The Sligo to Larass branch of the MGWR (with a bit of help from the SLNCR)

[Angus]

1 hour ago, KMCE said:

I can give you some details of the model I built

Hi Ken,

Yes please, any details would be useful.

Thanks

Angus

[KMCE]

Angus,

 

Saw your question in my workbench thread & answered there.  But again here for convenience.

You can always shorten the tank, or lengthen the wagon and add in the headboards & strapping you were referring to in your post earlier.

My timber supports are probably a little too big on the model, however it seems to work, so I'm happy to leave it.

 Regards,

 

Ken

 

[David Holman]

Love all the detail in that picture.

[Angus]

Thanks Ken,

That is much appreciated,  although the  Sligo tank is somewhat different it is always useful to have some comparable dimensions to compare to.

Angus

[Angus]

No...I'm not planning on leaving...... apologies for the long ramble, I do get to the point eventually!

I've been struggling a bit with motivation of late and even with a few days off on leave last week couldn't quite bring myself to sit down at the workbench, a fact that lead to a certain amount of introspection.

Taking stock of what modelling I've got on the go at present:

I've a 2mm finescale Callander and Oban (Scottish West Coast) based module, part of a long term plan, underway in the garage.

This has stalled awaiting some building work to make said garage watertight and a more pleasant environment, the leak has already destroyed two layouts, I'm not letting it get a third!

I've a semi-completed 2mm finescale "cameo layout" based on a WW1 Airship base that was built for the MRJ Cameo layout competition. This sits in the room that I use as my home office, library (it sits on top of the bookcase) and modelling room.

Although this has been exhibited a couple of times it has several shortfalls. The original plan was drawn up for a 6'6" scenic section with a 1'6" fiddle yard. This was shortened to comply with the rules of the competition to 5' scenic section and 1' fiddle yard. Being lazy, to create the shortened layout I compressed the Templot plan by increasing the sharpness crossing angle on the points and reducing the run in from the fiddle yard over the stream. I also reduced the length of the loops to suit the shortened fiddle yard.

Unfortunately the knock on effect of simply increasing the crossing angle created some unduly tight curves (I now have a better understanding of how Templot works and could have avoid this with some simple adjustments, this is user error rather than a criticism of the software). As a result anything longer then a short wheelbase wagon is derailed by the coupler loop on the DG couplings.

The length of the fiddle yard severely restricts train lengths so I find the layout a bit unexciting to operate (combined with derailing issue due to the tight radii), I also made the mistake of using a MDF base, which has misshapen slightly with the application of water for ballasting while minor, given the small tolerances of 2mm finescale, does produce a bit of annoying roller coaster effect.

The result is I seldom operate the layout, and frequently come away frustrated when I do.

I also have my Dromahair module document elsewhere in the forum.

This was started for another competition entry and generated my move into modelling Irish Railways (not a cause for regret!). I am struggling with enthusiasm to work on the module, being only 600mm long it is  really being built for a one off show with limited operating potential. I am also conscious of shortfalls trying to model a real location without access to plans or a site visit to accurately capture dimensions.

My recent ponderings have concluded I need to replace the airbase layout and direct ditch the Dromahair module as it is not really fulfilling any modelling goal, but with what? I've already got my long term dream Scottish based layout underway albeit stalled awaiting garage repairs so something Irish would fit the bill. The Sligo proposal detailed in this topic would need a substantial amount of stock to be viable, this will take a long time to construct so I need to start with a more bucolic branch line so I can slowly  build up stock, however, whilst we're a bit spoilt for choice, none of the MGWR termini really lit any fires.

That was until a recent post by David Holman reminded me of an Iain Rice plan based on Westport Quay. So out came the measuring the tape and a few ideas were sketched up.

During the process I became aware of a couple of photos that have offered up some inspiration.

The first was of Bantry station posted recently elsewhere on this forum (apologies, I can't find the topic to link to)

The second was the view of Cahirciveen in The Farrenfore to Valencia Harbour Railway Vol 1 (P118)

This particular photo is snipped form this online article:

https://docplayer.net/122870130-Chapter-15-archaeology-architectural-and-cultural-heritage.html

I like the juxtaposition of the harbour, the railway and the town and whilst examining the track plan at Cahirciveen

it occurred to me that with some compression it could be converted into a terminus and if a turntable release was used at the end of the run-round loop could be squeezed in to the sort side of "L" shape I have available. This would allow a bit of a longer run in and also permit another small station to be modelled, this avoiding the "shuffle on - run around - shuffle off" on most terminus to fiddle yard layouts.

I was a bit worried about the turntable release at first but was then reassured when I found this arrangement at Edenderry:

and Athboy:

(all track plans above are lifted from the Government of Ireland's Historic Environment Viewer 25" to the mile historic maps)

Both are MGWR termini.

I've developed some thinking about where this mythical branch line would be located and some history but will follow up with that in another post.

Any thoughts so far? Is nicking a GSWR through station a step too far for an MGWR/SLNCR terminus ? 

 

[Galteemore]

Excellent Angus. Look forward to hearing more!

[KMCE]

As an option for the MGWR flavour, would you consider Newport.  Visually very impressive with the multi arch bridge over the river, the incoming line emerging from a tunnel crossing the bridge and entering the station. 

The road bridge on the North end of the station provides an excellent scene break with the opportunity to use a sector plate or traverser / fiddle yard depending on operating preferences. 

 

 

Looking North to the road bridge along the original trackbed.

Photos courtesy of Google Maps.

 

A view of the original station from OSI historical maps

 

Although not in my area of interest, it was a station that I thought would provide some excellent visual and operational potential and thus a good layout.

Just a thought

Ken

 

[Angus]

Hi Ken,

Funnily enough Newport was on the list originally, some of the scenes in JHB's Rails to Achill are very inspiring. I really want to avoid modelling a real location to slavishly, rather use it as a basis for overlaying the scene I want to model. My worry with Newport is that it would too identifiable and so look odd if not modelled accurately, that said I probably have the same issue using Cahirciveen!

Edited March 7, 2022 by Angus

[Westcorkrailway]

6 minutes ago, Angus said:

Hi Ken,

Funnily enough Newport was on the list originally, some of the scenes in JHB's Rails to Achill are very inspiring. I really want to avoid modelling a real location to slavishly, rather use it as a basis for overlaying the scene I want to model. My worry with Newport is that it would too identifiable and so look odd if not modelled accurately, that said I probably have the same issue using Cahirciveen!

Obviously I’m going to suggest eith my CBSC bias, so here is a rundown of the lot. a lot of there terminus are very edible. macroom shared similarities with dugort harbour in that very spacious design

 

Kinsale is more limited being closed in 1931. But certainly some changes can be made to that date if necessary. I plan to do kinsale, possibly in 7mm in the future 

clonakikty is probably a very easy one to pull off. It’s backdrop being famous for its views down onto the harbour 

 

Baltimore is not one I personally have seen done before very few buildings around it to make it “look right” easier

 

courtmacsherry…….needs no introduction. Many have considered it and some have succeded in making it in the last 

they lads across the water have made such a great model of bantry already, there thread is worth investigating too

[David Holman]

Rice's Westport Quay is just one many clever ideas from the design guru. Have always liked his pier terminus in the Scottish section of his light railway book that is worth a look.

[Angus]

7 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Have always liked his pier terminus in the Scottish section of his light railway book that is worth a look.

Hi David,

that is exactly the plan I was referring to earlier in the post above. I was contemplating it as drawn with the addition of the obligatory turntable for Irish operation. I realised whilst it fulfilled the scenic potential operationally there was a lot of "dead" layout. The extension through the the quays would only be used for occasional shunts meaning half the layout would used intermittently in operation with most trains coming on and going off scene without the benefit of the longer run. One of the things I like about 2mm scale is being able to give a sense of journey. shunting layouts and small terminus to fiddle yard layouts I feel are better suited to larger scales (as I've found to my cost).

[Angus]

40 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

courtmacsherry…….needs no introduction.

Hi West Cork,

Courtmacsherry is another iconic location, those photos of Sunday excursions shortly before closure with new shiny silver (not for long!) C classes hauling decrepit six wheeled carriage stock are what made me start my C class model. Again though, is it too iconic and recognisable to be moved elsewhere? I like the Cahirciveen plan because it is "busy" without being over complex.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Angus

[Mayner]

I always liked Cahirciveen mainly because of its compact nature and scenic location with a lot of trackwork crammed in between the level crossing and the high ground at the Valencia end of the station. I am surprised that Jim Harrison or Iain Rice did not come up with a West Country, Welsh, Scottish version's.

Cahirciveen certainly had elements of Tor Point or Craig about it with the station hemmed in between the sea wall with the town as a scenic background, the line to Valencia Harbour could be treated as staging or a fictitious goods only "Harbour Branch".

I suppose I could do a Rice and use Cahirciveen as the inspiration for an EM or P4 light railway station and harbour branch some place in South West Scotland, the Llýn Peninsula or remote part of the East Anglian coast.  

 

.

 

[Galteemore]

I’ve always liked the Galloway branches in Scotland. Much less well known than their Highland counterparts but totally charming. Not much help for an Irish layout, perhaps, Angus, but their compact nature to fit in with a rugged landscape that was pricey to flatten might offer something which allows more of a scenic run-in.
 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Galteemore

[Northroader]

Cahirciveen was the first bit of Ireland I “knew” as it was featured as Prototype Layout No.3 in the early “Railway Modeller”, placing it in the early 1950s (sorry I cant be more specific) It was the terminus for some time before the line was finally finished to Valentia Harbour, so kept the engine shed and turntable.

Recently Ernie has put an album of pictures of the branch on Flickr, some of them breathtakingly beautiful, and doing it in N should give you the chance of some plain line running through this.

i think it could form a setting for any of the old Irish firms without embarrassment, including the SLNC?

Me, I’ll miss the Blimp.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Northroader

[Angus]

12 hours ago, Galteemore said:

I’ve always liked the Galloway branches in Scotland.

Indeed and also well represented in Mr Rice's writings. The timber bridge on my airship base layout is based on the one on on the Kirkcudbright branch. Plenty of inspiration there!

[Angus]

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

i think it could form a setting for any of the old Irish firms without embarrassment, including the SLNC?

Thanks Northroader, once the key visual cues of the RIC Barracks and approach viaduct are removed I am hopeful of a degree of anonymity.

So that just leaves where to locate the plan.....

It was the SLNCR that drew me into an interest in Irish railways so that line needs to be present along with my other main Irish interest the MGWR. This means the sweet spot stays around Sligo, especially as I can add in the WL&WR with a smattering the the GSWR post take over. 

Looking around the area on Google Earth I notice a couple of beaches near Sligo on Ballysadare Bay around what is now call Strandhill. A bit of nosing around Wikipedia (so what follows may be of questionable accuracy) it appears the Standhill area was developed in the 1890 to exploit the beachside location. No doubt the presence of Knocknarea hill crowned with Queen Medb's grave added to the attractions.

So what would have happened if in a search for a locality to build one of their hotels to generate more traffic the MGWR got there first, in say the mid 1850s? Is it too implausible that the SLNCR, then desperate to increase receipts, also scraped a few coppers from the bottom of the piggy bank to contribute (no doubt another loan from their benefactor and main investor Mr Morrison, gallantly trying to get a return on his money).

The period maps show no real villages of any note (but then when has that stopped Irish Railway promotors?) so I've chosen a 6 mile route that skirts around Knocknarea with a couple of intermediate stations and a junction onto the Sligo station approach mainline at Magheraboy.

The name Strandhill doesn't really work for me, fortunately there appears to be an earlier name of Larass (An Leathros) which suites better.

The first intermediate station heading from the terminus back to Sligo will be named after the local beach at Culleenamore. This station will also help generate traffic as a regular horse race was held on the beach from the 1850s (Wikipedia again so could be complete nonsense....).

The area is also noted for its oyster beds which will give another traffic flow. Once the quay side is built there will be some trade in fish to.

Dublin excursion traffic can reach directly with a reversal at Sligo, ordinary services would connect to the local branch train. The SLNCR can provide a through service to Enniskillen reversing at Sligo with the possibility of through GNR coaches from Derry and Belfast. 

I'm not planning to use any of the local geography or buildings apart from maybe Knocknarea on the backscene, the sea and quayside at Larass/Strandhill will be on the wrong side for a start!

The above narrative is meant as a backstory to generate traffic and root into the train services of the area. The company ownership will define the infrastructure I just need to select and find appropriate buildings and plans.

I may leave the carriage shed as is though as I can see a lightly doctored Peco kit for that.

I can already visualise the engine shed area with an MGWR stone built shed and fortress water tower and coal stage. 

[Northroader]

I know I’m a total Philistine, but I’m afraid I never worry about searching for a “back story”, if I fancy what I’m looking at, in it goes. It would be nice to get up that way and look round, though.

[Angus]

Hi Northroader,

Each to their own, what ever works for you.

I've always preferred layouts with a backstory as it seems to generate a more credible scene. I do accept that this can be at the expense of the overall scene and effect. There are many dull but worthy layouts alongside wonderful fights of fancy. 

I also like the research that the grounding in reality brings, I just have to stay alert to letting it become too constraining and then spoiling the overall effect.

7 hours ago, Northroader said:

It would be nice to get up that way and look round, though.

 

I couldn't agree more, a cycle holiday to visit the Greenways is on the to do list. Whether this becomes a reality is another question!

[David Holman]

Whisper it quietly, but I have also pored long and hard over that area and it is one of several where Northport Quay might be. Others are Broadhaven, to the east of Belmullet and any number of potential harbours along the coast between there and back to Sligo! Have also wondered, had anyone wanted a link from Sligo to Ballina, then a short line from the Burma Road (say Swinford to Foxford) could make an interesting model. Another thought is to use the Sligo quayside branch, extending it along the shore to Strandhill that way. 

 Whatever - for me, this sort of engineering is very much part of the fun. It also, as you say, creates the reasons for a railway being built - the traffic and revenue, both passenger and freight, which of course equals the models that can be made. With 2mm scale offering a different perspective in terms of how space can be used, it sounds a fantastic project.

 

[StevieB]

Another ‘might have been’ would be a line from Manorhamilton to Bundoran. The 1957 closures would have forced CIE’s hand to retain a rail link to Bundoran and Ballyshannon.

Stephen

[Angus]

11 hours ago, David Holman said:

Another thought is to use the Sligo quayside branch, extending it along the shore to Strandhill that way. 

Hi David, 

I did consider that route but didn't like the reversal leaving Sligo to get back down the line the quayside, there isn't enough space to get a curve directly from the station onto the branch. I do appreciate exactly that reversing move was used by trains traveling to Clifton on departing Galway station, but always thought that would be something to be avoided!

9 hours ago, StevieB said:

Another ‘might have been’ would be a line from Manorhamilton to Bundoran

Indeed Stephen! That's tempting and the line has been done in 3mm scale (I think) but I really needed a terminus as the short leg of the L on the plan above ends at a chimney breast. There's no chance of a fiddle yard beyond.

[jhb171achill]

I was in the National Archives yesterday and by accident I came across a file dating from about 1900, in which a Collooney - Killala railway was suggested…

[Angus]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:01 PM, jhb171achill said:

I was in the National Archives yesterday and by accident I came across a file dating from about 1900, in which a Collooney - Killala railway was suggested…

I sometimes think that if you drew a line between any two Irish towns you could find a railway proposal that matched! 

I know they many were promoted for the greater good of what we would now consider economic stimulus to alleviate extreme poverty but most appeared to based on blind hope alone! 

Still rich pickings for us models and a fascinating history to investigate. 

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Angus said:

I sometimes think that if you drew a line between any two Irish towns you could find a railway proposal that matched! 

I know they many were promoted for the greater good of what we would now consider economic stimulus to alleviate extreme poverty but most appeared to based on blind hope alone! 

Still rich pickings for us models and a fascinating history to investigate. 

This particular one, for anyone interested who can attend the National Archives in Bishop Street, Dublin, is among the Office of Public Works (OPW) records, reference OPW 1191/26. Title is "Collooney, Ballina & Belmullet Railway" dated 1909-26.

Yes, indeed, there were MANY proposals never built!

[David Holman]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

This particular one, for anyone interested who can attend the National Archives in Bishop Street, Dublin, is among the Office of Public Works (OPW) records, reference OPW 1191/26. Title is "Collooney, Ballina & Belmullet Railway" dated 1909-26.

Yes, indeed, there were MANY proposals never built!

Sounds like the one I have built!

[Andy Cundick]

 A point to watch with some of Ians designs is that when you go to build them you find everything is a bit on the tight side,many moons ago i built his "Etterick"  design but transplanted it to the Welsh borders as "Tallylyn Road"  and built to EM standars and ended up leaving out several features because there was not enough room.The basic concept was fine however and it saw many shows plus a feature in British Railway  Modelling,before age caught up with.Funnily enough i've just exhibited its successor which is a Scottish branch terminus.Lochty which was the terminus of the East Fife Central Railway operated by the North British.It was a line with great intentions but ran out of money and ended up finishing in field in the middle of nowhere.Post closure it was run for ten or so years as the Lochty Private Railway ,main rolling stock consisting of "Union of South Africa" and a Coronation observation coach,definitely a prototype for everything!.Andy 

[Angus]

7 hours ago, David Holman said:

Sounds like the one I have built!

Presumably you are running the daily minimum service stipulated in the enabling act David? 

[Angus]

5 hours ago, Andy Cundick said:

 A point to watch with some of Ians designs is that when you go to build them you find everything is a bit on the tight side,many moons ago i built his "Etterick"  design but transplanted it to the Welsh borders as "Tallylyn Road"  and built to EM standars and ended up leaving out several features because there was not enough room.The basic concept was fine however and it saw many shows plus a feature in British Railway  Modelling,before age caught up with.Funnily enough i've just exhibited its successor which is a Scottish branch terminus.Lochty which was the terminus of the East Fife Central Railway operated by the North British.It was a line with great intentions but ran out of money and ended up finishing in field in the middle of nowhere.Post closure it was run for ten or so years as the Lochty Private Railway ,main rolling stock consisting of "Union of South Africa" and a Coronation observation coach,definitely a prototype for everything!.Andy 

Hi Andy, 

I think most track plans suffer from that. It is easy to get a bit optimistic about what can fit with a pen and paper. Cyril Freezer's plans being a case in point! 

I always flesh my plans out first in planning software such as Anyrail. This allows a lot of quick adjustment. 

Once I've proven the concept and got the layout roughed out I move over to Templot. 

Once in Templot it is surprising what can achieved using bespoke geometry to ease curves and create a more sinuous line. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Angus

[Galteemore]

37 minutes ago, Angus said:

Presumably you are running the daily minimum service stipulated in the enabling act David? 

Just what these are for ! 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Galteemore

[Andy Cundick]

3 hours ago, Angus said:

Hi Andy, 

I think most track plans suffer from that. It is easy to get a bit optimistic about what can fit with a pen and paper. Cyril Freezer's plans being a case in point! 

I always flesh my plans out first in planning software such as Anyrail. This allows a lot of quick adjustment. 

Once I've proven the concept and got the layout roughed out I move over to Templot. 

Once in Templot it is surprising what can achieved using bespoke geometry to ease curves and create a more sinuous line. 

My planning is a bit more basic comprising of a sheet of ply 3 foot steel rule and a pencil.Andy

[Angus]

2 hours ago, Andy Cundick said:

My planning is a bit more basic comprising of a sheet of ply 3 foot steel rule and a pencil.Andy

Your a better man than me Andy, I need software to do it for me! 

[Colin R]

Hi Angus a bit late coming to this thread, but yes I have as yet to visit the part of Ireland I want to model. Being a fan of the 3ft gauge Donegal Railways, I can say that there where at least four extension railways proposed by the board of works to decongest the Donegal area most would have linked to either the County Donegal or the Lough Swilly Railways.

As has been discussed elsewhere on here and above, it would be possible to model anywhere and given that you get the feel right most UK visitors at exhibitions can be fooled into thinking it is a real place.

Currently I don't have the space I want for a layout, but I have been buying etches kits just in case they are stopped being make such as the the Backwoods Miniatures (I only have a few more to get, but I am just waiting for the owner of a couple of these kits to give me the nod).

The next stage is getting all the details of the buildings right, this is the bit which is taking the time to sort out, as all the prototype buildings have been flatten and so far no architectural drawings have come to light, while this may be a problem when you start to look into it, however you may find that many companies have a sort of house style, so it would be possible to use another station from the same company and it would not look to much out of place.

Also I forgot to say that another important factor is real history, in the early 1920 to 30's, the Donegal and the Swilly had discussions about a merger, sadly it did not happen, but in my mind it did and a number of proposed extensions also got built, up to the second world war.

For what it is worth my big layout will be based on Stranorlar on the Donegal, but it also has an extension with a new direct route to Letterkenny to miss out the boarder crossings at Strabane/Lifford and also at Castlefinn.

Another line on the wish list could have been one to Fanad Head and the Lighthouse, from Letterkenny. It could have gone via Rathmelton, Milford, Tawny and Port Salon, before it arrived at Fanad Head and the Port. It would have also skirted around the bottom of the Knockalla Mountains as well, so plenty of scenic work on the layout.

I hope I have given you a bit more inspiration rather than perspiration, I do look forward to see some of the results in due course.

Regards

Colin            

 

 

 

    

Edited March 12, 2022 by Colin R

[Angus]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:04 PM, Colin R said:

The next stage is getting all the details of the buildings right

Hi Colin, 

I can't remember who said it, but it is a truism that  on a good model you should be able to tell the period and the operating company without any rolling stock present.

It is easy to get this wrong, for example in my enthusiasm above I've noted the view of the Cahirciveen shed area stating I was just going to swap the corrugated shed for a stone MGWR one.

The problem is that the majority of MGWR termini that had engine facilities had two road sheds. The exception being Ballaghaderreen and Kingscourt. The later looks to house two engines in a long single road shed rather use two roads; so if I want to create an MGWR atmosphere I should use a two road shed.

As there is also a lovely drawing of the attractive corrugated station building at Cahirciveen in the Valcencia Harbour book. It is tempting to use that, however the MGWR seems to have been quite generous in bestowing stone station structures onto its branch lines. So an alternative will be needed.

This has led me to ponder the buildings. For the small station I am thinking of using SLNCR structures for the station building and goods shed, partly because I've got a part built good shed for Dromahair and there is card kit that can be photo copied down for Florencecourt. For the larger I need to source some MGWR structures. I notice the is an MGWR architectural drawing set available from the IRRS. Does anyone know the contents? It is quite steep at £70 for the set (although does contain 80 drawings).

I've sourced some etches for the turntable deck based on a 50' Cowans Sheldon unit as installed at Carstairs in Scotland. It is bit bigger than I wanted but scale turntables are hard to come by in 2mm scale, and far better than the commercial alternative (the smallest I can find at 150mm would be a 75' unit!).

I'll need to build this first as without a reliable turntable the whole plan doesn't work. The engine release on the run round loop needs the turntable operational, so definitely not a nice to have!

[Galteemore]

Interesting, Angus. Worth noting, perhaps, that the SLNC beyond Dromahair had corrugated buildings (the money running out?). Florencecourt’s goods facilities were also fairly unpretentious, being a mix of brick and wiggly tin. Images courtesy Ciaran Cooney