Track Plan assistence requested

[Imahilus]

Hey,

I was hoping someone would be willing to help me out with a little bit of trackplan development. I used to mess around with model trains when I was a kid, and have been assembling some kits and assembling bits and bobs for a layout ever since. But now.. now I actually have some time, some inspiration, and some funds to actually put into a layout! And most important of all, some inspiration =)

But I'm coming up short when it comes to one thing.. and that is a trackplan for a little harbour scene. I'm building my layout under the following constraints: N gauge, 1950's(ish) so mostly steam but couldn't resist a class 08 shunter from graham farish, painterly look (hand-painting all buildings in a miniature for wargaming style), idyllic (limited rust and stuff, no vandalism, etc.), short trains (max 3~4 pieces of rolling stock) to maximise room for scenery, and planning to automate a lot of stuff (I also dabble with arduino's and raspberry pi's; I'm a software developer by trade).

The plan is to have a coal mine somewhere that loads of wagons with coal, and that they get delivered to this harbour scene where they get unloaded into a ship, where the coal gets transported behind the scenes back to the mine to be re-used to load the wagons. I'm aware of the difficulty of working with live loads, but that is another interesting challenge to solve another time. For now I'm wondering what a workable, minimalist, harbour trackplan could look like. I'll only have a single loading/unloading pier. Open to any suggestions for other things that would be considered essential for a (tiny) (irish / irish inspired) harbour like this. I'm not very knowledgeable about shunting and trackplans, and what would look 'realistic'. Any help would be much appreciated!

[jhb171achill]

Presumably if coal and 08s are the thing to use, you're going for a British rather than Irish prototype. 

Many of the coalfields in South Wales had quite cramped sites in the valleys, compared with, say, Yorkshire. Nice scenery in the Welsh valleys isn't in short supply either.

Perhaps some sort of coal yard, rather than a large and bleak-looking mine? A coal merchant's private siding complex? A privately owned steam engine would be possible, with BR's 08s coming along with laden trucks to be sent in there to be unloaded....

Larger BR locos (not sure what class in that area) could come in and out too with trains, and a 2-car railcar set could serve a nearby small halt.....

If Irish, we didn't have coal mines like that at all, in that timescale, other than the narrow gauge Cavan & Leitrim, which wouldn't be suitable for 08s....

A British 08 in N scale isn't hugely unlike a CIE "D" class shunter. Instead of coal, why not something very concise with a North City Mills-type industrial siding? Using goods vans obviates the need for the messy and fiddly transferring of loose loads in such a small scale.

Edited April 27, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Imahilus]

Hey,

thank you for a very insightful reply. I'll be using british locomotives like the 08 and steam mainly for price and availability, maybe somewhere down the line when I can actually enjoy the layout that I might look into getting Irish stock. I don't have a problem appropriating different areas into a 'fantasy' conglomeration, as long as things are rooted in a believable design. The landscape specifically will be very heavily inspired by the Irish landscape, the industries.. in this case I'd prefer to go more for space efficiency than historic accuracy, as long as the type is believable in the setting. For instance, what you mentioned, using things from South Wales, which also has breath taking landscapes and not too dissimilar looking from Irish ones. So for the coal mine I have no qualms about using a mine with a mine-head to reduce the impact of the mine on the surrounding land for instance, even if we didn't actually have such a mine, just to have more room for pastures and woodland.

You've definitely given me enough to ponder about that I hadn't even considered though, so many thanks for that!

[Mayner]

Using loose coal would be become increasingly dusty and dirty and may lead to problems with poor reliability, on one exhibition layout that used real coal, the coal turned to dust as the exhibition went and the operators started to look like miners coming off shift in need of a bath. I once had a layout with working overhead iron ore loading bins, the ore( a Woodlands Scenics coarse ballast)started to break up and jam the mechanism, in the end we had to use small hand held scoops to load the wagons, unloading was off scene!

One common dodge on layouts with coal mines or power stations is to have one train of loaded and one train of empty wagons running in opposite directions with the mine and covered unloading building on opposite sides of a view-blocker or backscene. 

[Broithe]

Triang/Hornby had a gravity unloading hopper arrangement for years. I did a set-up for a chap with a mine and a loading conveyor at one end and a power station with an unloading drop at the other.

Keeping it all working was a full-time job. 

Here's a description of how the dropping hoppers worked. https://www.southportmodelrailway.org.uk/page21/page117/page78/index.html

[David Holman]

Mayner is right - mechanised working loaders/unloaders are challenging things to make and run. There are some gems out there, but keeping such things off scene is much simpler! Wagon loads can be made removable, or just have separate rakes as Mayner says. Have used this approach on numerous layouts.

 On the other hand, effective loaders always draw a crowd at shows, so nothing wrong with having a go.

[Imahilus]

Hey,

I know live loading/unloading is generally ill advised because of all the reasons mentioned. But as David Holman put it, it's an eye catcher when you get it working. It isn't that high up on my list to do, as I'd want to get a semblance of a layout in place first (and as such could really use some help with a trackplan for this bit!)

I'm a software developer by trade, have messed around with robotics, arduino's, raspberry pi's, am learning to use my resin 3D printer, and have done a few years of mechanical engineering in college as well before getting a degree in software. Essentially; I just like the challenge to try and get it to work

The engineering side I can figure out, but to figure out what would have been in a small harbour like this and how they'd lay the tracks for it? That's where I fall short.

[David Holman]

Iain Rice's book 'Cameo Layouts' probably contains everything you need to know. Only came out last year, so should still be widely available. Covers most scales and nothing is over 2m long, often much less. Examples include harbours, mines, industrial, rural and urban settings. 

 The book is not just track plans though, it discusses baseboards, scenery, lighting, electrics, operation - the whole lot. Many of the idea were incorporated into my Fintonagh layout. Well worth having.

[Galteemore]

Agree, David! This year I spent a large amount of my modelling fund on books - mostly Wild Swan press. Money well spent. This was one of them, and I incorporated several ideas from it into my layout. I actually sold some books specifically to buy this one and it was a good move. Copies are a little rarer now as it’s become a cult classic. I can’t find it in the stocks of my usual second hand book dealers but Amazon have one s/h copy if you’re quick!!

[Paddy Mac Namara]

i like this little layout, my advice keep it simple for your first layout, also i'm shocked you left the mechanical engineering brotherhood to go to the dark arts of software.

 

[Imahilus]

I've managed to find a copy of Iain Rice's book 'Cameo Layouts' at some german shop and decided to order it despite the price, looks like this book is in short supply! Hopefully it will be as inspiring as you all make it out to be

@Paddy Mac Namara: I have a natural aptitude for software, and with the stuff that was going on at the time, easy choice, I still really enjoyed mechanical engineering though. I loved the material sciences. Interesting video you linked, extremely simple trackplan, do you really only need just a run-around track? and I'm a bit surprised the short stretch between the points is on the water side. Does that make it easier for shunting operations? (as much as I like trains and railways, I'm noticing more and more that I know very little about the whole railway thing)

[jhb171achill]

Imahilus, here’s a suggestion.

You want it small, dock setting and shunting-orientated.

1.   Sea (harbour wall)

2.   Sidings set in concrete or cobblestones on the quayside, for bringing wagons alongside unloading ships.

3.   Loco shed for dock shunting loco?

4.   Siding into some sort of small warehouse (a different / additional type of traffic?)

5.   Run round loop. 

6.   Platform road. 

7.   A platform - could be short passenger platform to allow, say, a two-car railcar set to shuttle back and forth, or a goods platform with warehouse.

8.   Line disappears through archway or tunnel mouth (like Cork) to go to / from a simple fiddle yard.

Edited April 30, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Imahilus said:

I've managed to find a copy of Iain Rice's book 'Cameo Layouts' at some german shop and decided to order it despite the price, looks like this book is in short supply! Hopefully it will be as inspiring as you all make it out to be

@Paddy Mac Namara: I have a natural aptitude for software, and with the stuff that was going on at the time, easy choice, I still really enjoyed mechanical engineering though. I loved the material sciences. Interesting video you linked, extremely simple trackplan, do you really only need just a run-around track? and I'm a bit surprised the short stretch between the points is on the water side. Does that make it easier for shunting operations? (as much as I like trains and railways, I'm noticing more and more that I know very little about the whole railway thing)

Good man yourself ! It’s a great book and you’ve inspired me to drag mine off the shelf for a look....it’s got just the stuff you want! 

[Glenderg]

@Imahilus What space would you ideally like it to fit in ? 

[Imahilus]

Hey Glenderg,

I just measured the ply I have for this project, and it's looking like I'll have 30"x12"~16", this should include the water, so it can't all be used for harbour sidings.

[Glenderg]

You could have a heap of industries, like boat yards, warehousing, distilleries, timber merchants. Fish going east and onward to the UK, all realistic in that timeframe. The main track would be about 6 ft long I reckon, in 2mm. 

2 minutes ago, Imahilus said:

Hey Glenderg,

I just measured the ply I have for this project, and it's looking like I'll have 30"x12"~16", this should include the water, so it can't all be used for harbour sidings.

Bugger, some compression required then !!! Richie. 

[Imahilus]

Holy sh... now that is a truely inspirational drawing, I have to say!

The station area in particular catches my eye, and not just because of The Fawls (the railway bar). I love how I can actually picture this looking in real life? (or in scale? I'm not sure now, my mind must be playing tricks). I think I can integrate this with a station idea I have. Best of all? I think I can make out what is what and why thanks to jhb171achill's drawing. There's just two abbreviations that I can't make sense of, RNLI and ES?

I think I have to do something with this drawing just from the sheer inspiration it gives, did this drawing come from some other project? or did you actually just draw all of this as per my request??

PS: the dimensions provided are just for the harbour bit, I can find other pieces of ply for different sections, but as I don't have the materials for a table right now, I have to stick to building individual scenes to be stitched together later

Edited April 30, 2020 by Imahilus

[Glenderg]

The RNLI would be a lifeboat station, with a slip way. The idea was to give the idea that there was something "beyond" the railway station, I'd imagine a proper dock of some sort further north, a bit grittier and more industrial. E.S. is engine shed and quite a few small stations would have had one.

I looked at Baltimore and sorta invented a town/small village around it. Market town like Mitchelstown combined with the fishing stuff like Warrenpoint, and just kind of imagined what it might be like as a workaday place, rather than a touristy driven place (at the time). Then kind of wondered where'd be the best place for a bowl of chowder and a pint, watch the world go by, but that's the Covid kickin in . 

I'll have a go at something more suitable for the smaller dimensions....! 

Richie. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Imahilus said:

 

I just measured the ply I have for this project, and it's looking like I'll have 30"x12"~16", this should include the water, so it can't all be used for harbour sidings.

Ah, I was imagining you only had a very small space. You'll pack in a full terminus station on that size of board.

[Glenderg]

Inches JB, not feet ! 

[Glenderg]

This is probably better scaled to your needs. I had this idea of a place where the railway was announced and all manner of developers came on board to build hotels and terraces of houses for the wealthy, which never came to pass. Idea was to have a terrace of houses overlooking the station, which would help a model in small scale. Track layout would suit your requirements too and you could have a village/small town surrounding it. Bit of shunting, bit of parked wagons on the loop, potential for a shunting game, even. 

[Noel]

Classic rural welch branch terminus format.

[Glenderg]

Nowt to do with the Welsh, just my imagination. 

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, Glenderg said:

You could have a heap of industries, like boat yards, warehousing, distilleries, timber merchants. Fish going east and onward to the UK, all realistic in that timeframe. The main track would be about 6 ft long I reckon, in 2mm. 

Bugger, some compression required then !!! Richie. 

Although the traffic was fish rather than coal Richies Plan reminds me of Iain Rice's Gairloch plan in Light Railway design, though it also reminds me of Torpoint, Craig and Madder Port all great examples of railway and harbour modelling.

While there is nothing really similar within an Irish context of shipping coal by sea, there were a couple of might have-beens to ship iron ore and coal from small harbours in County Antrim including a steeply graded line involving loops and switch backs from the Antrim Plateau to a pier in Redbay near Cushendun. The Antrim mining railways were narrow gauge, but who is to say they could have been to a broader gauge and worked as self contained systems like the slate railways in North Wales.

Although O Gauge PGHs Rm Web thread "MOVING COAL" a Colliery Layout contains practical solutions for loading and unloading coal on a model railway and might even inspire you to even try O Gauge 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76110-moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge/page/9/ 

[Galteemore]

That loco release with y points is a neat amelioration of the space-eating headshunt issue that can bedevil a small layout.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Iain Rice's Gairloch has long been one of my favourites. It's in his book on Light Railway designs, which contains several other gems. Glenderg's smaller design is a little beauty too. However, would consider swapping the locoshed for a siding, to increase operational capacity. Indeed, make it a kickback into the fiddle yard and you instantly have the opportunity to suggest all sorts of off scene industry, from mineral unloading, through fish dock, dairy, warehouses, military depot etc etc

[DART8118]

Using one of those suggested layouts, would there be merit in reversing the scenario such that shiploads of coal arrived at a port in Ireland, coal was offloaded to wagons and a mountainous coalyard, all for rail transport to industrial plants on/off scene?

8118

[David Holman]

Worth considering, especially as there weren't exactly a lot of coal mines in Ireland.

 Another thought is that Irish railways were pretty much the opposite of British ones in that the vast majority of wagons were vans/semis, rather than opens. Thus nobody knows whether they are full or empty!

[Imahilus]

Wow, am properly amazed at the response and the discussion going on

Definitely going to use your designs as a base, Glenderg! I'm fairly sure I can do a bit of a combination between the smaller one and the larger one, I do have additional space I can use, just not on the same base scene as the harbour, so that pub is going to make it in I'd say. Will post photos here when I get something down, though my progress is probably going to be slow enough considering this is my first time doing an actual layout. And I'll probably extend the amount of goods coming through the harbour as per suggestions (like fish, I have a lovely fishing boat by Artitec waiting for me to put together).

[David Holman]

Am sure we'll all look forward to following your progress.

[Galteemore]

Something about your project struck a chord with me and I’ve worked out what it was! Two chords in fact. One was a model layout ...this may be up your street....http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=6906&forum_id=21

The other was the prototype. I was a student in Edinburgh 30 years ago and remember that there were the remains of  a few stations a little bit like your concept along the coast, such as Granton and North Leith. The old station hotel at Granton is still standing, and might inspire a background low-relief structure, and old pics of trains there show other intriguing maritime bits such as lighthouses (as below) that could add interest ....may be worth browsing Google..http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_railways_dy_granton_west_harbour_road_crossing_1024.htm

,

Edited May 2, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

Hey Galteemore.

If you were a student 30 years ago you must have seen the last days of the Glasgow underground. Would make a good full seenic layout.

[Galteemore]

Yes. I enjoyed my occasional trips to Glasgow - Edinburgh could be a little rarified at times! Glasgow was a little more like Belfast...

[Imahilus]

Made a start with a platform and received some points to start figuring out exactly how to do the trackwork for the harbour. I might have to look into printing myself some semaphore signals, the only lower quadrant ones I can find in N gauge are by Dapol, and they don't appear available yet...

I'm going to keep track of progress on my site: https://frozenchaos.net/

Already had it and has been sitting idly, so why not use it as a place to track this stuff.

 

Anyway, my start at a platform:

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Imahilus

[Imahilus]

Finally, after a long long time... I've finally constructed some benchwork! Been wanting a proper train table for over a decade now.

With a slightly modified trackplan for the harbour (the printed plan was posted earlier in this topic by Glenderg), though I'm still doubting my modifications. Full story can be read on http://frozenchaos.net/?p=28