Mol_PMB

Also 75 years of AEC railcars, briefly the Enterprise traction.

Still going up! At least the blue one is in new condition, as well as being a rarer livery.

Thanks for the info. It's sad to hear about Allen's health. About a year ago I ordered a G class kit and he delivered it to my door himself rather than post it (I'm only about 5 miles away from Worsley). He seemed fine at the time.

Definitely not one for the bargains thread; quite a hefty price for this light blue 111: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/147293908471

On that subject, the RCTS photo archive is another good source of images, such as this: RCTS Library & Archive If you go to the search, then choose 'Irish Railways (CIE)' in the 'subject' heading and you can then also filter by colour images, date etc. RCTS Library & Archive

Lovely, and many thanks for the pointer. Another source for me to trawl and reproduce on my various diatribes! Note that AEC 2630 is in the early BnT livery, though fitted with a driver's door in the normal BnT livery which nicely illustrates the difference in the depth of the orange band. And when I make some more progress on my CIE green livery thread and you all start thinking I'm crazy when I talk about green roofs, those West Clare railcars are a fine example.

My preference would be for fine details (e.g. door handles, brake gear) and potentially fragile parts (e.g. buffers) to be separate. They aren't very robust as printed components, more likely to cause a high reject rate and be easily broken when the model is handled. If I was building the wagon I'd replace them with metal parts anyway. Incidentally I found the original MGWR wagon diagram for these vans in the IRRS archive, along with diagrams for many other wagons.

There are a lot of practical considerations too. I don't see any electrical fit-out in your image, but you will need plenty of power sockets and good lighting, but preferably not direct sunlight. Effective layout lighting may not be the same as normal room lighting, also consider will you be working in your own shadow. How will the temperature and humidity in the building be controlled? If you include space for a workbench and power tools, they may have additional utility needs, for example a fume extractor for a paint booth, soldering station etc. Do you want to be able to walk into and around the space without ducking under anything? That may depend on your age and flexibility now, and also what it might be like in 20 years time.

Resurrecting an old thread I know, but there's a wagon diagram for these 12 mineral wagons in the IRRS archives. Drawing no. 14245, diagram no. 64. Noted on the diagram is that they were built by Hurst Nelson and were purchased from Messrs Murphy, Waterford, in 1909. The drawing bears a later CIE stamp dated 1946. Sadly CIE numbers are not given but it may be possible to find some in photos. The dimensions do not seem to quite match any of the (GB) RCH standards and these wagons may have pre-dated their publication. Note that the top two planks are continuous along the length of the wagon, and the side door comprises the lower 5 planks only, so these were true 'mineral' wagons rather than open goods wagons. They were quite rare in Ireland, due to the lack of mineral traffic, though there were some others used for loco coal.

Hopefully this thread isn't entirely the wrong place for a tank wagon snippet from the archives. This relates to a batch constructed by CIE using second-hand tanks from the UK mounted on second-hand CIE 20' flat underframes. It's another one of those things I wasn't really looking for, but stumbled across and thought might be vaguely interesting to someone. I assume these would have become some of tank wagons 26636-26652, 26730-26750, 606A-637A.

When I wrote the previous post I thought I had come across some information on carriage overhauls in the IRRS Archives last week. I've been gradually cataloguing all the documents I photographed on that frenzied Tuesday evening, and I have found several documents with relevant information. In July 1950, in a discussion about conversion of carriages from electric to gas lighting, J.J.Johnston (assistant CME) stated that 94 carriages had received a general repair (G.R.) between 1/1/1949 and 28/2/1950, which equates to 80.5 per year. In 1950 there were 815 coaches in the fleet so this would indicate an average 10-year interval for general repairs, which is quite long but may be indicative of the shortage of money and materials at this time. One would expect that that a carriage would be repainted at G.R., but additional vehicles may have been repainted without receiving a G.R. and this would shorten the average interval of repainting. In January 1961, a budgetary control statement gives details of the quantity of general repairs budgeted for, and those actually carried out: Adding together the different types of coaching stock listed, the budget was for 90 vehicles and the actual number receiving general repairs and repaints was 101. I assume this is for 12 months, but it's possible that the heading 'programme to date' indicates the financial year, starting on 1st April 1960 and in that case the figures quoted in January 1961 represent 9 months. In the latter case, the equivalent annual total would be 135. In 1961 there were 824 coaches so the repair interval would be 8 years or 6 years depending on whether the report covers 12 or 9 months. Fourteen buffet cars were introduced in 1953/54, with four more in 1956. Thirteen of them received general repairs in 1960/61 when the majority would have been 7 years old. So I think this evidence tends to support carriages receiving a General Repair interval of about 7 years. I'm sure the vehicles would have been repainted at G.R. but in some cases additional repaints might have been carried out between G.R. especially when new liveries were being introduced. The influence of new-build stock should also be considered - this would appear in the new livery without being in the maintenance records, replacing older coaches withdrawn probably without a recent repaint. One other snippet from the article 'Modern CIE Coaching Stock' by G. Kennedy, published in IRRS Journal 37, 1965: "Drab the bottle green may have been, but as late as 1957 some of the 1951 compos were observed looking little the worse for their long absence from the paint-shop." In other words, the new stock introduced in 1951 was still carrying its original paint job 6 years later. Going back to the budgetary control statement, the railcars were mostly delivered in 1953/54, and it's notable that 26 of these received body general repairs, with a further two receiving a 'paint and trim' repair. Again, these would have been 7 years old in 1960/61. However, I should also note that the railcars had more frequent repairs to their engines, transmission and bogies. In the archives there are some quite detailed records from the 1950s of which railcars received mechanical / general repairs, when and why. Poor availability for service seems to have encouraged this detailed assessment. The railcars also had more than their fair share of collisions and fire damage which required bodywork repairs and a full or partial repaint. I have not yet fully analysed this data and I may need to revisit that file in the archives. Sorry, I'm on still on statistics and haven't got to paint shades yet! But this stuff is important when we start to look at the livery changes and how long old liveries may have persisted in service after they had been superseded in the paint shop.

Welcome! That's a massive space for a model railway, and it will be a big project. It sounds like this will be the first model railway you have built, so you're on a learning curve. Despite the huge space available I'd suggest starting with something small so you can learn the techniques, and discover which aspects you enjoy the most (e.g. scenery / rolling stock / operations / electronics) as this will influence your priorities for the future big layout. It will also mean that the inevitable mistakes made whilst learning will be on a small scale, and you can avoid those issues with the later big scheme. Building a large and complex layout can be daunting for an individual - I speak from experience here.

Superb! I especially love the interior details and your home-made nameplate which is very effective. If I worked on that train, I'd definitely want a tea-making facility! However, I do note that there's a fair-sized black kettle permanently attached to the carriage. I expect the pay train had one or two regular crews and the staff in the carriage would have had a good relationship with the loco crew, so there would have been some collaboration on the provision and preparation of drinks and meals. It looks like you have modelled oil lamps which would suggest there wasn't a supply of gas on board for cooking in the carriage?

Thanks so much Ernie, these fit two of my current areas of research perfectly! The detail shots inside the cab of the J26 on each side are particularly helpful, as is the image showing open second 1368 (or it might be 1358) in late 1950s light green livery.

I know which of those 4-6-0s I prefer ... the one in the foreground

A little more preamble before we get to the actual liveries. In GB in the 1920s to 1950s period, a carriage repainting interval of about 7 years was common - this was the standard used by the LMS and GWR. The SR had a policy of using a light rub-down and re-varnish rather than a full repaint, where the condition of the paintwork permitted. The LNER just used varnish on their teak stock, of course. 7 years was only ever a nominal interval, and premier high-mileage coaches might get repainted more frequently while those on a sleepy branch line might stay away from the paintshop for longer. External influences such as wartime paint/labour shortages might extend the painting interval. On the other hand, a new company name, brand or livery might be accompanied by a campaign of repaints giving a shorter interval. Considering such variations, 5-10 years painting interval would account for the vast majority, and my impression is that this would be true for CIE in the 1940s to 1960s period. Some of the documents in the IRRS Archives include details of the number of overhauls and repaints carried out at Inchicore each period, and with further analysis it may be possible to confirm the typical painting interval. Of course, there were exceptions, such as: Vehicles that were modified, or repaired after accident damage, might get a partial repaint in their existing scheme even if it was outdated, or they might get an early paint job in a new scheme. I don't know if CIE ever adopted the 'light rub-down and re-varnish' approach, but if so this could prolong the life of an outdated livery. Some 'special' coaches were repainted more often - State coach 351 carried 4 different liveries in as many years in the early 1960s! So, once a particular livery had been replaced with a new one, we would expect that the outdated livery would still be seen in traffic for about 7 years, gradually becoming scarcer until it disappeared entirely. When we see a dated photograph of a freshly-painted carriage, it's very good evidence, although we must remember that the same paint can look different depending on the undercoat, method of application, lighting conditions and the surrounding colours. But when looking at photos of carriages that have been in traffic for some years, their appearance, colour and glossiness will have been influenced by weathering including dirt from loco exhaust or brake dust, reaction with chemicals in the atmosphere or those used for carriage cleaning, physical wear or fading from the sunshine. And that's even before we start to think about the sensitivity of the film to different colour shades, or how it has deteriorated over 75 years. Or indeed our individual perception of colours. Nevertheless there are clues, and by studying enough sources including contemporary documents the data starts to add up. In particular, some of the paint colour changes were accompanied by a change in the style of lettering or lining, and this can be determined even when the paint is weathered or the photo is monochrome. Here's a super photo from Ernie dated July 1955, illustrating some of the green livery variants. The 4th coach, an old GSWR vehicle, carries the first CIE livery used from 1945 to about 1950/1, dark green with 2 broad bands of eau-de-nil and fine black/white lining, 2 snails, and 1/3 class digits on the doors. The 2nd and 5th coaches are fairly new, built by CIE in 1952, and they carry the 1950-1953 plain dark green livery with no lining or snails, and class digits 1 only. This green is sometimes described as 'bottle green', or 'dark bottle green' and may have been the same colour as the 1945 dark green. The 3rd coach, a GSWR mail van, has been repainted into the same livery. The 1st and 6th coaches carry a lighter shade of green, with a fine eau-de-nil waist line. No snails, and no class digits on the standard class doors (still third class at the time of the photo, but shortly to become second). The 1st coach looks quite freshly repainted, and the 6th coach is almost new. They may be in the shade known as 'brilliant green'. The mid-1950s saw some experimentation with lighter green shades before what became the standard 'light green' was chosen. This period is the most challenging to research and one of the most controversial! This photo pre-dates the final iteration of the light green livery. In due course I will describe and illustrate the evolution of these different green liveries, and others, in much more detail. There are very few colour photos of CIE carriages prior to 1956. If only the photographer of the image above had some colour film... Fortunately, Ernie and the IRRS do have some nice colour images from the 1950s, and there are a few in the Colour-Rail collection as well as in various publications. I've been searching out photos which show multiple shades of green in one photo as this helps to eliminate some of the unknown variables.

Excellent. See you there. It's a long time since I even went to Westport, and I don't think I've ever been to Achill.

In this thread I will attempt to describe and illustrate the green carriage liveries applied by CIE in the 1945 to 1961 period, and which could still be seen in the mid-1960s. This will also include a brief foray into 'silver' carriage liveries which form a key part of the story too. This is a complex subject and there is inconsistency between published sources and personal recollections. It is made more difficult because colour photographs of Irish trains in the 1940s and early 1950s are scarce, and remain uncommon into the late 1950s. Additionally, early colour films had variable sensitivity to shades of green, and many slides have deteriorated over the past 75 years. So this is a bit of a minefield and I can't promise that what I put in this thread is entirely correct. But I've done my best to cross-reference between photos, contemporary written sources (e.g. IRRS Journals, Irish Railfans News), and subsequent writings on the topic. Some preserved rolling stock with original paintwork, and some of Fry's O gauge models which were made in the 1950s, also provide useful references to colour. There is also some film and video evidence although most amateur colour film of the period is rather poor quality. Before we even get to the liveries, I'd like to take an overview of the carriages in service during this period. In fact, I've analysed 1945 through to 1972, the end date being dictated by changes in the way that CIE reported their rolling stock statistics. 1972 was also the start of major changes in the fleet, with the introduction of the air-conditioned Mk2 stock and the BR heating vans, and large-scale conversion programmes of composites into bogie vans, railcars into push-pull sets etc. I have been analysing the CIE carriage registers from 1942, 1946, 1953, 1961, 1969, later stockbooks and some listings of GNR carriages too. Thanks to all who have helped in the provision of this input data. By listing each vehicle and the years it was in traffic I have produced the colourful graph below. You will note that I have split the fleet into: Coaches (passenger carrying, including dining cars etc) Vans (full brakes, travelling post offices etc) Railcars I have also split the bogie vehicles from the ~30' vehicles (mostly 6-wheelers, some 4-wheelers) Other non-passenger carrying coaching stock such as horseboxes and carriage trucks have been excluded from the analysis. Narrow gauge stock is also excluded. I have also shown the origin of the vehicles: Pre-1925 (all GSR constituents) - blue Introduced by GSR 1925-1945 - red Introduced by CIE from 1945 - green Inherited from GNR (I have counted these from 1959 onwards irrespective of build date) - brown CIE and ex-GNR Railcars are all grouped together - yellow So, what do we see here? In the late 1940s, still in the after-effects of the 'Emergency' with shortages of fuel and materials meaning a skeleton train service and no money for new rolling stock. This was pre-nationalisation CIE. There seems to have been a cull of old carriages (mostly 30') around 1949. CIE was nationalised in 1950 and more money became available, but with demands for improved efficiency. A fleet of diesel railcars was ordered and a carriage construction programme was begun. Material shortages remained a real problem, as did industrial action. New carriage construction was badly affected and proceeded slowly, and import of the new railcars was also blocked by striking workers. Things got better in 1953/4 and production rates increased. Delivery of new railcars and carriages allowed another cull of pre-1925 stock in the mid-1950s. In October 1958, the GNR was split with half of the rolling stock going to CIE (since it was late in the year I've shown this in the 1959 figures). However, the UTA was prompt in closing down most of the ex-GNR network making much of the inherited rolling stock redundant. About half the ex-GNR coaches were withdrawn in 1960. Those remaining mostly dated from the 1930s, 1940s and of course the 1950s railcars (these are plotted in the yellow railcar category). Meanwhile, CIE also pruned its network in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and this enabled most of the pre-1925 stock to be eliminated. 1961 was the last year that the green livery was applied, for the black and tan scheme was introduced in late 1961. The total number of carriages in 1961 was almost identical to the total a decade earlier. In 1951, only 12% of the fleet was built post-1925. But in 1961, 76% was post-1925 and 57% was built post-1950. So the story of the green livery includes both new-builds and repaints. During this period, there were times when the same livery was applied to both categories, and other times when new-builds had a different livery from repaints of older stock. I have identified several versions of the green livery that were applied to many carriages, but there were other variants which were short-lived, experimental, or applied locally. You will find that there's a lot more to it than just 'Dark Green' and 'Light Green'. It's a complex story and I'm afraid I can't fully explain everything. But I'll try to present a coherent story that fits with the documentary and photographic evidence that I have reviewed. This will be a slow-burning thread as I am still working through some aspects of the research. P.S. As a sense-check of my carriage analysis, I compared the annual totals I have calculated from the carriage registers against those reported in the CIE annual reports published from 1951. This isn't a perfect match and I understand some of the reasons why. I won't bore you with those details, but for the purposes of a statistical overview I'm not far off:

How about an IRM Park Royal model, redone in ‘Brilliant Green’ on sides, ends and roof? Brilliant Green colour in this post: I think the early Park Royals may have been that colour originally. Another interesting one would be to start with this railcar photo: and replace the black band around the windows with this shade of dark olive known as ‘steel furniture green’: This was the original plan for the BnT livery.

I will in due course start a new thread on the green liveries. I’ve been researching the topic for a while, and I still need to digest all the stuff I found in the archives before writing the thread. The reference to Brilliant Green is in the spring 1954 journal, and given communication and publication times it probably refers to events in late 1953. Therefore the Brilliant Green may be one of the ‘experimental’ 1953 liveries, rather than what became the standard light green around 1955. This is an agreed standard for the 1955/6 light green: I have a lot of work still to do to cross-reference the documentary sources and photos. Please bear with me!

I’m very interested in the 1950s green liveries too, but haven’t found so much useful on those in the archives. However I did find a couple of references to a livery as ‘brilliant green’ which I note is also a name used in the same old colour standards, and looks similar. This is from the Spring 1954 IRRS Journal:

Here’s the actual reference to the colours in the design consultant”s report:

Many thanks! It’s all very interesting. I’m currently trying to sort a date for my next visit to the archives. I fully understand that the place is run by volunteers with limited availability, and many thanks to them for being so accommodating. But only being open on selected Tuesday afternoons does not favour people like me who work full time and have to travel a fair distance to Dublin. 2 days leave and a lot of travelling for one afternoon in the archive, and it’s not even a day adjacent to a weekend that I could bridge to coincide with a railtour etc. Nevertheless, I’m keen and I want to find out more! I can happily work around the opening time limitations and I understand why they exist, but it limits the time I can spend there. If only I had more time I’d offer to start creating a catalogue.

I'm well aware that I still haven't progressed this project since taking all my measurements. I'll get back to it soon, I promise. Anyway, this diagram I found in the IRRS archives will definitely help: There are a lot of GSWR / GSR / CIE wagon diagrams in the archives, including many types that I had not realised had survived. Among them, there are several more detailed drawings of the earlier (1904), wider 'big boy' vans. They had an 1145 cu ft capacity and an overall width of 9'0" over body, 9'3.5" over roof. Length, height and wheelbase were the same. On my recent visit I was mostly looking for info on railcars and carriages, but stumbled across these other documents whilst searching.

I have found and photographed some previously-undiscovered wagon drawings in the IRRS archives...