CIE/IR Mk2D formations.

[Railer]

Just wondering on the Mk2D formations they ran in as introduced and in general.

I know the Mk3s were EGV+First+Restaurant+Standards. 

From pictures I have seen the Mk2Ds were EGV+First+Composite+Restaurant+Standards in the early days. 13 piece specials were 11 whatever sandwiched between 2 EGVs.

Later on EGV+First+Restaurant+ mix of Composites and Standards.

In the twilight years on the Sligo line, EGV+Restaurant+ mix of Composites and Standards.

Was there are general rule of just use whatever?

[BSGSV]

Regarding early working, it appeared that rakes were intoduced as they got stock available. As the carriages were fitted out and painted, so they came into the usuable pool. One early set was as small as an EGV, Compo, Buffet and two standards on the evening Heuston-Tralee. The original intention seems to have been altered, given the modification of 5 Compos to Standards very quickly. The 1973 timetable, which was notable for more trains than ever, with two trains from Dublin to provincial destinations in the evenings, and two up the morning, one of the pair being fast by omitting smaller station stops. For the commencement of that timetable, 10 sets appear to have been made up, EGV, First or Compo, Buffet and 4 Standards. 8 sets were in use, four on links Dublin-Cork, which had firsts, and the other four did links which included the "best" train from Waterford, Tralee, Limerick and Galway to Dublin in the morning and down in the evening. Subsequent timetables saw retrenchment on the number of trains, but there was also growing passenger numbers so by the end of the 1970's, bigger sets were needed, which reduced the number of sets in use. Clearly there's a chunk of the 70's rather hazily covered there, which someone else might have better knowledge of. Messrs Carse and Gray did a carriage survey about 1980 for the IRRS Journal, and I'll see what was there later.

[BSGSV]

Apologies for the delay in coming back with the IRRS Journal info.

Messrs. Carse and Gray did their survey on Friday 9th May 1980. Noted that Gen Van 5611 had been destroyed by fire in August 1979, otherwise all vehicles intact. 5406 was the current State Coach, but 5408 was being converted to same. Aside from these, 5214 was idle at Connolly, curious as no AC stock was rostered at that time to use the station. Not seen were 5153, 5155, 5208, 5215, 5217, 5227, 5231, 5233, 5402, 5405, some of which would have been under overhaul or getting attention in Inchicore.

Just six sets were out: EGV + 8 on the link including the 07:40 Cork - Heuston, EGV + 9 on the link including 17:30 Heuston - Cork, EGV + 8 on the link including the 18:25 Heuston - Tralee, EGV + 8 on the link including the 17:50 Heuston - Limerick, EGV + 7 on the link including the 18:10 Heuston - Waterford, EGV + 9 on the link including the 18:35 Heuston - Galway.

Despite the six sets being out above, in their notes they say that usually just five sets would be in daily use, with a sixth perhaps appearing ay busy periods and composed of some of several of the surplus compos and buffets. They cite the 10:30 Heuston - Tralee of 9th August as an example, 160 + 181 + EGV + 6, the six including three buffets and one compo and having over 350 passengers! 

[connollystn]

Hi Railer,

I remember the latter days of locomotive hauled trains on the Sligo line. The former 1st class coaches had been converted to standard class. If my memory serves me correctly some of the composite coaches were first/standard class, again, all converted to standard class. I recall there being two restaurant coaches running in a set - largely due to the lack of availability of passenger stock.

Regards,

ConnollyStn

[Railer]

Managed to dig up bits myself in the mean time.

Example below was a Belfast service in 1976

B174 + 5228,5231,5208,5406,5101,5608.

In the final days of Mk2D sets below:

5602 5403 5102 5159 5106 5203 5221 (28/1/08 1750 ex Heuston)

5610 5208 5410 5155 5156 5152 5101 (30/1/08 1750 ex Heuston)

 

[Railer]

As things got tight in January 2008 as scrapping of Mk2D began in full swing.

5610-5212-5205-5211-5236-5221-5154. This was an evening Limerick service on 08/01/08 with no 54xx buffet coach as there was none free.

 

On the 10/01/08

13.25 Limerick: 5602 5403 5102 5159 5106 5203

17.10 Athlone: 5610 5212 5205 5211 5236 5221 5154

17.50 Galway: 5607 5410 5155 5156 5152 5101

By the end of January there were only 2 sets in service and were regularly a 8 and 9 piece.

5607 5208 5219 5410 5155 5156 5152 5101 5236 this set was noted being hauled by 085 on a evening service ex Heuston.

 

[hexagon789]

On 7/16/2018 at 10:04 AM, BSGSV said:

Apologies for the delay in coming back with the IRRS Journal info.

Messrs. Carse and Gray did their survey on Friday 9th May 1980. Noted that Gen Van 5611 had been destroyed by fire in August 1979, otherwise all vehicles intact. 5406 was the current State Coach, but 5408 was being converted to same. Aside from these, 5214 was idle at Connolly, curious as no AC stock was rostered at that time to use the station. Not seen were 5153, 5155, 5208, 5215, 5217, 5227, 5231, 5233, 5402, 5405, some of which would have been under overhaul or getting attention in Inchicore.

Just six sets were out: EGV + 8 on the link including the 07:40 Cork - Heuston, EGV + 9 on the link including 17:30 Heuston - Cork, EGV + 8 on the link including the 18:25 Heuston - Tralee, EGV + 8 on the link including the 17:50 Heuston - Limerick, EGV + 7 on the link including the 18:10 Heuston - Waterford, EGV + 9 on the link including the 18:35 Heuston - Galway.

Despite the six sets being out above, in their notes they say that usually just five sets would be in daily use, with a sixth perhaps appearing ay busy periods and composed of some of several of the surplus compos and buffets. They cite the 10:30 Heuston - Tralee of 9th August as an example, 160 + 181 + EGV + 6, the six including three buffets and one compo and having over 350 passengers! 

 

Hi BSGSV, I don't suppose Carse and Gray noted the individual vehicles in each of the Mk2 rakes in their survey?

I would obtain the relevant journal myself to find out but that's sadly not practical at present of course. 

Having a list of exactly how those six sets were made up if it's available would very extremely useful for my layout project as I'm looking to model the early-1980s and plan to make Mk2 sets a big feature of that so I would dearly love to have as prototypically accurate formations for this period as possible. 

Thanks.

 

[iarnrod]

Hopefully, Paddy Murphy might do some Mk.2's in IR livery after the 121's. 

I have that IRRS journal and can take a photo of that article and send them to you in a day or two if that helps. Just have to dig it out. 

[hexagon789]

42 minutes ago, iarnrod said:

Hopefully, Paddy Murphy might do some Mk.2's in IR livery after the 121's. 

 

While very welcome I'd be looking for more in Supertrain!

 

43 minutes ago, iarnrod said:

I have that IRRS journal and can take a photo of that article and send them to you in a day or two if that helps. Just have to dig it out. 

That would be great and most helpful iarnrod, thanks.

[BSGSV]

18 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

Hi BSGSV, I don't suppose Carse and Gray noted the individual vehicles in each of the Mk2 rakes in their survey?

 

I'm afraid the article does not include the specific vehicles involved.

[jhb171achill]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:40 AM, connollystn said:

............... I recall there being two restaurant coaches running in a set - largely due to the lack of availability of passenger stock.

Regards,

ConnollyStn

At that time, catering vehicles with serving hatches locked up were even regular features on Dundalk - Dublin locals. I travelled in one such - not exactly sure of when, but I'd say about 1987/9. And yes, lack of availability of anything with seats in it was the reason.

[Mayner]

The Connolly-Sligo and Connolly-Rosslare intercity sets complete with buffet vars were regularly rostered on early morning Connolly-Maynooth suburban workings during the carriage shortage of the 80s & early 90s. 

[hexagon789]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:16 PM, BSGSV said:

I'm afraid the article does not include the specific vehicles involved.

Thanks anyway, BSGSV - it was worth a try. Iarnrod was kind enough to scan the article for me and it's definitely helped in that I have a far clearer picture of how everything was utilised anyway.

 

On 6/2/2020 at 3:31 PM, jhb171achill said:

At that time, catering vehicles with serving hatches locked up were even regular features on Dundalk - Dublin locals. I travelled in one such - not exactly sure of when, but I'd say about 1987/9. And yes, lack of availability of anything with seats in it was the reason.

Seems to have happened with Mk3 sets as well and as the Journal article alluded to above states there were even instances of three diners being present in Mk2 sets.

 

13 hours ago, Mayner said:

The Connolly-Sligo and Connolly-Rosslare intercity sets complete with buffet vars were regularly rostered on early morning Connolly-Maynooth suburban workings during the carriage shortage of the 80s & early 90s. 

I think they also appeared on the odd occasion on Cork-Tralee locals, I'm sure I've seen a flickr of one being used as such.

 

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Seems to have happened with Mk3 sets as well and as the Journal article alluded to above states there were even instances of three diners being present in Mk2 sets.

THREE!!! Wow - that was certainly scraping the barrel!

[hexagon789]

13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

THREE!!! Wow - that was certainly scraping the barrel!

Two Small GMs on EGV+6, three of the "6" being diners, one composite and presumably two standards. Either the composite was declassified or it was one of the ex-composites converted to all standard in 1973 as the 1030 Hueston-Tralee was Standard only according to the timetable.

 

I have a few examples of sets from the 1980s, the immediate pre-Mk3 period being that which I'm interested in but photos hardly ever show full rakes clearly.

Effectively I'm asking if there was a set rule after the original 1973 set-up was changed, with only five longer sets of EGV+7-9 being made up, and how these longer sets were generally formed.

 

If it interests anyone else I can list a few formations from 1973 to the mid-190s gleaned from photos but only coach types no numbers.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

.........Effectively I'm asking if there was a set rule after the original 1973 set-up was changed, with only five longer sets of EGV+7-9 being made up, and how these longer sets were generally formed.

If it interests anyone else I can list a few formations from 1973 to the mid-190s gleaned from photos but only coach types no numbers.

If we go back that far, there was absolutely no set way of making up train formations as such. Even the new Mk 2 sets, which were the first to be standard trains of only one vehicle type, could vary. The sort of standard sets of today simply weren't the thing at all.

Non Mk 2 sets were a total mix, as the inclusion of off-duty dining cars illustrates. Mixtures of Cravens, Park Royals and all manner of different variations of laminates - some in original condition, others maybe rebuilt substantially more than once in only 15 years, were on all types of services.

For the modeller, the good thing is that variety was the norm.

[hexagon789]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If we go back that far, there was absolutely no set way of making up train formations as such. Even the new Mk 2 sets, which were the first to be standard trains of only one vehicle type, could vary. The sort of standard sets of today simply weren't the thing at all.

Non Mk 2 sets were a total mix, as the inclusion of off-duty dining cars illustrates. Mixtures of Cravens, Park Royals and all manner of different variations of laminates - some in original condition, others maybe rebuilt substantially more than once in only 15 years, were on all types of services.

For the modeller, the good thing is that variety was the norm.

 

I appreciate that things weren't fixed jhb, I'm more looking for a pattern with the AC sets. Obviously the pattern for 1973 is well documented, sets being EGV+1st or Compo+Diner+4 Stds but when sets became longer from the late-1970s that pattern obviously changed.

As the Journal article states there were normally five sets made up in 1980, a sixth at busy periods. This arrangement produced lots of spare EGVs, diners and compos. From photos of the early 1980s, sets seem to have always been EGV+1st+Diner+Stds with some stds being composites either declassified or those converted I can't tell.

I think what I'm trying to ask is that for modelling the early 1980s was it by this point normal for ALL of the 5 normal sets in traffic to have a full first with the composites all now being used as spares? The fact that the article says all six 1sts were in traffic seems to lend some credence to this theory?

I can find only one photo on Flickr with a set having a compo between EGV and diner in the early 1980s, a bank holiday in 1983, but there doesn't appear to be first class markings on the vehicle and the set looks to be a hotchpotch so presumably the sixth "spare" set.

This is one of the reasons why I'd hoped for a record of coaches in rakes from this period, not to try and assume a fixed arrangement of sets but rather to try and appreciate the method of working to arrange sets that would be prototypically accurate. Hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from now?

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I appreciate that things weren't fixed jhb, I'm more looking for a pattern with the AC sets. Obviously the pattern for 1973 is well documented, sets being EGV+1st or Compo+Diner+4 Stds but when sets became longer from the late-1970s that pattern obviously changed.

As the Journal article states there were normally five sets made up in 1980, a sixth at busy periods. This arrangement produced lots of spare EGVs, diners and compos. From photos of the early 1980s, sets seem to have always been EGV+1st+Diner+Stds with some stds being composites either declassified or those converted I can't tell.

I think what I'm trying to ask is that for modelling the early 1980s was it by this point normal for ALL of the 5 normal sets in traffic to have a full first with the composites all now being used as spares? The fact that the article says all six 1sts were in traffic seems to lend some credence to this theory?

I can find only one photo on Flickr with a set having a compo between EGV and diner in the early 1980s, a bank holiday in 1983, but there doesn't appear to be first class markings on the vehicle and the set looks to be a hotchpotch so presumably the sixth "spare" set.

This is one of the reasons why I'd hoped for a record of coaches in rakes from this period, not to try and assume a fixed arrangement of sets but rather to try and appreciate the method of working to arrange sets that would be prototypically accurate. Hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from now?

Absolutely, Hexagon, I get you now; apologies for misunderstanding.

While I have no records of what you are looking for, I may be able to dig something up. I’ll make a couple of phone calls tonight.

Personally, though, I certainly recall catering vehicles in or near the middle of formations on at least some occasions when I travelled in the summers of 79, 80 & 81.

[hexagon789]

On 6/4/2020 at 2:14 PM, jhb171achill said:

Absolutely, Hexagon, I get you now; apologies for misunderstanding.

 

No problem, it was trying to convey my exact meaning the first time but I think we're on the same page now

 

On 6/4/2020 at 2:14 PM, jhb171achill said:

While I have no records of what you are looking for, I may be able to dig something up. I’ll make a couple of phone calls tonight.

Personally, though, I certainly recall catering vehicles in or near the middle of formations on at least some occasions when I travelled in the summers of 79, 80 & 81.

Any information you can get at all for about 1977-1987 would be most welcome jhb, thanks very much.

Edited June 10, 2020 by hexagon789

[hexagon789]

To illustrate what I was getting at @jhb171achill, here is a list of Mk2D formations I've compiled from a selection of photographs from about 8 or 9 sources. In all cases I've only included where I can clearly identify ALL vehicles in a rake.

Apr. 1975 1130 Gt. Victoria St-Connolly
B167-Std-Compo-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

17.05.75 1130 Gt. Victoria St-Connolly
175-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

17.05.75 1430 Connolly-Gt. Victoria St
163-EGV-1st-Diner-Std-Std-Std

04.07.75 0800 Connolly-Gt. Victoria St
B157-EGV-1st-Diner-Std-Std-Std

14.07.75 1450 Waterford-Hueston
A20r-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-Compo-EGV

17.07.75 1730 Cork-Hueston
A Class-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

18.07.75 0800 Tralee-Hueston
074-Std-Compo-Std-Compo-Std-Diner-Compo-EGV

18.07.75 1720 FO Hueston-Cork
175-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

18.07.75 1810 Hueston-Galway
032-EGV-Compo-Diner-Std-Std-Std-Compo-Std-Std

17.08.75 1030 SuO Connolly-Gt. Victoria St
B174+B???-EGV-1st-Diner-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std

08.11.75 1130 Gt. Victoria St-Connolly
040-Std-Std-Std-Std-Compo-Std-Diner-Compo-EGV

18.06.77 1730 Belfast-Connolly
074-Std-Compo-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

22.06.77 0810 Waterford-Hueston
082-Compo-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV

09.07.78 1815 SuO Hueston-Limerick
075-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-Compo-EGV

05.08.84 1750 Tralee-Cork
078-Diner-1st-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV*

06.08.84 Bk. hol. MO 1315 Tralee-Hueston
082-Diner-1st-Std-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-1st-EGV*

(*same set)

11.05.85 1340 Westport-Hueston
079-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-Compo-EGV

01.08.85 1440 Hueston-Cork
072-EGV -1st-Diner-Std-Std-Diner-Std-Std

22.01.86 0755 Hueston-Cork & rtn special
160+190+5410 (Diner)+5103 (Std)+5208 (Std)+5222 (Std)+5207 (Std)+5411 (Diner)+5606 (EGV)

27.04.87 1335 Connolly-Rosslare
128+131+EGV+1st+Diner+Std+Std

31.07.86 Hueston
074-Std-Compo-Diner-Std-Compo-EGV

12.08.87 Connolly (ex-Sligo?)
033-Compo-Std-Std-Compo-Compo-Diner-EGV

14.08.87 Howth Jcn. (Connolly-Belfast?)
079-1st-Diner-Std-Compo-Std

Note - anything listed as a "1st" is a Superstandard and not converted to Standard. 5103 was the first converted in 1985. Anything listed as "compo" is based purely on bodyshells, it is too difficult indeed impossible almost 100% of the time to discern "I" markings on doors and so vehicles I've listed as such may be either Composites, downclassed Composites or those converted to Standards in 1973. Hence you can see the problems with not having actual vehicle numbers.

 

Aside from that I hope they may be of use to someone as well as hopefully demonstrating what I was driving at in my previous posts

[BosKonay]

Didn't IR have Mk2c's also?

[hexagon789]

20 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Didn't IR have Mk2c's also?

A mix of Mk2Z, A, B and C types. 

The first set ran in February 1991 and they were all withdrawn in 2003 iirc.

[hexagon789]

Perhaps I should extend my query to ask if anyone has any formations of Mk2D sets by vehicle numbers they could provide I'd be very grateful. Ideally for about 1980-87 but pre-1980 would still be of interest.

[hexagon789]

Some more formations to add, again purely based on bodyshells for coach types except all of these were clear enough to discern any "1" markings on doors hence a large number of sets now have Firsts converted to Standards in them as these are mostly from the latter half of the 1980s.

 

1987 Mon evening Westport-Hueston 071 Class-Std-downclassed Compo-Diner-downclassed 1st-EGV

 

1987 Mon evening Hueston-Westport 071 Class-EGV-Std-Std-Std-Diner-Std-Std-Std-Std

Mid-1980s midday Westport-Hueston 071 class-Std-Std-Diner-Std-Std-Std-EGV

Galway ECS late-1970s/early-1980s Supertrain 134-EGV-Compo-Diner-Std-Std-downclassed Compo-Std-Compo-Std

Galway line mid-'80s unidentified service 087SA-Diner-Std-Std-downclassed 1st-downclassed 1st-EGV

Galway line mid-'80s unidentified service 074SA-EGV-Diner-downclassed 1st-downclassed 1st-Std

10.1986, Sundays Westport-Hueston 071 Class-Std-Std-Std-Std-Diner-Std-Std-EGV

Last one was observed at Athenry and is dated 1980s but I suspect it's actually 1970s (possibly 1975) as both locos are still in Black 'n' Tan:

B169+B152-downclassed Compo-Std-Compo-Std-downclassed Compo-Diner-1st-EGV

 

 

 

[hexagon789]

I have a noted formation to add:

August 1976 18.10 Hueston-Galway "Cú na Mara"

5603, 5151, 5404, 5226, 5233, 5156, 5223, 5152, 5236

 

Notes:

5603 - Generator Van

5151 & 5152 - Composites (24F, 24S)

5404 - Kitchen Standard (30S)

5226, 5233, 5223, 5236 - Standards (64S)

5156 - Standard (54S)

[DJ Dangerous]

I see mentions in this thread of Mk2D composites and firsts being converted to standards.

First, when did these conversions take place?

And second, what did they entail?

For example, did converting a Mk2D first into a standard involve changing it externally from seven windows to eight?

Did it go from having both bathroom windows on the same side to having them on alternate sides and ends of the coach?

Were the doors blocked off or replaced with windows when the composites were converted to standards?

Did the composite bathroom windows already match the standards?

Thanks!

[flange lubricator]

14 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I see mentions in this thread of Mk2D composites and firsts being converted to standards.

First, when did these conversions take place?

And second, what did they entail?

For example, did converting a Mk2D first into a standard involve changing it externally from seven windows to eight?

Did it go from having both bathroom windows on the same side to having them on alternate sides and ends of the coach?

Were the doors blocked off or replaced with windows when the composites were converted to standards?

Did the composite bathroom windows already match the standards?

Thanks!

Converting these coaches was simply a matter of changing seats and other internal fixings curtains etc no structural changes were necessary.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, flange lubricator said:

Converting these coaches was simply a matter of changing seats and other internal fixings curtains etc no structural changes were necessary.

Thank you!

So a converted first would still look like a first externally etc?

[hexagon789]

8 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I see mentions in this thread of Mk2D composites and firsts being converted to standards.

First, when did these conversions take place?

5103 was the first conversion in 1985 being reseated to 62 standards. 5101/02/05 were converted to 56 Standard in 1986 and 5104 was converted 56 standard in 1987 during repairs from the 1985 Newry firebombing. 

 

In 1989 5105 was altered to 62 seats.

 

5106 remained as full first right to the end of the 1990s when it was first declassified and then converted to Standard Class.

 

18 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Did it go from having both bathroom windows on the same side to having them on alternate sides and ends of the coach?

No external changes.

 

18 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Were the doors blocked off or replaced with windows when the composites were converted to standards?

No,the centre doors were still usable.

18 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Did the composite bathroom windows already match the standards?

They were on diagonally opposite corners if that's what you mean?

 

 

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Thank you!

So a converted first would still look like a first externally etc?

Yes, just remove the "I" door markings and change the internal seating to Standard Class 

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

5103 was the first conversion in 1985 being reseated to 62 standards. 5101/02/05 were converted to 56 Standard in 1986 and 5104 was converted 56 standard in 1987 during repairs from the 1985 Newry firebombing. 

 

In 1989 5105 was altered to 62 seats.

 

5106 remained as full first right to the end of the 1990s when it was first declassified and then converted to Standard Class.

 

No external changes.

 

No,the centre doors were still usable.

They were on diagonally opposite corners if that's what you mean?

 

 

Yes, just remove the "I" door markings and change the internal seating to Standard Class 

Awesome, thank you!!!

Yes, "diagonally opposite" was what I meant by alternate sides and ends.

Thank you!

[flange lubricator]

5106 Full First

[hexagon789]

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Awesome, thank you!!!

Yes, "diagonally opposite" was what I meant by alternate sides and ends.

Thank you!

No problem. I have scans of the as-built internal layouts if it helps at all.

 

And as I omitted it above - the composites were converted at various dates. 4 initially in April/May 1973. Then another 1 in 1989 leaving 3. One of the 1973 conversions was then converted back to composite by 1993.

When Sligo became standard class only again the remaining 4 were gradually converted to Standard. The last was 5156 which was still a composite internally as late as May-2005 by photo evidence.

2 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

5106 Full First

Magnificent, don't suppose you've one of a Compo?

[flange lubricator]

3 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

No problem. I have scans of the as-built internal layouts if it helps at all.

 

And as I omitted it above - the composites were converted at various dates. 4 initially in April/May 1973. Then another 1 in 1989 leaving 3. One of the 1973 conversions was then converted back to composite by 1993.

When Sligo became standard class only again the remaining 4 were gradually converted to Standard. The last was 5156 which was still a composite internally as late as May-2005 by photo evidence.

Magnificent, don't suppose you've one of a Compo?

no unfortunately not im afraid

 

[hexagon789]

Just now, flange lubricator said:

no unfortunately not im afraid

 

Thanks anyway mate, I saw one online years ago showing the exterior and interior of a Composite but stupidly forgot to save a copy and I've never found it since.

Now whenever I see an interesting image I save a copy immediately! (One learns the hard way... )