Very compact layouts

[jhb171achill]

Folks, I was perusing two photos of the fascinating but little-known Polloxfens Mill siding at Ballysodare.

The track layout there was extremely compact, and as can be seen from the attached rough doodle, achieved but means of one of Ireland’s few three-way sets of points.

With seven adjacent, but short tracks, as a shunting layout exercise you could play about with about a dozen “H” vans at a time, with an oul J18, a “C” class or a 141, depending on what era you were interested in. 

This sort of thing would fit nicely into any tight layout corner.

[Midland Man]

I really wanted to model that as a prototype in O gauge after I saw a pic in Railways in Ireland pt3. The line would have got G2 654 Clara working on about 57/58 before it moved to the Loughrea and then the Kilfee branch. Another great model would be the juntion where the SLNCR left the MGWR in the 40s/50s (sorry I forgot the name for the station but remember what it looks like)

And @jhb171achill one part I noticed is that there is a point that goes into the so called "building". Thanks for showing the track plan. Who ever mite model this will have great joy in doing so(or maybe I will do so you never know.) The 3 way point is quite interesting a I have only seen it at Buree in Limerick.

MM

 

[David Holman]

Probably need about 2m by 0.5m in 4mm scale, including the shunting neck. These sorts of layouts can make excellent short to medium term projects. Indeed, with commercial track, you could probably have it operational in a weekend and by using ready to plant buildings, it could be fully scenic in 2 - 4 weeks of lockdown.

 The main problem is that operation is a bit one dimensional in that you are limited to just shuffling wagons about - though a card index could make moves more challenging. Also, with only a single loco needed, it would be well worth investing in DCC for sound. Tried this with an American outline, dual scale, project a few years ago. It's in the foreign layouts thread under the name Dichotomy. Used 16.mm track for an HO Shay and an On16.5 Shay, each with a few boxcars. Sound made all the difference - whistle/horn for each move, brake squeal etc. With not much else to think about, you could make each movement that bit more realistic and absorbing.

[Galteemore]

The cutting would make an ideal scenic break too. As David says, a good short term project. Also a good way of trialling scenic and other techniques - that ground cover is DAS clay territory. In a small space you could really go to town on the scenic detailing. Wouldn’t require masses of stock either. Ideal for a 21mm starter project in many ways - convert a 141 or new A class, and build a few H vans. Although I’d probably get Marcway to do that three way point for me ! 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

Funnily enough I am looking at Ballysadare & Clara Mill siding as a corner industry on a 4mm layout, there an interesting series of the mill complex and the sidings around the turn of the 20th Century in the Lawrence Collection at the National Library. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=ballysadare&type=AllFields&filter[]=authorStr%3A"French%2C+Robert%2C+1841-1917+photographer"&filter[]=format%3A"Photo"&page=2&view=list

Polloxfens Mill would make a spectacular model in its own right with the river running through the middle of the complex, various ropeways and conveyors to transport the raw material and finished product around the mill and the almost Wild West style conveyor head house above the railway sidings. Clara Mill does not have the appeal of Ballysodare but more practical as a background corner industry with a very simple track layout and towering grain elevators with plenty of corrugated iron.

Loading/unloading wagons at Ballysadare would have involved a lot of shunting as only one wagon at a time could be positioned on the loading bank/head house sidings. Each siding was served by a loop presumably operated in a similar manner to a colliery with empties on one leg of the loop and full wagons on the other. Polloxfens do not appear to have had a shunting locomotive, though a small Hunslet like 299 or SLNCR Waterford would not look out of place.

As David noted operation as a stand alone layout would be a bit one dimensional with H vans bringing out the finished product (feed, cereal or flour?) and bulk grain wagons bringing in grain from County Wexford or Dublin Port.

I would not overestimate the number of wagons required for an Inglenook style shunting layout with 3 sidings and a headshunt.

A loco and 5-6 wagons is more than adequate for such a layout with a head shunt long enough to take a loco and 5 wagons, more wagons and longer trains don't really add to the enjoyment of operating a shunting layout as it takes around the same amount of time to set out or pick up a single wagon as a cut of 3-4. I found that 24 wagons more than adequate for an operating layout with 4 yards/stations and could keep 2 train crews busy for several hours.

[jhb171achill]

My understating is that the train loco of the goods did the shunting. So a G2 or J18 would be just right!

As others suggest, a good start for 21mm DCC, or "0" scale, without mortgage-level expense. I often thought that Fintona would be another such - possibly on the basis that it's a few years later and the passenger train is a single-unit railcar to Omagh, like the old Gardner (was it 101?) which ended its days on Derry - Strabane locals....  if the INW had made it to 1967, you've a CIE 141 or a "C" coming in to shunt, or a "Jeep" or 00 Works "UG"......

Dream on, jhb171.......

[Midland Man]

J18 would have been shunting at th quay as well and a J26 also would have be at Sligo in the late 50s about 56.

[Mayner]

I suggested a small shunting locomotive mainly because the majority of the shunting at Polloxfen's Mill would have taken place when a main line loco was not present. 

Operation at Polloxfen's appears to have been similar in principal to a sugar factory or coal mine with the main line loco dropping off and collecting cuts of wagons from the loops within the mill yard. Polloxfen's staff positioning individual wagons for loading/unloading at the loading platforms or bulk grain loading/unloading building.

Traffic appears to have been heavy while the siding was in operation, the original layout with two loading banks and two sets of loops appears to have been expended to include 3 loading banks with three sets of loops and a siding or sidings to a bulk grain loading/unloading building  visible with doors closed on left in photo in JHBs post. Bulk grain for Ballysodare appears to have been loaded at Ferns and possibly Enniscorthy on the South Eastern and from Dublin Port, traffic was carried in a mixture of CIE and GSR built hopper wagons in CIE days, a number of CIE hoppers including some converted from H Vans are visible in a photo of the mill sidings in JHB & Barry Carse's Rails Through The West

Wagons may have been moved around the yard by human or horse power possibly with gravity assistance,( possibly with a tractor or truck as a tug in later years.) when a main line locomotive was not available.

Although the MGWR did not have anything exactly suitable or economic for light shunting at Ballysodare Mill the SLNCR had a pair of Hunslet contractors/industrial tanks Faugh-a-Ballagh and Waterford which were used for shunting an banking duties a couple of miles down the line at Collonney SLNCR. Given the space in interesting idea would be to use an industrial loco for shunting the mill sidings and working wagons up to the station for a main line locomotive to collect, the two long sidings off the Mill Branch before it connects with the main line almost appear to have been intended for this purpose.

 

While a small shunting locomotive shunting would add to the operating interest and were commonly used on industrial siding in the UK and overseas, they were fairly uncommon in Ireland & Polloxfen's managed to operate its mill sidings without their own locomotive for many years.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Mayner

[TimO]

As Mayner has suggested I recall seeing a very rusty Fordson? Tractor in the yard at Polloxfens during 1970/80s. I don’t recall the year but I’m sure it was used for shunting. Also most likely the loops were used for inwards traffic on one leg and outbound on the other.

[burnthebox]

On 4/18/2020 at 7:49 PM, Midland Man said:

And @jhb171achill one

MM

 

Jeasus, lads, will someone position this photo correctly, I got a bit of a fright when I clicked on this,  & I’m innocent,for a minute there I thought I was going somewhere else....!

[WRENNEIRE]

[DiveController]

Good view of the three-way point now

[Broadstone]

On 20/4/2020 at 11:17 AM, Mayner said:

Funnily enough I am looking at Ballysadare & Clara Mill siding as a corner industry on a 4mm layout, there an interesting series of the mill complex and the sidings around the turn of the 20th Century in the Lawrence Collection at the National Library. http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=ballysadare&type=AllFields&filter[]=authorStr%3A"French%2C+Robert%2C+1841-1917+photographer"&filter[]=format%3A"Photo"&page=2&view=list

Polloxfens Mill would make a spectacular model in its own right with the river running through the middle of the complex, various ropeways and conveyors to transport the raw material and finished product around the mill and the almost Wild West style conveyor head house above the railway sidings. Clara Mill does not have the appeal of Ballysodare but more practical as a background corner industry with a very simple track layout and towering grain elevators with plenty of corrugated iron.

Loading/unloading wagons at Ballysadare would have involved a lot of shunting as only one wagon at a time could be positioned on the loading bank/head house sidings. Each siding was served by a loop presumably operated in a similar manner to a colliery with empties on one leg of the loop and full wagons on the other. Polloxfens do not appear to have had a shunting locomotive, though a small Hunslet like 299 or SLNCR Waterford would not look out of place.

As David noted operation as a stand alone layout would be a bit one dimensional with H vans bringing out the finished product (feed, cereal or flour?) and bulk grain wagons bringing in grain from County Wexford or Dublin Port.

I would not overestimate the number of wagons required for an Inglenook style shunting layout with 3 sidings and a headshunt.

A loco and 5-6 wagons is more than adequate for such a layout with a head shunt long enough to take a loco and 5 wagons, more wagons and longer trains don't really add to the enjoyment of operating a shunting layout as it takes around the same amount of time to set out or pick up a single wagon as a cut of 3-4. I found that 24 wagons more than adequate for an operating layout with 4 yards/stations and could keep 2 train crews busy for several hours.

I have just seen this thread John and I have, years ago, explored Ballysodare Station but never got down to Polloxfen's mills - my loss! It looks to be absolutely fascinating and I wonder if any of it is still there? Certainly I poked my nose into the old station building and the goods shed at Ballysodare, both in a very sorry state. The goods shed is/was suprisingly large. The station would make a fine model what with the MGWR mainline, the WLWR/GSWR train trailing in at Collooney annd the SLNCR at Carrignagat (not sure I've spelled that right!), plus the industrial branch down to the Mills. Food for thought!

But I also clicked on the link to the Library of Ireland and Lawrence Collection photographs and have just spent an enjoyable hour ranging through pictures of the Mills, plus also Athlone, Liffey Junction and other fascinating railway and historical subjects. Thank-you!