Mol_PMB

When I look south over Cheshire and see steam rising, I'll know it's Rob's 3D printer trying to keep us all happy! What has he let himself in for? #PecoRob...

It feels like my E class is on the home straight (and I hope I'm not tempting fate) and as usual my brain is working more quickly than my hands, not always in a helpful way! I'm building my E as E410 on a Fenit theme, and I'm well aware that the G class also worked to Fenit - initially G601s and later G611s. So I was wondering about the options for a G class model. 30-odd years ago I scratchbuilt one in plasticard but it wasn't very satisfactory and is long gone now. I've seen references to several different G class kits, but I'd just like to tap your collective wisdom! In particular, which of the kits would be suitable for 21m gauge and might satisfy my OCD levels? The issue with 21mm gauge is that on the prototype the wheels are very closely spaced inside the frames, so that when using the correct gauge and slightly overscale width wheels, they definitely don't fit behind frames made overscale thickness. It appears that Silver Fox do a resin cast G601, which looks OK if a little basic, but with a one-piece resin chassis that looks like it isn't suitable for 21mm gauge: IR / IÉ 601 Class (G Class) 0-4-0 Deutz | Silver Fox Models Then there's the DC Kits G611, looks a bit tidier but again I'm unsure if this would be suitable for 21mm gauge? CIE/Irish Rail Class G Shunter The third option I've identified is the Worsley Works etched kit for a G611. This looks like it might be suitable for 21mm gauge though I'm not 100% sure: Irish Railways Deutz Diesel CIE Coras Iompair Eireann in 4mm Scale My gut feel is that the Worsley Works G611 is most suitable, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has built one of these to 21mm gauge. Also, are there any options for the G601 suitable for 21mm gauge? If this turns out to be too hard, I can always just build another E class! Many thanks, Mol

I'd like to try some of them, please!

Yes, to be fair, my memories of it are from the early 2000s when the Tralee train was usually a 141 with 4 Cravens and a van. There were a few occasions during the week when both the through platform roads were occupied at the time a Tralee train was due to depart, so it had to go round the outside. At least the baby GM got slightly more of a run at the hill. As StevieB notes, there would be another propelling move needed later in the journey at Killarney. Of course the Limerick Junction manoeuvres were legendary.

So, I mentioned a silver G and look what appeared! https://flic.kr/p/2qMapPe Lovely - thank you! The footplate on this appears to be silver, definitely not black.

You want a BIGGER box from Accurascale / IRM ?!? [I should add that I thoroughly approve of the big boxes as they have saved a couple of my deliveries from damage when thrown over the gate by the courier]

Ah, so the old days of some Cork-Tralee trains starting from a bay, propelling out towards Cobh and then bypassing the main station train shed via the goods line are gone now, with the development of Platform 6!

Super and inspiring photos! Interesting to see three block trains of goods vans - no opens, flats, containers, cattle etc.

Again, a bit of a marginal case, I went on an RPSI Dublin-Cork tour with Merlin which went south on Saturday and north on Sunday. I recall it was possible to book tickets for just one day and return by scheduled train, so there was an option starting in Cork. The climb out of Cork on a damp and slippery day with 7 coaches was quite spectacular: despite plenty of sand the loco barely exceeded 10mph through the tunnel in simple mode and hadn't accelerated much more by Rathpeacon. She crested the summit 12 miles later at a healthy 50mph though, and rolled down into Mallow looking more black than blue after giving the tunnel the first good clean it had had for half a century. Fun times!

You are rightly demonstrating why all these things need to be thought through at the start! Best of luck with the build, I look forward to seeing it come together.

I'm just adding all the tabs to the chassis etch artwork. There is provision for rigid chassis, 1 axle rigid and the other two compensated (with hornguides), or all 3 axles with hornguides and CSB suspension. Also 16.5mm gauge or 21mm gauge. This sheet will be 0.45mm brass rather than the 0.25mm nickel silver used for the body. To fill some gaps, a couple of bonus items for the body on here: a radiator fan and mount, and a handrail bending jig for the sizes required. Neither really necessary but why not? I have a little bit of space left over even on a small A5 sheet, no doubt I've forgotten something, but you never realise until it's too late! If I don't think of anything else by tomorrow then I will fill it with various widths of strip - you can never have too many bits of brass strip!

Many thanks, you're too kind! I decided to ask Colour-Rail for a better copy of the view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70, and they are going to scan it for me. In the process we have also identified two other nice colour views in their collection, reference numbers IR637 and FIE02925. I'm ordering good copies of those for my personal use, but for info if you put those numbers into the 'reference' search box here: https://colourrail.co.uk/nonuk You will find that IR637 is mainly a colour view of D class 1000 in original dark green, plus the cab of silver E417. Dark green loco, eau-de-nil snail and E number in one shot, for the shades of green... FIE02925 is a panoramic colour view of the goods yard at Albert Quay, with E403 shunting. The top of the footplate looks very dark, but then so does the roof! Slightly tangential: FIE04522 is E413 in black, a very nice view shunting a green carriage FIE05083 and FIE05084 are at Fenit, with a silver shunter at work, but it's G602 rather than an E.

A photo newly uploaded by Ernie has some items of pre-ISO container interest, though only in the background. This is Galway in 1967: Just to the right of the loco, a 'Lancashire Flat' on a 20' fitted flat wagon, probably 25201 series. And to the left of the loco, a couple of CIE road division's livestock swap-bodies, painted dark green. I am also exploring the potential of one of these for a CIE container. It has the advantage of no planking, and I think it won't need much surgery to fit in a corrugated open wagon. Despite being a very old model the moulding detail is quite good:

The new photo of E401 uploaded by the IRRS is interesting in showing the original paint job before it started to get dirty. We may think of silver locos as a 'dip job' - silver all over - but in fact there are quite a few details that were not silver. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54328667572 My interpretation of the photo is as follows: Red: buffer beams (not buffers) Black: buffers and housings couplings vac pipes lamp irons footstep treads handrails and grab handles bonnet door catches bonnet door stops on footplate axleboxes (not hornguides) leaf springs and upper part of hangers (not hanger brackets or auxiliary springs) rubber surround to windows An intermediate colour (may not all be the same): oil and fuel filler pipes water filler pipes drain pipe on front A major part I am not sure about from this photo is the colour of the top surface of the footplate. The front edge looks black but the angle of this view doesn't show us the top. Now, the locos may not all have been painted the same - sometimes the first loco of a class was outshopped in a special livery for photos, or the scheme was simplified as construction continued. But let's look at some other photos of relatively clean silver locos and see if we can confirm the colours. On close inspection of the other photos of clean locos, the details picked out in black usually seem to be consistent, though this is most obvious on clean locos and the contrast rapidly reduces in service. This photo of a fairly clean E412 shows the bodywork details but the axleboxes and hornguides have already become uniform dirt: https://www.transporttreasury.com/jim-flint-jim-harbart-1001-1997/hab80c1ff#hab80c1ff But after a year in service the contrast on things like the footstep treads and grab rails was much reduced - probably a combination of wear and dirt. Seen here on E410: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54323027377 Also note that the water filler pipes on E410 look to be silver, whereas on E401 and E412 they were very clearly a darker colour. The smaller drain pipe, however, looks silver on E412 but is clearly dark on E401. I get the impression that the locos were not all painted identically... Next, the top of the footplate, which is also the top of the fuel tank. A place where staff would have to walk and work, and where oil spills from the fillers and leaks from the engine compartment could spread. Would it be just smooth and painted silver? An odd choice - if it were my loco I'd make it chequerplate and black or grey. There are a few photos from higher viewpoints which show this. This photo of E409 when it was still pretty clean shows a grubby pale-coloured footplate that matches the side of the fuel tank - it's probably silver and certainly isn't black: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445965317 There's also a photo of clean E407 on its first test run reproduced in IRRS journal 14/84 Feb 1981, p173. The top of the footplate matches the side of the fuel tank and the side of the bonnet. It contrasts with the black of the lamp irons and bonnet door stops. On the other hand, this view of E414 shows a fairly uniform dark colour on the footplate - is this a combination of dirt and shadow or was it painted? The rest of the loco is fairly clean. Also, we know that the Cork crews applied some local modifications to some of their E401s, like adding cab insulation. They might have modified the livery too. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511885685/ The view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70 also appears to show a dark footplate. That's a Colour-Rail image but I can't find it on their website. Some may have been painted a darker colour., but on the other hand, the loco lurking on the right of this colour image shows nicely how the filth accumulated to hide the original colour: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255052946/ My gut feel is that it was probably silver to start with, but soon became filthy. This view of E411 by Alan Roome from 'Rails around Dublin' (Murray) p69 also shows how the filth gathered on the top surfaces: Now, for the pipes which have some an intermediate colour. I haven't found many colour photos of E401s in silver livery and even fewer where the loco is the main subject. The best one is of E402 by Neville Simms, reproduced in 'Irish Traction in Colour (Huntriss) p77: This photo has clear evidence of colour - blue - on the water filler pipes at the front. However, the other pipes are indeterminate and any trace of colour is lost in the grime. Ernie's photos of E413 in black livery (see yesterday's post) show that the water filler pipes were also painted blue in the later livery, and the oil filler pipes were green. It would be reasonable to assume that the fuel and oil filler pipes were also green when the locos were in silver livery, but soon became grimy. Another nice colour view is this IRRS one of E403, from the opposite angle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284989/ On this photo there is no sign of colour on the water and oil/fuel fillers - they look to be silver. Also note that the air receiver under the cab is silver - in the later black livery these were often yellow or orange. I think I'll walk carefully back out of this minefield...

Thanks again, IRRS Flickr! E401 absolutely fresh out of the box, we can see which bits of the running gear were silver when new: https://flic.kr/p/2qLQC63 It’s also interesting to see which bits weren’t silver on the bodywork - things like pipes, grab rails and bonnet door catches. It looks as if the top surface of the footplate may have been painted black too.

My apologies. The second post in the thread was only a week ago, I hadn't realised that the original post was so much older.

A sad lineup of Wagonmasters in May 2023, including a yellow and green one: Though a few of the species were still alive, if somewhat modified, like this one: Going back a few decades, these were much more interesting:

I took both of those photos on the same occasion, I travelled on the train with the Wagonmaster but the Ruston and the other carriage were there as well. I don't know where the coaches are now. The green and yellow locos ended up in the same scrap lines as all the brown ones.

Now that I think I've finished the bodywork, I thought I'd make a start with building the gearbox, to ensure that it is compatible with my chassis design. I've prepared all the parts ready for assembly, but will leave that until tomorrow. So thisis the sum total of where I'm up to so far:

I've no idea, but they do appear to be the model @WRENNEIRE is after, despite the curious description.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235956475742 on Buy it Now

I got the soldering iron out again this morning and added a load of smaller details, so we now have: Fuel and oil filler pipes on the footplate: Guard irons and vacuum brake pipes at each end: A quick overview at that stage: Then back to the workbench to add buffer bases and fettle to trial fit the buffers themselves: Followed by using various offcuts of wire, tube and strip to create a representation of fuel tank support brackets, fuel balance pipe and drain valves: Finally, the windscreen wipers: I feel like I'm very nearly there with the body and footplate construction. I'll put it to one side for a little bit and try to work out what I've forgotten! Some of these details can be seen on the real thing in this excellent pair of photos recently uploaded by Ernie: The next major step is to finalise the functional chassis design and then get the custom chassis etch made.

I suggest we continue this discussion on the liveries page, here: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#comment-256501 I have laid out my reasoning for why I think this may be a non-standard livery, based on the study of hundreds of A class photos when compiling my livery matrix. Note that the photo date is March 1966. The loco could be green, but if so it would have been painted that colour after June 1962. I agree that the bubbles are grey; they are a mixture of the first batch (with wheel handbrake) and the second batch (with Morton lever handbrake). Orange bubbles would first appear the following year.

The IRRS have recently uploaded another image of A28 in this period, which can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54327467196/ There's some brief discussion here but I thought I'd bring it back onto the liveries page which is a more appropriate place https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17976-making-an-‘e’-–-the-maybach-diesel-model-assembly-thread/page/3/#findComment-256487 Now, A28 kept its silver livery later than many. Here is a photo in silver in 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255321124/ Note that there is a 30t brake van visible on the left. These were first introduced in 1960, and the van is quite weathered already, so I think 1961 is a plausible date for the above image. But A28 kept its silver longer than that. Here is a photo of A28 in silver, dated 3 June 1962, in the NLI O'Dea archive: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306035 So, what livery is A28 shown in? Green has been suggested. It seems unlikely that A28 would have been repainted in green in 1962 or later, but if it was it would surely have been light green? The 'mystery' livery images above all look very dark. Maybe different film sensitivities, but the 3 photos are all by different photographers in different conditions. We would also expect a green A class to have numbers on the middle of the sides, with a snail above on a separate metal plate. Even if the loco has covered itself in oil, the snail is usually visible as it was proud of the sides. Green is possible but it would be an unusual variant and a very late application of it, about a year after black and tan was first applied to an A class. The black and tan scheme was first applied to A6 in September 1961. Most A class repainted in 1962/63 got the black and deep tan livery, without roundel, no numbers on the sides. A28 in the 'mystery' photos isn't black and tan. In 1963/64, four of them received black without roundel, and large numbers on the middle of the sides. This livery had white 'eyebrows' on the front of the cab which are not visible on either end of A28 in the 'mystery' photos. A28 could be carrying an experimental version of the black livery without 'eyebrows'? From 1964/5, the standard black livery was introduced, large numbers on the ends, roundel in the middle of the sides, small number near both ends of the loco low down on the sides. This livery had white 'eyebrows' on the front of the cab. It was applied to A28 by the late 1960s, but it's not what we see in the 'mystery' photos as there are no eyebrows or roundel. We know that at times of traction and rolling stock shortage, Inchicore sometimes outshopped locos and carriages with incomplete paintwork - for example some E421s are recorded as entering traffic in 1962/63 in brown chromate primer/undercoat. This could be a plausible option? This is the basis of me considering this livery to be non-standard. If someone can produce a colour photo of A28 in the mid-1960s then perhaps we can settle the matter!

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here! https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!