Dublin automated metro operations consultant appointed

[spudfan]

https://www.railwaygazette.com/projects-and-planning/dublin-automated-metro-operations-consultant-appointed/55865.article

[Georgeconna]

Ah Consultants - Can't get too excited over this then.

[jhb171achill]

It's getting closer now - only another sixteen years to employ all the consultants, then a 23 year approval process, 15 years "signing off on" things, 67 years testing, verifying and hiring consultants to approve the work of the consultants who are by now dead.

Then the compliance stuff, and the health and safety audits.

Hey Presto! Construction starts in 3019, and takes only four times the time expected, and only 13 times the budget.

First train: 1st June, 3267. I can't wait....................

Edited July 31, 2022 by jhb171achill

[K801]

Don't forget all the objections.....from people living hundreds of miles away from it

[jhb171achill]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 3:20 PM, K801 said:

Don't forget all the objections.....from people living hundreds of miles away from it

................and those who will never travel on it..............

[Broithe]

 

[StevieB]

Nice video. The obvious question is why not extend the existing LUAS or heavy rail suburban system rather than have a new,third rail based system?

Stephen

[murphaph]

It won't be third rail. That's outlawed on safety reasons. It'll be ohle.

Luas is clearly operating at it's capacity and that's after a number of tram lengthening projects to bring trans up to 55m in length. They can't feasibly get any longer while sharing road space with other users.

Ideally Luas green line south of Charlemont will be upgraded to full metro and flow seamlessly into the proposed metrolink there, therefore the standard gauge is definitely the correct choice. It also greatly simplifies purchasing rolling stock.

The proposed metrolink is actually pretty solid. It's very similar to the Copenhagen metro, which IMO is one of the very best. Fully automated driverless trains are definitely the correct choice. You can ramp up the capacity to trains every minute if you need to with a system like that. 

Hopefully if this line is actually built, it will just be the first. A line running southwest to northeast would have great merit also some day and extending the proposed metrolink to interchange with the proposed DART at Donabate is almost a no brainer and an easy win across flat land. I suspect that will be one of the first extensions to be honest.

[Mayner]

On 6/4/2020 at 3:40 AM, jhb171achill said:

................and those who will never travel on it..............

Just noticed this thread!

To turn the argument on its head what about the 95% of the population who will end up paying for the Metro (through their taxes) but will never travel on it?

The main problem with funding public transport through general as opposed to local taxation is that it goes against the user pays principal with the small minority who regularly use rail benefiting, unlike roading, health and education where the majority of citizens benefit.

Funding through local taxation, by landowners and by businesses that directly benefit is much more equitable. In many countries public transport is jointly funded by Central and Local Government with Central Government funding infrastructure, Local Government rolling stock and operating subsidy.

In this part of the World public transport services are the responsibility or local and regional councils in terms of funding and service levels and are funded by rates with much more accountability at local levels than through an organisation like IE or the NTA.

The Auckland Underground Rail Link the missing link in Auckland's suburban rail system is jointly funded by Central and Regional Government through direct (income tax) and local (Commercial and Domestic rates). Currently there is a high level of public and political opposition to imposing congestion charging (an Auckland fuel tax) to force motorists to use public transport.

Like the DART, LUAS, and Metro, improvements in Auckland's rail system have been beset by delays for over 60 years and numerous consultants reports, New Zealand Railways 1950s proposals to extend and electrify the system was de-railed by a 50-90s focus on building motorways and low density housing, the Regional Council was forced to take baby steps to improve the existing diesel services with re-furbished ex BR rolling stock in the early 2000s to establish a case for electrifying the existing heavy rail lines. Attempts to build a Light Rail system to the Airport and areas outside the reach of the heavy rail system became a political football between political parties that support and oppose public transport achieving nothing in over 20 years.

[jhb171achill]

Impressive video of it...but the Tara St shown in it is clean and well-kept.

The reality could be that it is populated by druggies and beggars and handbag-snatchers; will there be a dedicated transport police who have powers to physically remove people from trains and premises?

[Ironroad]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

To turn the argument on its head what about the 95% of the population who will end up paying for the Metro (through their taxes) but will never travel on it?

 

 

I think 95% is bit of an exaggeration, one third of the population lives in the greater Dublin area. The proposed interchange in Glasnevin alone will link Kildare, Maynooth, Swords, the Airport, the Docklands, the south side of the city and the Dart system (both Connolly and Tara St.)

Although I have never understood why a quick and easy link to the city from the airport via the northern line at Clongriffin could not have been provided long since. Perhaps the fact this may have necessitated adding a third running line from at least Clongriffin to the city was a factor mitigating against this but I believe this will ultimately have to be done anyway given the congestion that exists on this section of rail line.

As for who pays, well the same  can be said of motorways and national road routes (anywhere in the world) which are funded centrally. They would not be built if local populations were expected to pay for them.  But I do have a problem with the fact that the trucking industry is not expected to pay proportionately for  roads. The fact that they enjoy this invisible subsidy is always overlooked when the finances and viability of railways are under scrutiny.

As regards the Dublin Metro, central funding does make sense in the interests reducing car dependency in a congested area with the environmental benefits this brings and reducing pressure to expand road capacity.   It is also  impossible to consider some sort of local taxation to contribute to this funding or even for local initiatives to be considered or commissioned, when the local authorities have been stripped of their powers progressively since the inception of the state to the point that the Dail has become a glorified county council. A re-organisation is in order including elected Mayors in the major cities.

[murphaph]

The reality here is that "centrally funded" actually means Dublin funded as Dublin taxes and the taxes of a handful of other urban areas are transferred to and used in areas where tax revenues are too low to provide public services and infrastructure. These are called social transfers and most counties in Ireland are net recipients. I have no problem with this concept as I see Ireland as one, relatively small country. I do have a problem with tax payers in areas in receipt of social transfers mistakenly believing they are funding metros in Dublin. The truth is, if taxes raised in the cities was ring fenced for spending in the cities, there would already be an extensive urban rail network in every Irish city but the interurban motorway network probably wouldn't exist and most bypasses would never have been built either.

I prefer to stick together but this means that Dublin gets infrastructure appropriate to a city of its size and importance to the national economy. Arguments such as "make Google locate in small town x" are patently ridiculous. Companies locate where they want to, not where the IDA wants them to. Dublin (and the other cities) should not be deliberately strangled of critical infrastructure. A richer Dublin means a richer Ireland. Increased tax revenues from Dublin can fund infrastructure elsewhere and a rising tide can lift all boats.

 

[DoctorPan]

On 29/7/2022 at 9:08 PM, StevieB said:

Nice video. The obvious question is why not extend the existing LUAS or heavy rail suburban system rather than have a new,third rail based system?

Stephen

LUAS is a light rail street level system operating as a street level metro system and is hopelessly overcrowded and at capacity as its expecting to do heavy lifting far beyond what could be expected of a LRT. Grade seperate metro allows for a journey time not effected by people or traffic. Hell LUAS can't even get priority at road junctions, something completely unheard of on LRTs and unqiue to Ireland. 

[StevieB]

On 29/7/2022 at 9:50 PM, murphaph said:

It won't be third rail. That's outlawed on safety reasons. It'll be ohle.

Luas is clearly operating at it's capacity and that's after a number of tram lengthening projects to bring trans up to 55m in length. They can't feasibly get any longer while sharing road space with other users.

Ideally Luas green line south of Charlemont will be upgraded to full metro and flow seamlessly into the proposed metrolink there, therefore the standard gauge is definitely the correct choice. It also greatly simplifies purchasing rolling stock.

The proposed metrolink is actually pretty solid. It's very similar to the Copenhagen metro, which IMO is one of the very best. Fully automated driverless trains are definitely the correct choice. You can ramp up the capacity to trains every minute if you need to with a system like that. 

Hopefully if this line is actually built, it will just be the first. A line running southwest to northeast would have great merit also some day and extending the proposed metrolink to interchange with the proposed DART at Donabate is almost a no brainer and an easy win across flat land. I suspect that will be one of the first extensions to be honest.

I meant third rail in the sense that we already have DART and LUAS, so the Metro becomes the third! 
 

Stephen

[murphaph]

Ah I see. Well I guess it comes down to suitability. It's not an accident that many cities have trams, metros and heavy rail combinations. Berlin, Munich & Hamburg to name but three German examples. The latter two are comparable in size to Dublin. 

Heavy rail means very large loading gauge which means very large diameter tunnels which mean expense.

Trams don't have the capacity you'd want to squeeze out of an expensive tunnel of that length.

So you go with a middle road of metro.

[StevieB]

So, how do we define the Tyneside and Manchester Metros? On Tyneside the network is a combination of former BR routes and new lengths of tunnel, while in Manchester the network is a combination of former BR routes and on street running.

Stephen

[murphaph]

We've got a combination of former heavy rail and on street running in the current green line (from Charlemont to Sandyford it follows the old Harcourt Street alignment) and it's at capacity precisely because of the on street sections which are the bottleneck (you can't keep adding more trams because other traffic has to cross paths with them at junctions).

Ideally the green line south of Charlemont will ultimately be upgraded to full metro as was originally proposed (the loading gauge allegedly allows for this without relaying the track)

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

We've got a combination of former heavy rail and on street running in the current green line (from Charlemont to Sandyford it follows the old Harcourt Street alignment) and it's at capacity precisely because of the on street sections which are the bottleneck (you can't keep adding more trams because other traffic has to cross paths with them at junctions).

Ideally the green line south of Charlemont will ultimately be upgraded to full metro as was originally proposed (the loading gauge allegedly allows for this without relaying the track)

 

…..AND extended to Bray.

[murphaph]

Makes absolute sense to extend to Bray as does extending the proposed metrolink to meet the DART at Donabate. The latter must surely be a relatively easy win across flat, fairly empty land. Would allow outer suburban and perhaps even enterprise trains to stop there, giving much more rapid access to Dublin airport (as well as DCU and the Mater).

Sadly in Ireland we seem to need to build the under specified versions of things first and then upgrade them at greater expense later. This didn't apply to the inter urban roads network however. You can see where our priorities lie.

[DoctorPan]

Grade seperation is the name of the game and its something us rail engineers have been braying about for decades but ulimately ignored. Rail projects get built on 10 year old models and so are over subscribed from day 1. LUAS was screamed as a white elephant and on opening day, the garda and polictians were caught with their pants down as the expected light service pattern was completely and utterly overwhlemed requiring LUAS to go to full operating service patterns. Something the operators had flagged but were overruled as something as a fanasty. 

[murphaph]

It's bizarre isn't it. Look at all the grade separated junctions on the roads network. Must be hundreds now, some very large junctions. When I was a small kid you could count them all on your two hands. How many grade separated junctions have been added to the rail network in that time? Not very many and none on the heavy rail network that I can think of.