Who Are The Box-Shifters And Why Are They So Bad?

[DJ Dangerous]

I've seen the term "box-shifters" bandied about a lot on the forum over the years.

I understand that Hattons are one retailer who fall into this category.

Who are the other "box-shifters"?

What damage do they do to the hobby itself?

I imagine that they make it difficult for smaller traders who have worse economies of scale, but that's the same for every market, and isn't really something that they set out to do.

If they are so bad, why do manufacturers supply them?

Looking at the 121 for example, this must be the fastest selling Irish loco to date, out of stock on pre-order etc.

If this hadn't been supplied to the "box-shifters", there'd have been more stock available through smaller, more expensive sellers, and maybe it would have slowed down the sales.

I'm not sure how that's a good thing for the hobby itself, but would obviously pacify anybody who missed out on pre-ordering one, so may benefit a few individuals.

[StevieB]

I think you’ll find that they’ve sold out what they pre-ordered, not sold out altogether. I’ve always found Hattons very good to deal with, no complaints.

Stephen

I think you’ll find the real rip off merchants are those asking astronomical prices on eBay. But, again like retailers, you don’t have to use them.

Stephen

[Galteemore]

The ‘box-shifters’ tend to to sell ‘boxes’ rather than ‘bits’ if that makes sense. So they are fine for buying big ticket items - often less helpful at supplying the miscellaneous smaller bits that modellers need. The sale of locos and other big ticket items helps smaller shops remain viable to supply those things like wire and switches and little pots of paint. 

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

The ‘box-shifters’ tend to to sell ‘boxes’ rather than ‘bits’ if that makes sense. So they are fine for buying big ticket items - often less helpful at supplying the miscellaneous smaller bits that modellers need. The sale of locos and other big ticket items helps smaller shops remain viable to supply those things like wire and switches and little pots of paint. 

Thank you.

The advent of the internet / online shopping is the real enemy of the little guy.

There'll always be a bigger guy!

So Marks Models are a "box-shifter" too?

[Galteemore]

Can’t comment on Mark’s  as I haven’t lived in the Republic since 2002, and NI since 06. I currently live near two small model shops in Buckinghamshire and they are great for supplying bits at fair prices. One may pay a little more for big stuff but it’s worth it over time -for convenience (no damaged locos in the post) and no £4 postage costs on a £1.50 pot of paint !

[DJ Dangerous]

5 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Can’t comment on Mark’s  as I haven’t lived in the Republic since 2002, and NI since 06. I currently live near two small model shops in Buckinghamshire and they are great for supplying bits at fair prices. One may pay a little more for big stuff but it’s worth it over time -for convenience (no damaged locos in the post) and no £4 postage costs on a £1.50 pot of paint !

I guess being as lucky as you are is probably the exception, rather than the rule. I would assume that most people face the choice of a decent trek to a model shop, or buying online.

So a "box-shifter" is a retailer who doesn't sell many specialist / niche items, basically.

[David Holman]

Wouldn't be without Eileen's Emporium for basic materials. My last order of sheet metal, nuts and bolts, wire and so on couldn't be got locally (at least not from a single supplier), even without lockdown. The service is excellent and they are good value too.

[Galteemore]

Yes, being mainly a scratch builder these days, I tend to have to use mail order too! But there are also many small High St model shops who are now using mail order to stay alive. It’s worth supporting them if you can. I also use Eileen’s and many of the other 7mm supplier community. That’s one of the big debates in our world - how to best support trade in supplying  kit and scratch build needs as RTR grows .....we really want to keep a diverse, mixed model railway economy if we can!

We sometimes visit the Kent coast for fish and chips and there’s a tiny shop in Ramsgate which supplies gamers. I have bought wire and metal angle when there as it’s much easier browsing his stock than trying to look at tiny pictures of wire online....

Edited December 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[flange lubricator]

I find the term 'Box Shifters "very derogatory these are legitimate business  who have retail shops and warehouses employ staff and pay taxes and must do whatever they can to survive and compete in some cases with sole traders / e traders  who employ nobody , don't have any real overheads some of them are operating from their attic or from under the stairs in the hallway and to them its like a hobby / sideline or a way to make a quick buck  . At the start of  the online explosion a number of years ago there were loads of these kind of traders no overheads no assets no stock but undercutting the retailers in the same market and a lot of them have fallen by the wayside and many of the retailers now have a very good online business supporting their existing retail offering . If you look at the stock holding of some of there business's and do the math it's a massive undertaking they are anything but box shifters . With IRM entering the market as a manufacture selling direct to the end user as well as to retailer's this is yet another dimension to the marketplace and possibly the future for railway modelling .

One thing to bear in mind when discussing Model Shops in Ireland and pricing like it or not ROI is a high priced economy we pay higher wages than in the UK  along with other costs and overheads that's the way it is , many a UK retailer has come to the ROI and tried to apply the cost model for the UK  and then got themselves  in trouble  for that reason . 

A good marketplace is made up of different traders which is good for us all , but calling some of them derogatory terms shows a lack of understanding of the subject .

To add to this with the final delivery of the 121 programme by Murphy Models I am happy to have  purchased some from IRM , Hatton's , Rails of Sheffield and Marks Models I will always support Murphy Models authorized distributors and legitimate business's . 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by flange lubricator

[Galteemore]

Yes it’s a diverse market which is what we need. If I wanted 30 wagons I’d use one of the big firms - as I have often done in the past. By way of illustration, this invoice arrived with some bearings and couplings this am. Old school - goods supplied and you pay on receipt!! 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

Personally, I’ve bought from Mark’s Models (as recently as yesterday) plus several “box-shifters” in England, plus private purchases, and fleabay in the past.

While I have a massive preference for buying from local firms, especially now when they need all the help they can get, friendly, prompt and efficient service with timely deliveries and good back-up in case anything might go wrong, takes priority over price.

Having said that, no matter how much I wanted something on fleabay, if the seller wanted some of the stupid prices occasionally seen, I would politely invite them to insert the item in themselves.......

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Yes it’s a diverse market which is what we need. If I wanted 30 wagons I’d use one of the big firms - as I have often done in the past. By way of illustration, this invoice arrived with some bearings and couplings this am. Old school - goods supplied and you pay on receipt!! 

Seems like a different world..... when I was RPSI treasurer for years, I paid all the bills by cheque, and wrote things like that out too.....(and diaried a note to ensure that the debtor coughed up!).....

[DJ Dangerous]

Sorry, Flangey, offence was not my intent. I'm just looking to see why retailers who don't sell many specialist items are so taboo, and so bad.

I'm sure there are many who will eschew Tesco, Super Value, Spar, Centra et al, and buy directly from the farmer, and I'm guessing that that is the core value that spawns the mentality that a "box-shifter" is bad.

I have to confess, I buy from Marks Models, Hattons, Kernow, Frizinghall, and obviously IRM, so I don't do anything personally to support the non-box-shifters.

JHB, cheques? Really? Are they those magical things that my grandparents had, where you could just write a random figure on a little stub of paper and it turned into money?

[Galteemore]

If you’re really clever you can make them bounce !

[flange lubricator]

26 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Sorry, Flangey, offence was not my intent. I'm just looking to see why retailers who don't sell many specialist items are so taboo, and so bad.

I'm sure there are many who will eschew Tesco, Super Value, Spar, Centra et al, and buy directly from the farmer, and I'm guessing that that is the core value that spawns the mentality that a "box-shifter" is bad.

I have to confess, I buy from Marks Models, Hattons, Kernow, Frizinghall, and obviously IRM, so I don't do anything personally to support the non-box-shifters.

JHB, cheques? Really? Are they those magical things that my grandparents had, where you could just write a random figure on a little stub of paper and it turned into money?

No offence taken what so ever DJ 

[Noel]

7 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

To add to this with the final delivery of the 121 programme by Murphy Models I am happy to have  purchased some from IRM , Hatton's , Rails of Sheffield and Marks Models I will always support Murphy Models authorized distributors and legitimate business's . 

Hear hear. Ditto. Spread it around. I've had excellent 'service' from Hatton's over many years, they have been much more than box shifters and the savings on big ticket items can be considerable (eg large amounts of track, locos, coach rakes, etc). Their postage to Ireland is excellent value compared to all the other UK retailers and costs half what one Irish Model shop charges. They also have an excellent website with useful features, vast variety of stock, easy to navigate and use. Postage is important when buying small items, say one needs a few wheels, a bag of fish plates, one pack of super glue, etc, being asked to pay more than €5 postage within Ireland makes it expensive unless one can wait to combine orders. They are all just businesses, employ people and service a demand. I do enjoy my bi-annual pilgrimage to Marks out in Greenogue, easy to get to, easy parking, good shelf displays so easy to find those bits and bobs for building and scenics. IRM have proven highly successful with their direct internet sales model, which benefits customers by cutting out the middle man, who in the past may or may not have added value anyway, selling direct enables higher quality models for lower prices to consumers. Win-Win. The attraction of model shops is local accessibility by road and on foot, and visual display of merchandise. The internet nullifies those and often has more detailed image display, but many consumers like the tactile feel of handling, visualising and inspecting merchandise inside an atmospheric model shop. There is nothing immoral about shopping around for a good deal, but it is nice to support your local sheriff as long as they are offering value, or the price difference is small.

[minister_for_hardship]

The sort of people who get sniffy at "Box shifters" are the same kind who turn their noses up at a beer unless it's hand crafted ethically by waxed moustached men in a cave in Antarctica.

Seriously, I couldn't dabble without mail order, what with cv19 restrictions and living nowhere near a brick and mortar model shop.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 4:22 PM, DJ Dangerous said:

JHB, cheques? Really? Are they those magical things that my grandparents had, where you could just write a random figure on a little stub of paper and it turned into money?

I've actually just written one - my annual sub renewal to "New Irish Lines"!

I used a quill pen, of course..................................

[connollystn]

Years ago 'a box shifter' meant something totally different.