Mount Bellew, MGWR

[Midland Man]

J72 looks like an E but would need mods at the front plus new smoke box door. For carriages the hattons      models are a close looking model but will need regauging. Wagons are your simple plank wagons but will need a scratch built chassis. 

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Years ago, I saw a picture of a model someone had made (or repainted!) of a (British) LNER J72 which he had tweaked a bit - I can't remember how, but it involved filing a few bits and gluing on some small bits - not a huge conversion job. Now, it was most certainly not an exact model of a Midland "E" class, but painted grey and with a big number "555" on the side, it looked convincing enough to pass at least the "three foot" rule...

The British equivalent of the K class (the Southern Railway's N class) 2.6.0s can be adapted as Irish, if you can't get an actual Bachmann K class.  Mind you, all of these entered traffic just after the MGWR had become but one part of the GSR, so reference to them as "Midland" engines is stretching things a bit, as in addition to this many spent most of their working lives nowhere near the Midland - used on Waterford - Limerick, Waterford - Cork and Dublin - Cork. Naturally they were also regulars on the Galway and Sligo lines too. So a GSR-era layout will have those. 

While I have not researched it, there may be some Bachmann or Hornby 4.4.0 which might warrant conversion to half-reasonable approximation to an "A" class 4.4.0, and a J18 goods / mixed traffic 0.6.0 could be made up by altering some "bought" 0.6.0. JM Design (John Mayne, here) is offering an extremely nice brass kit of the G2 2.4.0.

A model of a D16 4.4.0 would have me running to sell the car!

There's a model available of several South Eastern & Chatham bogies which if you shorten them a bit bear a vague resemblance to some MGWR bogies of 1900-05 type of design.

The six-wheel carriages, though, are the killer. A MGWR layout based on anything pre-1960 will need them in some shape or form. I asked questions here the other night about the Shapeways 3D prints, and replies from those who know about such thing were far from complimentary about them. Plasticard, in reality, seems the best option here. Drawings are readily available.

Hi Jonathan,

many thanks for the info - the LNER J72 conversion sounds like a reasonable first step, although whether it would be accurate enough to be acceptable in the long term would remain to be seen. I think a comparison of drawings might be in order! The K Class sound a bit too late for my period, which is a shame as anything that eases the path has got to be a good thing, hasn't it? Having had a skim through Ernie Shepherd's book, some of the 4-4-0s seem to bear a family resemblance to Furness Railway and Cambrian Railways locos of the same configuration, so perhaps there is scope there for investigation. John Mayne's kits look absolutely superb, and my concern from a personal perspective is that I'm not able to do them justice - I might have to sell a kidney and get them built by someone who knows what they're doing!

Incidentally, although this is definitely a case of "getting ahead of myself", and given that I'm planning a branch line which would have largely been worked by members the E Class, and given that this would be stretching plausibility to breaking point and beyond, which class(es) of locos would have been turned out in the blue livery? I do realise that they were types that would not have ventured down branchlines, but it seems like too good an opportunity to miss, and it could be a running-in turn 

I'm quite happy with the idea of scratchbuilding carriages, and from that point of view, a six-wheeler is less work than a bogie! I know of several folk over on RMWeb who design and print their own stuff, and some sell as well to help finance their own modelling. I wonder if it might be an option to approach them and see if they'd be prepared to take on a commission to make some really good carriages. What does everyone think?

With kind regards,

Mark

Edited April 24, 2020 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

I've got my books - yay! - and scanning through Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, on page 99 are a couple of rather interesting loco coal wagons, in particular No.1229 with it's cupboard doors withd the circle marking on them. What's the meaning of the circle? And I thought I'd read somewhere that loco coal wagons were black, while this one looks distinctly grey - any thoughts? Could be that this will be my first essay in 5'3" wagonry.....

With kind regards,

Mark

[murrayec]

@2996 Victor A white circle indicates oil burner

Here is a link to my conversion of a J72 to a CIE J10 which could also do for a J26;-

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

............... given that I'm planning a branch line which would have largely been worked by members the E Class, and given that this would be stretching plausibility to breaking point and beyond, which class(es) of locos would have been turned out in the blue livery? I do realise that they were types that would not have ventured down branchlines, but it seems like too good an opportunity to miss, and it could be a running-in turn 

I'm quite happy with the idea of scratchbuilding carriages, and from that point of view, a six-wheeler is less work than a bogie! I know of several folk over on RMWeb who design and print their own stuff, and some sell as well to help finance their own modelling. I wonder if it might be an option to approach them and see if they'd be prepared to take on a commission to make some really good carriages. What does everyone think?

With kind regards,

Mark

Hi Mark

To answer the above, my thoughts for what they're worth...

1. Blue livery - very few. The origin of the blue livery was the idea of having a special livery for the "Tourist Express". It was never meant to an actual change of livery as such, for the whole railway. But when you dedicate a livery to one service, you need a few spares, so perhaps 15 or 20 carriages received it - though there appears to be no record. The vast majority of coaches remained brown, and the majority of locos remained green, though, and it would go without saying that this included the tank engines. I suspect that no locos were blue other than a few "A" class for the main line. There is a lovely painting showing a 2.4.0 at Ballynahinch in blue - it will actually be the cover pic on my forthcoming book on the Clifden line - but I strongly suspect that even that is artistic licence.

2. If you want to go for a branch which would have been primarily operated by the 0.6.0 "E"s, you're looking at Achill 1895-1905, and Athboy and Kingscourt mostly; probably Crossdoney - Killeshandra also. Other lines, such as Ballinrobe, Killala and Loughrea, and the Cavan branch, tended to live on a diet of tender engines due to occasionally heavier goods traffic. You have good "excuse" to have an imaginary branch run with "E"s only.

3. If you manage to get anyone to do a few credible six-wheeled carriages (a minimum would be a first or compo, a third and a brake or 3rd brake) I would definitely be in for a few.

4. If having a blue engine is a deal-breaker (and why not!), you might model a junction station with a tank engine on the branch and a blue 4.4.0 passing through on the main line.

That's my tuppence-worth...

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I've got my books - yay! - and scanning through Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, on page 99 are a couple of rather interesting loco coal wagons, in particular No.1229 with it's cupboard doors with the circle marking on them. What's the meaning of the circle? And I thought I'd read somewhere that loco coal wagons were black, while this one looks distinctly grey - any thoughts? Could be that this will be my first essay in 5'3" wagonry.....

With kind regards,

Mark

It does look grey indeed - but it could be a combination of coal dust, wear and tear, and length of time since it last saw a paint brush - the lettering suggests that wasn't yesterday!

The GSWR had black wagons entirely, as far as can be ascertained, until the late 1890s or early 1900s, and by degrees they were painted what might have been the same very dark grey as locomotives, though by 1925 the more "normal wagon grey" seems to prevail. From what I have seen the Midland was something similar.

If you look at Ernie's book on page 98, the picture of the "soft-top" No. 937 shows what is closer to the truth for pretty much all railway wagons. These things were pushed and battered about - they were basically boxes on wheels, never taken care of like locomotives and carriages. Look at this wagon and you'll see that the freshest paintwork, such as it is, just under roof level, seems way darker. On the framing, it is battered and faded to show bare wood in many places, and clearly very faded. When you get down to chassis level, it's just a jumble of dirt and brake dust.

In all reality, to make a goods train look realistic, very heavy weathering to the point of almost obliterating the actual painted livery is the most realistic finish. This, of course, means that crisp white numbers, logos and lettering looks garish; I wonder if the likes of Railtec would do sheets of "barely visible" letters and numbers....

[2996 Victor]

40 minutes ago, murrayec said:

@2996 Victor A white circle indicates oil burner

Here is a link to my conversion of a J72 to a CIE J10 which could also do for a J26;-

Eoin

Hi Eoin,

many thanks for posting the link - the loco certainly looks the business! I'll have a thorough read through over the weekend!

Many thanks and kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

44 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Mark

To answer the above, my thoughts for what they're worth...

1. Blue livery - very few. The origin of the blue livery was the idea of having a special livery for the "Tourist Express". It was never meant to an actual change of livery as such, for the whole railway. But when you dedicate a livery to one service, you need a few spares, so perhaps 15 or 20 carriages received it - though there appears to be no record. The vast majority of coaches remained brown, and the majority of locos remained green, though, and it would go without saying that this included the tank engines. I suspect that no locos were blue other than a few "A" class for the main line. There is a lovely painting showing a 2.4.0 at Ballynahinch in blue - it will actually be the cover pic on my forthcoming book on the Clifden line - but I strongly suspect that even that is artistic licence.

2. If you want to go for a branch which would have been primarily operated by the 0.6.0 "E"s, you're looking at Achill 1895-1905, and Athboy and Kingscourt mostly; probably Crossdoney - Killeshandra also. Other lines, such as Ballinrobe, Killala and Loughrea, and the Cavan branch, tended to live on a diet of tender engines due to occasionally heavier goods traffic. You have good "excuse" to have an imaginary branch run with "E"s only.

3. If you manage to get anyone to do a few credible six-wheeled carriages (a minimum would be a first or compo, a third and a brake or 3rd brake) I would definitely be in for a few.

4. If having a blue engine is a deal-breaker (and why not!), you might model a junction station with a tank engine on the branch and a blue 4.4.0 passing through on the main line.

That's my tuppence-worth...

Thanks as always for the information, Jonathan!

I suppose a branch operated under normal circumstances by an E Class could see the occasional tender loco for fair and cattle specials?

A blue engine definitely isn't a deal breaker - I did realise that they were in a definite minority, but I thought "if I can dream up an excuse," like a running in turn, "then why not!"

As far as 3D-printed carriages are concerned, I'll see what I can find out.

Looking forward to your Clifden book!

With kind regards,

Mark

[murrayec]

4 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I'm quite happy with the idea of scratchbuilding carriages, and from that point of view, a six-wheeler is less work than a bogie! I know of several folk over on RMWeb who design and print their own stuff, and some sell as well to help finance their own modelling. I wonder if it might be an option to approach them and see if they'd be prepared to take on a commission to make some really good carriages. What does everyone think?

@2996 Victor

For six wheelers, Studio Scale Models do a pretty good and comprehensive kit

Another link coming on and more reading for the weekend;-

 

Eoin

Edited April 24, 2020 by murrayec

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

I suppose a branch operated under normal circumstances by an E Class could see the occasional tender loco for fair and cattle specials?

 

Very much so. On the Achill branch at first, normal trains were "E" class tanks, but Newport and Mulrany fairs and seasonal harvester's emigration trains brought in the 2.4.0 tender engines.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

It does look grey indeed - but it could be a combination of coal dust, wear and tear, and length of time since it last saw a paint brush - the lettering suggests that wasn't yesterday!

The GSWR had black wagons entirely, as far as can be ascertained, until the late 1890s or early 1900s, and by degrees they were painted what might have been the same very dark grey as locomotives, though by 1925 the more "normal wagon grey" seems to prevail. From what I have seen the Midland was something similar.

If you look at Ernie's book on page 98, the picture of the "soft-top" No. 937 shows what is closer to the truth for pretty much all railway wagons. These things were pushed and battered about - they were basically boxes on wheels, never taken care of like locomotives and carriages. Look at this wagon and you'll see that the freshest paintwork, such as it is, just under roof level, seems way darker. On the framing, it is battered and faded to show bare wood in many places, and clearly very faded. When you get down to chassis level, it's just a jumble of dirt and brake dust.

In all reality, to make a goods train look realistic, very heavy weathering to the point of almost obliterating the actual painted livery is the most realistic finish. This, of course, means that crisp white numbers, logos and lettering looks garish; I wonder if the likes of Railtec would do sheets of "barely visible" letters and numbers....

I see what you mean about No.937, it's certainly seen life! And what an excellent subject for modelling! The apparent splitting of the solebar timber over the right-hand wheel is perhaps evidence of its hard existence.

Not sure about transfers, as you say they often seem too white, the best option is hand lettering (not sure my hand-eye co-ordination is up to that any more), or gentle use of a fibreglass pencil to abrade them.

I do like building mucky wagons!

Kind regards,

Mark

Edited April 24, 2020 by 2996 Victor

[jhb171achill]

Putting decals on first, then very heavy weathering, is probably the easiest option for now....

[2996 Victor]

42 minutes ago, murrayec said:

@2996 Victor

For six wheelers, Studio Scale Models do a pity good and comprehensive kit

Another link coming on and more reading for the weekend;-

 

Eoin

Thanks again, Eoin, I've got a busy weekend ahead  

Kind regards,

Mark

[KMCE]

On 4/23/2020 at 12:32 PM, 2996 Victor said:

This latter approach means that I only have to worry about a track gauge for plain track and a back-to-back gauge for wheels, which are proving difficult to find.

Hello Mark,

I'm working in 21mm and picked up my gauges from the Scalefour society:

They also do compensated W-Irons, however I find the SSM units are much better. plus the SSM etch includes brake components.

They do rivet & ply system for track.  Pre-driilled sleepers & rivets are also available.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ken

Edited April 24, 2020 by KMCE

[2996 Victor]

16 minutes ago, KMCE said:

Hello Mark,

I'm working in 21mm and picked up my gauges from the Scalefour society:

They also do compensated W-Irons, however I find the SSM units are much better. plus the SSM etch includes brake components.

They do rivet & ply system for track.  Pre-driilled sleepers & rivets are also available.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ken

Hi Ken,

Many thanks for your post.

I've been in touch with Des at SSM about his W-iron and axleguard etches, plus a couple of kits! Great to hear that the SSM items are good!

I saw that gauges are available from the Scalefour Society, but as a member of the EM Gauge Society, I don't really want to join the S4 as well! However, I've been advised to contact Jeremy Suter to see if he can help.

Thanks again and kind regards,

Mark

[StevieB]

The articles by David Malone in RailModel Digest featured his layout Cliffoney, the might have been MGWR line from Sligo to Bundoran. Sadly, apart from a couple of photos in Modelling Irish Railways, it has never featured in any other magazine, unless someone knows better.

Stephen

[Galteemore]

Yes it’s tantalising to see some pics but not much else! I’ve ordered the volumes of RMD that I was able to find. 

[2996 Victor]

I think there were seven issues of RailModel Digest in total, a "preview" issue and then six numbered issues. I've had mine from new, tried to sell them several times but now glad I didn't manage to! They're well worth tracking down.

David Malone's articles are full of useful information, but pics of Cliffony are thin on the ground, although there is a spread of superb colour shots in one of the issues.

With kind regards,

Mark

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

David Malone's articles are full of useful information, but pics of Cliffony are thin on the ground, although there is a spread of superb colour shots in one of the issues.

With kind regards,

Mark

David Malone's Cliffony does not seem to have got beyond the baseboard and structures phase, his modelling in recent years appears to have shifted towards modelling locos and rolling stock of the 60s and 70s era, colour photos of his work including re-gauged MM diesels, a G611 & 4w heating and luggage vans can be viewed in the new Irish Lines Archive.

 

[Jack O'Brien]

16 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Jonathan,

many thanks for the info - the LNER J72 conversion sounds like a reasonable first step, although whether it would be accurate enough to be acceptable in the long term would remain to be seen. I think a comparison of drawings might be in order! The K Class sound a bit too late for my period, which is a shame as anything that eases the path has got to be a good thing, hasn't it? Having had a skim through Ernie Shepherd's book, some of the 4-4-0s seem to bear a family resemblance to Furness Railway and Cambrian Railways locos of the same configuration, so perhaps there is scope there for investigation. John Mayne's kits look absolutely superb, and my concern from a personal perspective is that I'm not able to do them justice - I might have to sell a kidney and get them built by someone who knows what they're doing!

Incidentally, although this is definitely a case of "getting ahead of myself", and given that I'm planning a branch line which would have largely been worked by members the E Class, and given that this would be stretching plausibility to breaking point and beyond, which class(es) of locos would have been turned out in the blue livery? I do realise that they were types that would not have ventured down branchlines, but it seems like too good an opportunity to miss, and it could be a running-in turn 

I'm quite happy with the idea of scratchbuilding carriages, and from that point of view, a six-wheeler is less work than a bogie! I know of several folk over on RMWeb who design and print their own stuff, and some sell as well to help finance their own modelling. I wonder if it might be an option to approach them and see if they'd be prepared to take on a commission to make some really good carriages. What does everyone think?

With kind regards,

Mark

I believe someone called Sparkshot Custom Creations on shape ways sells 3d prints of the furness railway k2. Maybe one of them might work for a convertion?

[2996 Victor]

40 minutes ago, Jack O'Brien said:

I believe someone called Sparkshot Custom Creations on shape ways sells 3d prints of the furness railway k2. Maybe one of them might work for a convertion?

Hi Jack,

many thanks for your post. Sparkshot Custom Creations (aka Knuckles over on RMWeb) has a very good reputation for quality, although I've not yet ordered any of his products.

With kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Hi all,

According to Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, the MGWR's wagons were 6'-9" between their solebars. Can anyone advise what the Studio Scale Models etched W-irons measure over their outside faces?

Many thanks for any advice!

Kind regards,

Mark

[murrayec]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi all,

According to Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, the MGWR's wagons were 6'-9" between their solebars. Can anyone advise what the Studio Scale Models etched W-irons measure over their outside faces?

Many thanks for any advice!

Kind regards,

Mark

They scale 6'-9'' to 7' using the Expo Gauge OO Rule.

Eoin

[Mike 84C]

There's a guy on RM web rue-d-etropal who also has a Shapeways shop Recreation 21 and he does MGW 6whl Lav 1st and 6whl all 3rd both @ $69.60 coaches seem to be his forte as he also does several Ashbury designs for other railways. 

   Who is gong too be first to do a Clayton railcar!? thats there as well.  14 pages of stuff!

 All his models are in White Natural versatile plastic. Anyone got experience of this medium? Just asking before I  flash the cash!

[2996 Victor]

49 minutes ago, murrayec said:

They scale 6'-9'' to 7' using the Expo Gauge OO Rule.

Eoin

Many thanks, Eoin, I'm hoping to make a start on a wagon or two over the weekend, and without the W-irons I need to be able to gauge the amount of clear space between the model solebars!

With kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

19 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

There's a guy on RM web rue-d-etropal who also has a Shapeways shop Recreation 21 and he does MGW 6whl Lav 1st and 6whl all 3rd both @ $69.60 coaches seem to be his forte as he also does several Ashbury designs for other railways. 

   Who is gong too be first to do a Clayton railcar!? thats there as well.  14 pages of stuff!

 All his models are in White Natural versatile plastic. Anyone got experience of this medium? Just asking before I  flash the cash!

Hi Mike,

there's been a bit of a discussion on this thread Shapeways MGWR coaches 00 scale. Unfortunately, my own experience hasn't been encouraging, as the items I bought (a couple of years ago admittedly) weren't accurate for dimensions to published drawings and the WNVP material is poor at reproducing fine details, such that although he does a lot of interesting stuff I've not forked out for anything else.

With kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Before I set off on my first builds, which I'm planning to put on a Workbench thread, I thought I'd have a bit of fun with some number crunching! Using the figures in Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, I've come up with this amusing little table:

MGWR Goods Rolling Stock, 1900.xlsx

Its an Excel spreadsheet, so if anyone wants to generate similar figures for other years, simply plug in the vehicle numbers for the appropriate year and the formulae should do the rest!

Kind regards,

Mark

On thinking about it, here's a PDF for those who may not have Excel:

MGWR Goods Rolling Stock, 1900.pdf

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by 2996 Victor
PDF version added

[Midland Man]

Some lad made a 3D print of the Royal wagon I think but it's on this form.

MM

[2996 Victor]

Intrigued by the photograph of Ballaghaderreen on page 35 of Shepherd, and particularly the reference in the caption to the livestock bank and headshunt, I had a look at the 25 inch maps on GeoHive,. It was certainly a fascinating layout, you could almost say that in some ways it was "back-to-front", and although it was very long, far too long for the space I've got available, it's got some features that I may try to weave into my fiction.

Which leads me to another question for those who know: although Ballaghaderreen engine shed was a single road affair, how many of the MGWR's branches had two road engine sheds? From what I can make out, many seem to have been two road sheds, so were they allocated two locos each? Unlikely, I would have thought?

Thanks as always for any info!

Kind regards,

Mark

Edited April 25, 2020 by 2996 Victor
Link didn't work!

[Midland Man]

Good question only one engine in the shed and probaly a G2. I get you the Killina track plan or use geo hive

[2996 Victor]

Well, the road to the hot place is paved with good intentions, so they say. I've not made a start on my wagons today as intended, although I've made some notes and jotted down the leading dimensions ready for when I do.

Instead, I've been sat in the garden with my good lady enjoying the fine weather, and we're now enjoying an early evening snifter al fresco, Jameson's for me!

Have a good evening, everyone!

With kind regards,

Mark

Edited April 25, 2020 by 2996 Victor

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Intrigued by the photograph of Ballaghaderreen on page 35 of Shepherd, and particularly the reference in the caption to the livestock bank and headshunt, I had a look at the 25 inch maps on GeoHive,. It was certainly a fascinating layout, you could almost say that in some ways it was "back-to-front", and although it was very long, far too long for the space I've got available, it's got some features that I may try to weave into my fiction.

Which leads me to another question for those who know: although Ballaghaderreen engine shed was a single road affair, how many of the MGWR's branches had two road engine sheds? From what I can make out, many seem to have been two road sheds, so were they allocated two locos each? Unlikely, I would have thought?

Thanks as always for any info!

Kind regards,

Mark

There were plans at different stages to extend the Ballaghaderreen branch to Ballyhaunis on the Mayo Line which probabably explains the back-to front track layout.

A number of MGWR branch line terminals besides Ballaghadrerreen had single road engine sheds including Cavan, Clara, Kingscourt and Killeshandra . 

There are several good quality photos of Midland section branch line terminals, loco sheds and trains in "Great Southern Railways" an Irish Railway Pictorial by Donal Murray published by Ian Allen 2006.

[2996 Victor]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

There were plans at different stages to extend the Ballaghaderreen branch to Ballyhaunis on the Mayo Line which probabably explains the back-to front track layout.

A number of MGWR branch line terminals besides Ballaghadrerreen had single road engine sheds including Cavan, Clara, Kingscourt and Killeshandra . 

There are several good quality photos of Midland section branch line terminals, loco sheds and trains in "Great Southern Railways" an Irish Railway Pictorial by Donal Murray published by Ian Allen 2006.

Hi John,

Many thanks for this - that would explain the reasoning behind the layout at Ballaghaderreen. The proposed extensions aren't mentioned in the section of Shepherd's book devoted to the branch, although they may be elsewhere - I haven't read it all yet!

With kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

A quick question about wagons - are there any drawings of the MGWR's ballast wagons from the pre-1900-1905 period available? Perhaps in the Broadstone Series?

I've made a start on some open box wagons, which will probably be finished as loco coal wagons - I'll start up a workbench thread to document my muddling progress!

With kind regards,

Mark

[Midland Man]

The Broadstone series is quite mixed in dates as you have the 1899 serious good wagon with the brand new(in 1920 I  think ) goods van. Can not wait to sea the work bench and will your layout be a show or home layout?