Small production run of MGWR 6 wheel thirds

[jhb171achill]

Hi folks

I've been speaking with Allen Doherty of Worsley Works to enquire whether it is feasible to do a small run of this most essential 1950s CIE coach. The answer, of course, is yes - depending on numbers. There need to a minimum of only eight to allow him to break even. I want two, so that's only six left.

I wonder would anyone here be interesting in committing to ordering a few, and letting Allen know? As stated, I'd take two, maybe three.

I don't know what the price would be, but his kits are very reasonable indeed.

If successful, the brake third which was so common would be another possibility.

[jhb171achill]

Four now committed to, possibly five. Any takers for three or four more?

[Glenderg]

Defo, will take two please. Richie. 

[popeye]

I will take two and the brake third would be nice too.

[jhb171achill]

OK, folks, it's viable!

I'll get onto Worsley and post details of progress here.

If anyone else wants them, as long as they're in amounts of four (that's my understanding) they can be done too. Or contact Worsley directly yourself.

Regarding the brake 3rd, I'd take one; Popeye is a second - anyone for six more?

[DiveController]

I might also be interested in a short rake of these but what exactly is being offered? Worsley typically does scratch building aids, not complete brass kits like JM Designs or SSM. Perhaps an estimate for what ever is being proposed would be helpful? This must be possible in order to estimate a minimum quantity to break even? A photo @jhb171achill might stimulate some further interest making pricing even better?

Thanks

K

Edited August 3, 2018 by DiveController

[Noel]

If they are complete kits I'd take two and a brake.

[Mayner]

The Worsley Works kits basically include underframe (floor, solebars, bufferbeams), sides and end etches with the builder to provide wheels, bogies, roof, detail castings, partitions, seating. I understand that the GSWR 6 wheeler kits include a roof and a basic Clermiston underframe (axleguards with a pivot arrangement to go round curves).

Roof and tumbledown curves have to be formed as the parts are supplied flat, solder assembly is necessary as there is no provision for glue together slot and tab assembly.

On the plus side some MGWR castings are available through Dart Castings (my patterns) no suitable spring casting is currently available for the MGWR 6w coaches.

Some MGWR coaches are on the JM Design long term wish list(I need the coaches for my own layout) including 6w 3, lavatory 2nd, brake 3rd and TPO.

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, Mayner said:

 

Some MGWR coaches are on the JM Design long term wish list(I need the coaches for my own layout) including 6w 3, lavatory 2nd, brake 3rd and TPO.

One of their distinctive side-corridor bogies, possibly?

.....Anything MGW is welcome!

I have made enquiries as to likely cost. yes - these would be standard Worsley "Srcatch-Aid" models, requiring a certain amount of work by the purchaser.

[KMCE]

I would be interested, but like other would like a little more information if possible.

 

Ken

[jhb171achill]

I think the best thing is look up the Worsley Works website. Have a look at their 4mm scale GSWR kits. The MGWR ones would be the same type of construction and probably a broadly similar price. 

However, when I have answers to a few of my own queries I’ll post details here.

[Mayner]

The Worsley Works and Comet follow similar design principals. Building Coaches the Comet way gives a good idea of what's involved in assembling a coach from Worsley Works parts https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/bctcw.pdf my article on the Worsley Works website covers some of the challenges in assembling their Park Royal & Laminate coaches http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm.

A prospective buyer would need to allow another £10-20 plus per coach to cover the cost of wheels, bearings, castings, seats, door and pull handles, plasticard for partitions and floor and glazing plus couplers of choice. Wizard Models & Markits probably the best choice for OO wheels and bearings, brass wire, Dart Castings/MJT for whitemetal castings.

[jhb171achill]

Latest is..... roughly £30 stg per coach. Floor & chassis & footboards included.

more anon 

[Phil3150]

Definitely up for one!

Phil

[murrayec]

Here is a pic of a Worsley Works 6 wheeler lav;-

 

[Garfield]

I’d be up for a few as well, JB!

[Noel]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:32 PM, Mayner said:

The Worsley Works kits basically include underframe (floor, solebars, bufferbeams), sides and end etches with the builder to provide wheels, bogies, roof, detail castings, partitions, seating. I understand that the GSWR 6 wheeler kits include a roof and a basic Clermiston underframe (axleguards with a pivot arrangement to go round curves).

Roof and tumbledown curves have to be formed as the parts are supplied flat, solder assembly is necessary as there is no provision for glue together slot and tab assembly.

On the plus side some MGWR castings are available through Dart Castings (my patterns) no suitable spring casting is currently available for the MGWR 6w coaches.

Some MGWR coaches are on the JM Design long term wish list(I need the coaches for my own layout) including 6w 3, lavatory 2nd, brake 3rd and TPO.

Thanks John.  Unfortunately I'll have to pass then on this one as it's not a full kit. 

On 8/3/2018 at 11:19 PM, jhb171achill said:

I think the best thing is look up the Worsley Works website. Have a look at their 4mm scale GSWR kits. The MGWR ones would be the same type of construction and probably a broadly similar price. 

Thanks JB. Had a good look at that and sadly confirms it's not for me due the demanding brass skills required to do it right. Commissioning one of the few brass masters remains an option. I would not be happy attempting that myself and end up with bockety or off square results. I'll make discrete enquiries  

On 8/4/2018 at 12:42 AM, Mayner said:

The Worsley Works and Comet follow similar design principals. Building Coaches the Comet way gives a good idea of what's involved in assembling a coach from Worsley Works parts https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/bctcw.pdf my article on the Worsley Works website covers some of the challenges in assembling their Park Royal & Laminate coaches http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm.

A prospective buyer would need to allow another £10-20 plus per coach to cover the cost of wheels, bearings, castings, seats, door and pull handles, plasticard for partitions and floor and glazing plus couplers of choice. Wizard Models & Markits probably the best choice for OO wheels and bearings, brass wire, Dart Castings/MJT for whitemetal castings.

Thanks for info. Ok, more than a few bits'n'pieces to be correctly sourced not to mention postage to make a proper complete kit. Quite simply my airfix skills are not up to it.   

[merlinxlili]

Any news on this? I thought that Alan needed a decent drawing or two. Wonderful opportunity to get kits for 6 wheelers with largely rectangular mouldings. 

[jhb171achill]

I'm sending him an outline drawing today, if I can find it; I've been away and am only just back.

[DiveController]

Having seen the various MGWR on Rails through North Kerry, I’m still tempted... 

[jhb171achill]

That oul crate of a thing they had on the Foynes branch in its last days was a MGWR brake 3rd....

Drawings sent to Worsley Works today. I still have to photocopy one and send it too. Allen is all ready to go once I get him whatever stuff I can.

[jhb171achill]

Former MGWR six-wheeled stock were to be seen in locations as diverse as West Cork, the Harcourt Street and Bray - Amiens St lines, every corner of the Midland, even in Enniskillen when borrowed by the SLNCR! In the 1910s, six or more spent a number of years on loan to the BCDR and would have covered all that system. The Sligo - Limerick - Tralee lines saw them too, as did the Foynes branch. I am quite sure that they were to be seen at many GSWR locations, even the main line. At least one went over the the Waterford & Tramore, I think.

The last use of them, in summer 1963, was on the Cork - Youghal and Cobh lines. An IRRS excursion over to Albert Quay used one in early 1964. It was already officially withdrawn, and this trip marked the last passenger journey by a six-wheeled coach, as well as the last passenger working across the Cork City Railway and into Albert Quay. Wish I'd been on it - at my age, I would have clearly remembered it.........!

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

That oul crate of a thing they had on the Foynes branch in its last days was a MGWR brake 3rd....

Drawings sent to Worsley Works today. I still have to photocopy one and send it too. Allen is all ready to go once I get him whatever stuff I can.

The oul crate of a thing was originally a "Slip Coach" used for direct Broadstone-Edenderry services. Slip coaches were uncoupled from non-stop trains (at speed!) to provide connections to branch lines and intermediate stations. The Edenderry coach would have been detatched from a train as it approached Enfield and allowed to coast to the platform where it would have been picked up by the Edenderry branch train, not sure when the practice stopped Edenderry lost its passenger service in the early 1930s. The Western Region seems to have been the last railway in the UK to use slip coaches.

 

[jhb171achill]

I didn't know that BR still used them that late.

I think - but can't be sure - that the GNR(I) was the last to use them here, and that their practices ended some time between 1919 and the mid 1920s. 

Edenderry lost its passenger service very early, yes, 1931 I believe. It would seem that towards that date, slip working had ceased there.

I didn't know that the "oul crate" had been a slip coach - interesting.

So: quiz question: where else in Ireland were they used? The GNR used one on the up Belfast - Dublin (I think it was brake tri-compo No. 19) and it was slipped approaching Amiens Street so that it could cruise downhill into the LNWR North Wall terminal.

[Garfield]

52 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

So: quiz question: where else in Ireland were they used? The GNR used one on the up Belfast - Dublin (I think it was brake tri-compo No. 19) and it was slipped approaching Amiens Street so that it could cruise downhill into the LNWR North Wall terminal.

Didn’t the MGWR use a slip coach on the Sligo line, dropping off at Inny Junction for Cavan?

[Mayner]

I managed to dig up my copy of Padriag O'Cuimin's paper on MGWR Carriage Stock. The "oul crate" was a very rare breed indeed a 6w brake composite with 1st & 2nd Class accommodation ideal for a mixed or 1 coach passenger train on a line with light passenger traffic

According to MGWR Carriage Stock 36 a re-build of an earlier coach entered service in 1908 with seating for 8 1st and 24 2nd class passengers and electric lighting! The 2nds were presumably re-classified as 3rds and kept their upholstered seating when the MGWR abolished 2nd class in 1914.

36 appears to have started life as a 4 compartment 1-2nd composite and converted into a slip coach by converting one of the 2nd class compartments into a brake apartment with end and side lookouts, presumably in the absence of a luggage compartment bulky parcel and mail traffic would have been carried in a H Van or possibly one of the passenger compartments.

Apparently very few passengers traveled on the mixed, there is a story of a passenger turning up at Limerick to ride the mixed. The  lone passenger is escorted to the end of the platform by a porter, loco and coach arrive pipassenger and return to goods yard picks up the rest of the train, backs out past Check Cabin and departs for Foynes.

H.C. Casserley photo of 36m at Adare

[Mayner]

59 minutes ago, Garfield said:

Didn’t the MGWR use a slip coach on the Sligo line, dropping off at Inny Junction for Cavan?

There is a note on slip working in Shepherd's Midland and Great Western Railway of Ireland. Apparently in the summer 1918 timetable there was a slip at Inny Junction for the Cavan Branch. Shepherd comments that it was difficult to understand the economics of the slip in the timetable as it was necessary to send a light engine from Mullingar in advance of the Sligo passenger to pick up the Cavan coach.

Slip working appears to have continued at Enfield up to 1926 into GSR days.

 

[jhb171achill]

To go back to the original topic, I am advised that due to the three layers of heading etc., it’s not as easy to do MGWR stuff as brass “scratch-aid” kits. Thus, it seems they could be exceptionally fiddly to produce and / or make.

Currently on hold, but not forgotten about!

[popeye]

I was speaking to Alan  during the week and that's what he told me.

So i ordered two GSWR coaches in the meantime.

[Mayner]

On 9/9/2018 at 3:30 AM, jhb171achill said:

To go back to the original topic, I am advised that due to the three layers of heading etc., it’s not as easy to do MGWR stuff as brass “scratch-aid” kits. Thus, it seems they could be exceptionally fiddly to produce and / or make.

Currently on hold, but not forgotten about!

The sides on coaches with Attock panelling would have to be built up in two layers rather than the single layer used in the majority of etched kits. The additional layer would add to the cost, but could be used to provide a useful glazing rebate.

[jhb171achill]

Any thoughts on production, folks?

[Mayner]

23 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Any thoughts on production, folks?

Some Midland 6 wheelers are on my to do list and should be able to release as complete kits in the later part of 2019.  I need a couple of rakes of MGWR 6w coaches for my own layout.

At this stage I am looking at a 3rd, brake 3rd, composite  & TPO possibly a combination of pre and post 1900 vehicles with different roof profiles and paneling styles.

Apart from coach springs suitable castings (from my patterns) are available for these coaches in Dart Castings MJT range in the UK.

[jhb171achill]

I'd be up for that, John. Put me down for a few.

[DiveController]

Same here John, something to run with a certain MGWR K/GSR 650 loco if I have the skill to build her in some sort of running order

Edited September 11, 2018 by DiveController

[Colin R]

Hi all, coming back to the MGWR coaches for a moment any one considered them as a 3D prints? or using a Silhouette Cameo cutter to make up the bits in plastikard and then glue them together?

Look at the following thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79025-a-guide-to-using-the-silhouette-cameo-cutter/

 

 

Colin

Edited October 2, 2018 by Colin R