Help with NIR Class 111 liveries

murphaph · July 24, 2020

Hi all,

I'm hoping to lay my hands on some of these lovely blue monsters somehow as and when they become available. I'd like to be up to speed on which of the MM liveries ran during which years.

Can someone advise for the following:

MM0111 (that's the light blue one with red ends)

MM8113 (dark blue with large yellow ends)

In my "Irish Traction" book there's a picture of 8113 down south in 1999. Would she have come south any earlier in that livery?

I think the red ends came before the yellow ends, right? Until what year did these locos carry the red ends?

Thanks a heck of a lot for any information you can provide.

I think I know enough about 112 being lent to IE etc. so it would be great if we could focus on the other 2, cheers!

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

20 hours ago, murphaph said:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to lay my hands on some of these lovely blue monsters somehow as and when they become available. I'd like to be up to speed on which of the MM liveries ran during which years.

Can someone advise for the following:

MM0111 (that's the light blue one with red ends)

MM8113 (dark blue with large yellow ends)

In my "Irish Traction" book there's a picture of 8113 down south in 1999. Would she have come south any earlier in that livery?

I think the red ends came before the yellow ends, right? Until what year did these locos carry the red ends?

Thanks a heck of a lot for any information you can provide.

I think I know enough about 112 being lent to IE etc. so it would be great if we could focus on the other 2, cheers!

How far south for 113? Not that unusual for NIR to lend one out particularly after the 201s were in service.

111 had the red warning panel as delivered and that's how it appears on the front of the second Doyle/Hirsch book (1981), afaik 112 did not and 113 certainly didn't.

Oh and the "8" was added much later to Northern Irish locos and railcars for the computer system as otherwise train numbers clssh with buses. Even now though not all carry the "8" on them but the inclusion of one puts things at mid-1990s onwards.

Edited July 25, 2020 by hexagon789

murphaph · July 25, 2020

Oh so ONLY 111 had the red ends? It would be really great to know when she lost those red ends to the yellow ones. Did she lose the red ends before the whole loco was painted in the darker livery with updated (more rounded) NIR logo?

As for (8)113 I am thinking way down south around Limerick Junction. I know it helped out on beet trains much later for sure (2003 pictures). My 1999 picture shows a Maynooth-Connolly passenger working.

Do you know when (8)113 got the large yellow panels?

Appreciate if you, or anybody else can shed some light on these questions for me.

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

Actually 112 seems to have had an orange warning panel as new. Found a photo of it in 1981 and it definitely looks a different colour to the deep red on 111.

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

34 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Oh so ONLY 111 had the red ends? It would be really great to know when she lost those red ends to the yellow ones. Did she lose the red ends before the whole loco was painted in the darker livery with updated (more rounded) NIR logo?

As for (8)113 I am thinking way down south around Limerick Junction. I know it helped out on beet trains much later for sure (2003 pictures). My 1999 picture shows a Maynooth-Connolly passenger working.

Do you know when (8)113 got the large yellow panels?

Appreciate if you, or anybody else can shed some light on these questions for me.

Maynooth-Connolly isn't far from the border so quite possibly she hopped across for the day, seen a few photos like that.

I'm probably going to get this off but I will try for as delivered warning panels:

111 - red panel (seems deep red)*

112 - orange panel (looks much lighter)*

113 - yellow panel

*they look a different colour to me but perhaps someone can confirm if they are

It seems yellow was standardised on after a few years and 111/112 painted to suit between 1982-84. 113 seems to have entered service with the later standard.

If you are modelling 1990s, all would be yellow panels anyway

Robert Shrives · July 25, 2020

Hi just to hinder but in Irish Railway memories - A decade of change 1984-1994 by Paul Heywood ISBN 9781840338195 has a great pic of a brand new 113 on page 43 on a test to Dublin and it has an orange panel - small like 111/112 , August 1984 or mid July 1984. It is also unnamed. I would say it is a darker blue than the french blue 111 was painted in the early days of operation.

Happy research

Robert

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

19 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Hi just to hinder but in Irish Railway memories - A decade of change 1984-1994 by Paul Heywood ISBN 9781840338195 has a great pic of a brand new 113 on page 43 on a test to Dublin and it has an orange panel - small like 111/112 , August 1984 or mid July 1984. It is also unnamed. I would say it is a darker blue than the french blue 111 was painted in the early days of operation.

Happy research

Robert

I knew it! I knew this would happen!

As soon as I typed out my reply above I thought: "I bet there's a photo somewhere that disproves that idea"!

So, 111 came out with red, 112 & 113 orange then? With presumably that change to yellow being only post 1984.

Given Mr Heywood has an excellent flickr account, I'm slightly surprised I've not cone across the photo unless it's unique to the book.

Robert Shrives · July 25, 2020

Hexgon 789 it is up on the web, hope ok to show but that is how it came up when I put link on this reply.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mjyrailphotos/galleries/with/72157684923669506 might be of use.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Robert Shrives
add info

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

Never mind, my fault. It is there but I overlooked it being in the Northern Ireland album even though the photo was taken in Dublin, link below:

Just now, Robert Shrives said:

Hexgon 789 it is up on the web, hope ok to show but that is how it came up when I put link on this reply.

Edit: Literally just found it myself, and posted as you did!

Robert Shrives · July 25, 2020

sorry about that mods ...

Robert Shrives · July 25, 2020

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/33471802856/in/album-72157622814077260/

Hi

Pic show a comparison between red and orange stripes.

Robert

hexagon789 · July 25, 2020

1 hour ago, Robert Shrives said:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/33471802856/in/album-72157622814077260/

Hi

Pic show a comparison between red and orange stripes.

Robert

Thanks for the link, and interesting photo. Personally though 112's panel still looks orange and nothing like that of 111 on the front of the Doyle/Hirsch book.

The Hunslets seemed to get the orange colour and keep it.

DiveController · July 25, 2020

I don't know for certain about the panel color but we have had many discussions regarding greens and oranges ( on rolling stock) on this forum,.... I didn't even mention those colors, pistols at dawn and all that... :shooting:

Any red panel is going to appear darker against lighter french blue rather than the royal? blue the they were repainted in later, red will fade to orange with time/use and color photos and printers color will vary.

I also have that edition of the D&H book and the MM model looks completely different, the model's blue color looks significantly lighter (and I wonder if the red is too). The Hunslet should have a red flash on the front cab but there seems to be several picture of this appearing orange.

One thing you'll need to remember about the MM 111 class model if that only 8113 has the newer LED lights iirc so if you're modeling prior to that time and want to renumber things you'll have to get either 111 and 112 and respray/renumber

MM0111 & MM0113 limited to 252 pieces, there may have been 504 of MM0112, I'm not sure. Work checking out Dave thread on 'Lima Models' p9

PAIR of hunslet crossing the Boyne,

Red and ?'orange flash' on the trailing loco

Edited July 25, 2020 by DiveController

DiveController · July 25, 2020

2 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

Hexgon 789 it is up on the web, hope ok to show but that is how it came up when I put link on this reply.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mjyrailphotos/galleries/with/72157684923669506 might be of use.

For comparison 113 2 years later with 'orange panels'

13.09.86 Dublin Connolly 113 (NIR) and 031

murphaph · July 25, 2020

I think the red has just faded indeed. It's mottled looking. If it had been resprayed orange even immediately after the first picture I doubt it would be so bleached already by the time the second had been taken.

Edited July 25, 2020 by murphaph

DiveController · July 25, 2020

53 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I think the red has just faded indeed.

Exactly, 112 was delivered with 111 in 1981 and i seen her in 1983 with her red panel and rake of Mk2s in the older NIR livery (yet to receive their tippex stripe above and below the blue band. She kept the red panel until at least 1993 (seen in Lisburn that year)

However 113 had a red panel until at least 1988 but was frequently seen on Enterprise services to Connolly and there are several photos of her at various points with the yellow panel at latest by 1990

HOWEVER, I not sure when the Light blue livery changed to the darker blue??

Edited July 25, 2020 by DiveController

murphaph · July 26, 2020

Yes that's an interesting question about when each loco went from light to dark blue. Anybody able to narrow it down?

hexagon789 · July 26, 2020

14 hours ago, DiveController said:

I don't know for certain about the panel color but we have had many discussions regarding greens and oranges ( on rolling stock) on this forum,.... I didn't even mention those colors, pistols at dawn and all that...

Any red panel is going to appear darker against lighter french blue rather than the royal? blue the they were repainted in later, red will fade to orange with time/use and color photos and printers color will vary.

I also have that edition of the D&H book and the MM model looks completely different, the model's blue color looks significantly lighter (and I wonder if the red is too). The Hunslet should have a red flash on the front cab but there seems to be several picture of this appearing orange.

One thing you'll need to remember about the MM 111 class model if that only 8113 has the newer LED lights iirc so if you're modeling prior to that time and want to renumber things you'll have to get either 111 and 112 and respray/renumber

MM0111 & MM0113 limited to 252 pieces, there may have been 504 of MM0112, I'm not sure. Work checking out Dave thread on 'Lima Models' p9

PAIR of hunslet crossing the Boyne,

Red and ?'orange flash' on the trailing loco

It's an intriguing one, because to me even allowing for livery contrast, 112 and 113 look clearly orange in their early years but 111 looks deep, dark red then later orange unless it really is just fading.

Robert Shrives · July 26, 2020

Just to say at the time of these locos being painted I worked on the Ffestiniog railway and I painted a large fluorescent/ reflective red exclamation mark on Glanypwll shed roller shutter door as it was thought less likely to be shot at then a bullseye stop roundel. This faded in about 5 years to an orange just as seen in the photo history of these engines. Perhaps a failing of the product in UV light.

I have just painted and older Resin 071 in the light blue - I call it french blue, with the older angular NIR and a small MIR yellow 111 style warning transfer. Is this right ?

Robert

DiveController · July 26, 2020

I don't think I've ever heard when the lighter blue changed to the darker on this forum and even in the shot you and hexagon posted above it is hard to determine how light it is.

If you told me the shot of 113 was later than 1981 and not just recently delivered, that would have seemed reasonable when you compare to the shot of 112 on the enterprise leaving Connolly above.

I think the photo technology of the time, processing, exposure & lighting can alter things significantly like previous discussions on orange liveries. Hopefully someone with a more intimate knowledge of NIR stock might help on the changeover dates from lighter blue to darker blue?

Edited July 26, 2020 by DiveController

murphaph · July 26, 2020

I'm pretty sure the logo was changed with the respray into dark blue though, right?

One other possibility is that the panels were originally red but the first attempt at respraying the panels failed with the red bleeding through somehow to give that mottled orange colour. Just a thought. I am no expert on paint.

DiveController · July 26, 2020

The 111s came with the thinner italicized (slanted-type) NIR log with sharp corners. In Jonathan's Allen book 35 Years of the NIR he shows the newer thicker NIR logo with rounded corners on the the locomotives after 1993- using images but no associated text that I noticed. Likely they were resprayed and had new logos applied at the next overhaul after that year. I'm not sure when the full height yellow end was applied to 113, much more recently maybe c.2003

Edited July 26, 2020 by DiveController
clarity

DiveController · July 26, 2020

Regarding venturing south, looks like 113 went on a test run to Limerick , then Waterford then back to home turf in 2003 and with the deeper yellow warning panel on the cab front. 111 was on a rail tour along the western Rail Corridor in 1990

Edited July 26, 2020 by DiveController

Robert Shrives · July 26, 2020

Yellow panels are a bit of a moving feast as well with yellow getting bigger on 113 and then shrinking a bit. 111 was small yellow until 8111 renumber but its larger panel looks to be smaller that 8113, with it starting higher up the front and 112 still small from pics seen. Also to add fun, and it cannot have been for long some pics of 111 on test with no logo on the side I spotted on internet today.

so much fun to be had with just three locos and a "common paint scheme."

Dhu Varren · July 26, 2020

Photo of 113 with small yellow panel in Irish Railway Rambler dated 6 July 1994. Photo in Irish Traction by Colm O'Callaghan shows 8113 with the large yellow panel at Drumcondra dated 16 Nov 1999.

murphaph · July 26, 2020

Could the change to a large yellow panel have coincided with the renumbering from 113 to 8113 I wonder.

hexagon789 · July 26, 2020

37 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Yellow panels are a bit of a moving feast as well with yellow getting bigger on 113 and then shrinking a bit. 111 was small yellow until 8111 renumber but its larger panel looks to be smaller that 8113, with it starting higher up the front and 112 still small from pics seen. Also to add fun, and it cannot have been for long some pics of 111 on test with no logo on the side I spotted on internet today.

so much fun to be had with just three locos and a "common paint scheme."

Seems like a good call to me, given the "8" was added mid-1990s for Translink's computer system.

I could always try the journals year-by-year to see if they contain any mention of changes to NIR 111 liveries etc

Dhu Varren · July 26, 2020

2 hours ago, Dhu Varren said:

Photo of 113 with small yellow panel in Irish Railway Rambler dated 6 July 1994. Photo in Irish Traction by Colm O'Callaghan shows 8113 with the large yellow panel at Drumcondra dated 16 Nov 1999.

The photo in Irish Railway Rambler is actually dated 28 June 1998, not 1994 as stated. This would suggest that the large yellow panel, together with the renumbering to 8113, happened in 1998 or 1999.

hexagon789 · July 27, 2020

Looking again at the journals, the new NIR InterCity livery is mentioned as being introduced progressively in the Feb 1989 issue.

Turning back to the 111 Class, 113 is mentioned in the Oct 1989 journal as having been 'repainted in the new "InterCity" livery - a deep medium blue with yellow end panels and red buffer beams'.

111 is mentioned as having been repainted in the next issue, February 1990.

112 is mentioned as being in for repair in the June 1990 journal and that it will be repainted in the new scheme.

111 is mentioned in Feb 1992 has having modifications to permit it to supply ETH (HEP), something I was never aware of - thought only 201s had HEP capability from new or otherwise.

June 1994 mentions 113 had yaw dampers fitted in 1993 and 112 is to be similarly treated.

June 1995, 111 gains its yaw dampers.

February 1999 records the introduction of 4 digit numbering on NIR by the addition of "80" or "8" to the beginning of numbers.

There are no further mentions of livery changes nor any significant changes to the 111 fleet bar overhauls etc going up to October 2003.

Hopefully some of that information prices useful.

murphaph · July 27, 2020

Very useful!

DJ Dangerous · August 28, 2021

Just bumping this up as it's suddenly very relevant due to IRM's new NIR coaching stock!

Is it fair to assume from @hexagon789's post that all three locos, 111, 112 and 113, had yellow panels by their 1989 and 1990 re-paints?

So they went from red panels to small yellow panels to large yellow panels to small yellow panels?

On 27/7/2020 at 4:35 PM, hexagon789 said:

112 is mentioned as being in for repair in the June 1990 journal and that it will be repainted in the new scheme.

Here's a photo of 112, dated 27th May 1990, courtesy of Adrian Nicholls on Flickr, presumably just before repainting with yellow panels?

And another of Adrian Nicholls' photos, showing 113 on the same date, deep blue with small yellow panels:

Edited August 28, 2021 by DJ Dangerous

BosKonay · August 28, 2021

Noel · August 28, 2021

3 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Just bumping this up as it's suddenly very relevant due to IRM's new NIR coaching stock!

Is it fair to assume from @hexagon789's post that all three locos, 111, 112 and 113, had yellow panels by their 1989 and 1990 re-paints?

So they went from red panels to small yellow panels to large yellow panels to small yellow panels?

Don't know, I've never had any of those MM NIR livery locos nor any need for them. NIR/UTA/GNR was never really on my radar. Only saw the smaller red flashes on online photos of NIR Hunslet and blue C class locos. IMHO looking at online photos the smaller yellow flash looked visually more attractive but 'eye of beholder' warning and all that sort of thing.

DJ Dangerous · August 28, 2021

11 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

So a Murphy Models 112 on an 8113 chassis, as per @gm171 kk's model, would be appropriate for post-June 1990, and Murphy Models 111 would be appropriate for pre-February 1990, more or less?

murphaph · August 28, 2021

Not entirely because the cab side window frame on 112 was replaced with an IE one while she was on loan to them in the 2000's I believe.

I've decided that the tiny details like this and lights and running numbers will probably never be 100% prototypical on my railway.

Swapping the bodies of 112 and 8113 would at least give a closer to prototype mid 90's 112. I hadn't thought of doing that but I might now.

DJ Dangerous · August 28, 2021

15 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Not entirely because the cab side window frame on 112 was replaced with an IE one while she was on loan to them in the 2000's I believe.

I've decided that the tiny details like this and lights and running numbers will probably never be 100% prototypical on my railway.

Swapping the bodies of 112 and 8113 would at least give a closer to prototype mid 90's 112. I hadn't thought of doing that but I might now.

@gm171 kk got the windows right, somehow...

I guess the windows also came from an 8113 donor.

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