EMD EX?

[Judas]

Does anyone know anything about this? Especially the data sheet.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Judas said:

Does anyone know anything about this? Especially the data sheet.

If it's 5'3", it's almost certainly Brazilian.  I know someone who knows a bit about the railways there who might know. At 600hp, it would be a shunter. I wonder if it was built!

Edited June 9, 2020 by jhb171achill

[patrick]

Looks like a six axel version of a BL2.                       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_BL2      

[Mayner]

Possibly a proposal a late 1940s proposal for a light axle load branch line loco for Brazil, Australia or possibly CIE.  A number of CIE board members and senior managers visited American in the mid-1940s no doubt visiting General Motors and the returned convinced of the benefits of replacing steam with diesel.

The BL2 design was dead end and quickly replaced with the GP7 the first of the classic General Motors Road Switchers or General Purpose locos.

The Brazilian locos appear to be mainly standard American domestic and export designs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Diesel-electric_locomotives_of_Brazil.

Victoria preferred locally assembled GM types.

South Australia a mixture of locally assembled Alco & English electric types.

600hp was a fairly common power rating for branch line and secondary work during the 1940s and 50s, Clyde Engineering introduced a 600hp version of the EMD GL8 type for shunting and branch line use in Victoria and Western Australia during the 1960s

[Judas]

17 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If it's 5'3", it's almost certainly Brazilian.  I know someone who knows a bit about the railways there who might know. At 600hp, it would be a shunter. I wonder if it was built!

All I know it was proposed to CIÉ, could've been the original 121 class

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Judas said:

All I know it was proposed to CIÉ, could've been the original 121 class

Interesting.

When I cleared out the papers of the late Marcus Bailie-Gage some years ago, there was much in the way of (sadly, damp-destroyed and rat-chewed) brochures from GM and also other diesel loco manufacturers in the 1950s, all relating to their proposed sales to the GNR in Dundalk, where MBG was the Works Manager.

I didn't see one exactly like this, but I did see others not dissimilar. MBG told Senior at one stage that had the Northern government seen fit to cough up, they proposed ordering diesels to trial on Belfast - Cavan and Enniskillen. Imagine one of those things above with a string of old wooden GNR coaches - a bizarre thought...... 

[Judas]

11 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting.

When I cleared out the papers of the late Marcus Bailie-Gage some years ago, there was much in the way of (sadly, damp-destroyed and rat-chewed) brochures from GM and also other diesel loco manufacturers in the 1950s, all relating to their proposed sales to the GNR in Dundalk, where MBG was the Works Manager.

I didn't see one exactly like this, but I did see others not dissimilar. MBG told Senior at one stage that had the Northern government seen fit to cough up, they proposed ordering diesels to trial on Belfast - Cavan and Enniskillen. Imagine one of those things above with a string of old wooden GNR coaches - a bizarre thought...... 

A bizzare yet interesting thought, thanks for telling me!

[minister_for_hardship]

The same data sheet is in the appendix to the E. Shepherd Turfburner book.

"General Motors ...as early as May 1947, offered their services, one of the suggestions being a Type EX locomotive.. Considerable correspondence ensued, right up to Sept 1952, in the course of which it became clear that GM would not supply completed locomotives, but expected CIE to carry out work at Inchicore. In any event, the whole scheme faltered when the Government refused to make available the necessary dollars for the purchase."

Edited June 9, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

The same data sheet is in the appendix to the E. Shepherd Turfburner book.

"General Motors ...as early as May 1947, offered their services, one of the suggestions being a Type EX locomotive.. Considerable correspondence ensued, right up to Sept 1952, in the course of which it became clear that GM would not supply completed locomotives, but expected CIE to carry out work at Inchicore. In any event, the whole scheme faltered when the Government refused to make available the necessary dollars for the purchase."

The EX proposal would make sense in the context of CIE building the locos under license at Inchacore (possibly with an eye on potential export orders) similar to Clyde Engineering in Australia and Nohab in Sweden.

At the time General Motors focused mainly on the domestic and Canadian markets and GM do not appear to have built export locos in the States or Canada before 1953.

I don't know if locos similar to the EX were built for railways in other countries, GM  built some neat B12 cab units in 1953 for Brazil and East Pakistan https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:EMD_B12_locomotives#/media/File:General_Motors_Diesel-Electric_Locomotive_B12_FTC_SALV-ABPF_6001.jpg  and introduced  its standard G8 & G12 export road switchers which became a World Standard in 1953-54 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_G8. 

The Great Northern proposal appears to have been a G8, I remember seeing a diagram for an 875HP A1A A1A for the GNR in many years ago.  A G8 would have been too long for the Dundalk Works traverser, but a G8 or a G12 would have been excellent for working loose coupled goods trains over the Derry Road and the more heavily graded sections of the Dublin-Belfast Main Line.

GM introduced a light weight version of the G8 in 1960 leading to the introduction of the Irish B121 Class and similar locos in Asia, Australia and South American.

[RichL]

There appear to have been a few GM diesels trickled down to Mexico before 1953 like these F2 examples, but very few

 

 

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, RichL said:

There appear to have been a few GM diesels trickled down to Mexico before 1953 like these F2 examples, but very few

 

 

The F2s were a standard North American domestic model rather than a lightweight export design. 

Clyde Engineering adapted the F7 to Australian conditions in 1952 with the 5'3" gauge Victoria Railways A & B Classes

Certainly would have looked impressive on the Cork Mail or the Enterprise

[RichL]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

The F2s were a standard North American domestic model rather than a lightweight export design. 

Clyde Engineering adapted the F7 to Australian conditions in 1952 with the 5'3" gauge Victoria Railways A & B Classes

Certainly would have looked impressive on the Cork Mail or the Enterprise

Much heavier and more powerful locos than the lightweights though. An EMD F7 was around twice the power and twice the weight of a Class 121, in very round terms, on the same number of axles.

[Mayner]

GM concentrated mainly on the North American domestic market into the mid 50s hence the reluctance in the late 40s to build locos for CIE, the early Australian & Scandanavian GMs were basically scaled down versions of the F7 on A1A -A1A trucks modified to local conditions. The introduction of GM export models from 1953 onwards may have been spurred on by Alco's export success with its "World Locomotive".

A BL2 on an SD7 or SD9 chassis in CIE green or a GM inspired colour scheme would be an interesting talking point on an Irish layout.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

GM concentrated mainly on the North American domestic market into the mid 50s hence the reluctance in the late 40s to build locos for CIE, the early Australian & Scandanavian GMs were basically scaled down versions of the F7 on A1A -A1A trucks modified to local conditions. The introduction of GM export models from 1953 onwards may have been spurred on by Alco's export success with its "World Locomotive".

A BL2 on an SD7 or SD9 chassis in CIE green or a GM inspired colour scheme would be an interesting talking point on an Irish layout.

I have a German V100 bo-bo which I got dirt cheap somewhere. Was considering putting it in CIE green as something they inherited from the GNR, as one of the designs the GNR actually WERE looking at, was outwardly similar.

[RichL]

Can't help thinking that the style of the Type EX and the BL2 hark back to the streamlined tank locos of the 1930s

South Manchuria Rly

and Germany..

At 600hp the EX would have been relatively underpowered as a road loco, even for its time. By them EMD had produced the NW3 and NW5 which were similar in concept, if not appearance at 1000hp, never mind the F3 at 1500hp which the BL2 was based upon.

[Mayner]

20 hours ago, RichL said:

Can't help thinking that the style of the Type EX and the BL2 hark back to the streamlined tank locos of the 1930s

South Manchuria Rly

and Germany..

At 600hp the EX would have been relatively underpowered as a road loco, even for its time. By them EMD had produced the NW3 and NW5 which were similar in concept, if not appearance at 1000hp, never mind the F3 at 1500hp which the BL2 was based upon.

The DRG61 and Pennsylvania Railway GG1 electrics were broadly similar in styling 

American locomotive builders shifted away from stream line carbody styling to the more utilitarian Road Switcher designs spurred on by Alco's success with the RS2 & RS3 designs in the late 1940s. The BL2 appears to have been a response to Alco competition with its early introduction of road switchers but quickly switched production to the utilitarian GP7.

It looks like the EX may have been a concept or proposal based on using standard EMD components for a loco suitable for Irish conditions and never got beyond the concept stage as it was not really a practical proposition and would have been very expensive to set up to build a small batch of locomotives at Inchacore.

The 600 hp engine is likely to have been forced on the designers to keep the axle load within acceptable limits to allow the loco to run on lightly laid branch and secondary main line routes. 

At an estimated 93.5 tons and 56' long the locos would have been very heavy and cumbersome for shunting or branch line work and underpowered for main line use, though possibly good for low speed heavy goods work.

It was simpler to modify domestic American designs like the F7 to Australian & Continental conditions due to the larger loading gauge and heavier axleloads compared to Ireland

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Mayner

[Judas]

On 6/9/2020 at 8:26 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

The same data sheet is in the appendix to the E. Shepherd Turfburner book.

"General Motors ...as early as May 1947, offered their services, one of the suggestions being a Type EX locomotive.. Considerable correspondence ensued, right up to Sept 1952, in the course of which it became clear that GM would not supply completed locomotives, but expected CIE to carry out work at Inchicore. In any event, the whole scheme faltered when the Government refused to make available the necessary dollars for the purchase."

 

You have the book? Is there a picture of the EX?

[minister_for_hardship]

6 hours ago, Judas said:

 

You have the book? Is there a picture of the EX?

Yes, just an identical data sheet to your one and the relevant text. That's it.

As above, I don't think it got beyond being anything other than a proposal.

[RichL]

I almost forgot that GM/EMD came up with other far-out ideas in the early 1950s, like the Aerotrain - lightweight bus bodies towed by a wingless aeroplane! Even this had 1000hp.

[NIR]

Well there is a big engineering overlap between trains, buses and planes...

[hexagon789]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:58 AM, RichL said:

I almost forgot that GM/EMD came up with other far-out ideas in the early 1950s, like the Aerotrain - lightweight bus bodies towed by a wingless aeroplane! Even this had 1000hp.

1,200hp I think hence the LWT12 coding, designed to enable it to run at 100mph though it was downgraded to 80mph fairly soon after modifications and struggled on gradients so required assistance from much more powerful locos to bank it. I believe two power cars survive.

[Judas]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:25 AM, minister_for_hardship said:

Yes, just an identical data sheet to your one and the relevant text. That's it.

As above, I don't think it got beyond being anything other than a proposal.

I don't have the full picture, out of the entire internet I found that scan. Would it be around if you sent the full page please?

[WRENNEIRE]

On the subject oe EMD, any info on this screwdriver?

Has the name Alexander on the clip

 

 

 

[burnthebox]

Alexanders birthday present, very useful with flat head screws..

[Broithe]

Customisable - http://alexandermc.com/product-detail/Pocket-Partner™-Reversible-Screwdriver/180 ...