.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Dhu Varren

[Dhu Varren]

Looking closer at the picture of wagons discharging grain, it looks like they are four wheeled bulk grain wagons. The one nearest the camera certainly is.

[Kirley]

Excellent picture, thanks for retrieving that one John.

[GNRi1959]

Very interest picture indeed. Scotts Mill had a large 'Excelsior Feeds' sign on top of your gain silo's at their site on Mountjoy Road, Omagh. Were these wagons parked permanently in-situ to take advantage of their 'shutes' because it looks like the wagons are sited high above the Goods Yards in the old grain store.

[Mike258747]

I don't think that the wagons were there permanently but shunted in as required. This area is now the site of the Fold Housing complex. Access to the area was down quite a steep hill and is now the entrance drive to the Fold.

[GNRi1959]

Yes, Mike you are correct. The exact location is indeed down the entrance at the Fold Housing complex. There was a siding there which was used as a 'cattle siding' at one time and indeed there were cattle pens.

[GNRi1959]

I have zoomed into an aerial shot of Omagh Station and although slightly fuzzy you can clearly see two points of possibility where the wagons could have been loaded. In the central part and upper right of shot. Both show wagons parked there.

 

[Dhu Varren]

I have zoomed into an aerial shot of Omagh Station and although slightly fuzzy you can clearly see two points of possibility where the wagons could have been loaded. In the central part and upper right of shot. Both show wagons parked there.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26470[/ATTACH]

 

 

I would say that the grain wagons in the picture being unloaded are in the siding in the upper right of this shot. This is due to being able to see a number of other wagons beyond the unloading wagons and beyond a low building. These wagons would not be as visible, if at all, were the unloading wagons standing in the siding in the central part of the shot.

[Mike258747]

Although Mayners photo may look antiquated to our eyes now, only a few years earlier the feed was transported from the station to Scotts mill in sacks using teams of horses drawing four wheeled carts. Made Omagh look (and smell) like a Wild West town!!

[DiveController]

Any year on Mayner's photo by Des Coakham?

[MikeO]

Just to add a little to the issue of grain wagons, on Page 66 of Desmond Coakhams Book Irish Broad Gauge Carriages, there is a black and white photo of a UTA "W" van which is coupled to a GNR wagon. Only part of the wagon is in view but it has a sign attached to it which seems to be red and white (top half red) with the name Excelsior Feeds in the red part. There is some indistinct wording on the white part, possibly a strap line. The photo is dated 29th April 1961. While the wagon could be a bulk grain wagon, I thought it might be a general purpose covered wagon used for bagged grain, in this case for animal feed. The presence of the sign suggests that the wagon carried grain for Excelsior Feeds on a regular basis.

Edited January 9, 2017 by MikeO

[jhb171achill]

Very interesting.....any way of scanning the pic here? Page 66 in my copy has a pic of a horse box, a carriage truck and the Fintona tram.....

Edited January 9, 2017 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Ah! It's page 64.

 

You're right about the sign - but how do you know it's red and white in a b/w photo? :-)j

[Dhu Varren]

The picture is actually on page 64. The wagon is, in fact, a 4 wheel version of the Guinness loose grain bogie vans at the start of this thread. Just below the Excelsior sign is an unloading hatch with operating lever. On of these levers can just be made out in the picture posted earlier by Mayner on P21 of this thread at the other end of a similar van.