Mayner

CIE used to use a rectangular board with the speed limit in black at the commencement, with an arrow below the speed limit for a diverging route at junctions, this arrangement seems to have dated back to the 1950s. The main thing to remember is that speed through junctions is largely controlled by signalling, unless a junction is designed for high speed running a train taking the diverging route at junction is running under restricted (yellow) signal aspects, and is prepared to stop at the next signal as until it clears the junction.

Impressive looking model. Its strange how odd proportions the 800s were compared with locos from the same era http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ggauge/tower/g1tl/scot/index.htm and GNR VS http://www.flickr.com/photos/75395133@N00/4597796405/ Any chance of a Vs Des?

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Frank Looking good you are a fast worker, that CIE District Manager must have had connections in high places saving the line and managing to hideThe a Woolwich Mogul. The closure of the Boat Train Route was a pretty close run thing at one time there were plans to mine Dolomite at Lombardstown on the Kerry Road in addition to the Bennetts Bridge deposit and rail it to Ballinacourty. Without stretching things too far you could run a couple of daily Lombardstown-Ballinacourty Dolomite trains 20t hoppers and pairs of 141s and a Ballinacourty-Cork Tivilo Oil & Magnesite Train 001 with tank wagons and covered hoppers, plus a daily Cork Nort Esk-Waterford Bell Liner.

Alan The GSWR built large 4-4-0s the 321 later D2 Class in the early 1900s but had to use very light framing and tapered boilers to keep the axle load down to 16 3/4tons, these engines were later re-built with heavier framing in later GSWR/GSR days and eventually all received large parrallel boilers. The problem was more acute with goods locos the 355 Class 0-6-0s of 1903 were quickly converted into 2-6-0s and the GSWR introduced its first 4-6-0 in 1905 in an attempt to produce a more powerfull locomotive within the 16 ton limit. The problem seems to have been resolved by the time Mansell introduced 341 Sir Basil Goulding in 1913 arguably the best Southern 4-4-0 with an axle load of over 19 tons. The GSWR locos of the early 1900s had a very distinctive modern but elegant styling, distinctive from the archaic styling of the earlier McDonald/Aspinal/Ivatt era and the later re-builds with large parrallel boilers and more modern cabs which largely spoiled their appearance. By contrast by 1903 the MGWR had strengthened the Shannon Bidge at Athlone and upgraded the Dublin-Galway main line to accept an 18 ton axle loading. The time the A "Celtic" Class 4-4-0s & B Class 0-6-0s were the heaviest and most powerfull locos in Ireland. After 1900 the MGWR basically adapated a large engine policy and introduced mixed traffic 4-4-0 & 0-6-0 Classes which could basically go anywhere except the lighter branches and light railway sections. Going back to track although I have a stock of ply sleepers and rivets, I have used PCB for flatbottom and C&L plastic chairs with plastic or ply sleepers for trackk construction. Some local users use a 1:5 ratio of PCB to ply sleepers or varients of the American spiked construction. I do not have a sleeper punch but my local track supplier who models the Lynton & Barnstaple in 7mm has suggetted using the Micromark or NSWL Sensipress. He has also suggested using exhausted ink-jet catridges as a source of sleeper stain using Isopropyl Alchol to extract the remaining ink from the catridge. Pen-Y-Mount Junction July 2002 Work in progress photo of building a turnout in situ to form the crossover between the existing WHHR and the future Welsh Highland Railway main line. The turnout in the distance was supplied assembled in 50lb/Y material the WHHR turnout is in 75lb/Y material once commonly used in British Military sites and Industrial railways. 1. Put kettle & frying pan on gas rings. 2. Position the sleepers using a long tape. 3. Position and then screw down the right hand stock, diverging switch and check rails. 4. Cook Fies up large quantity of eggs, bacon, blackpudding, sausages and fried bread 6. Adjust as necessary using crow bars. 7. Position, gauge and temporary screw down diverging stock rail and straight switch assembly. 8. Breckfast/lunch break 9. Measure up, cut, drill, position, gauge and screw down straight closure rail. 10. Check alignment, adjust, pack with ballast and test with loco. 11. Position, gauge and temporary screw down diverging check rail. 12. Measure up, cut, drill, position, curve, and screw down curved closure rail. 13. The interesting bit curve diverging stock and check rails using Jim Crow until the desired radius is achieved. 14. Gauge and screw down diverging stock and check rails. 15. Rough pack crossing timbers. 16. Test with suitable loco or piece of rolling stock. 17. Tea Break and muffins. (If successful otherwise its going to be a very long day/evening/night) 18. Line and lift with rail jacks. 19. Ballast and pack with kango hammers or point and crossing tamper. 20. Clamp and lock switches. 21. Inform Traffic Department work complete and lift posession. 22. Off to Pub .

Stephen. Judging by the look of that loco you will need some serious ventilation in the attic The smoke was from a clapped out 141 climbing to Cabra not 230.

Great looking point I am thinking of having a go at ply & rivet construction at some stage. I have worked on full size narrow gauge track & we basically follow much the same sequence of assembly working from one side to the other gauging the opposite check rail off the crossing, finally fitting in the gut or closure rails in the gap between the switches and crossing assembly. We even use similar gauges, there is a great sence of releif and achievement when the first loco safely crosses through the turnout. If you are trying to achieve such a high level of accuracy have a look at http://archive.org/stream/railwayconstruc01millgoog#page/n339/mode/2up William Mills the GNR(I) Engineers 1898 text book on Railway Construction. Mills was lucky to have started with a clean slate with the formation of the GNR in the 1870s was able to develop his own standards rather than the GSWR where the Engineers were dealing with an engineering legacy dating from the 1840s. While both the GNR & GSWR used BH on the main lines in tthe early 1900 they were very different the GNR used inside chaired rail like the English Midland, the GSWR seems to have gone straight to outside chaired rail, but while the GNR & Midland introduced large 4-4-0 & 0-6-0 locomotives in the early 1900s without too much drama, the GSWR operating department had to jump through all sorts of hoops to keep it heavy passenger and freight locomotives within acceptable weight limits, including tapered boilers and additional carrying wheels. The GSR spent a lot of time and money in the 1920s rebuilding relatively modern GSWR 4-4-0s with heavier frames and large parrallel boilers. I think the main thing that should not be forgotten is that PW practice does not exist in a vacuum, in the early 1900s the GSWR would still have the odd section of 1840s Bridge Rail in the odd siding or yard, by the 1950s the GNR had largely eliminated inside chaired bullhead from its main lines, though it was still used in stations and on secondary lines, 95lb jointed flatbottom with elastic spike fixings was going in on main lines and 85-90lb flatbottom similar to that used by CIE was going in on secondary lines. Its really worth while seeking out historic photographs, up to the introduction of mechanised track maintenance centre cess drainage was often used in cuttings and away from main lines the sleeper ends were not always "boxed in" with ballat. I recently found a photo of Shankill Station in DWWR days the up road from Bray laid in outside chaired BH, the down road in FB both with centre cess drainage. The main advanatge of the Pandrol Clip and Elastic Spike over traditional spiked or bolted fixings is that it allows the rail to flex under load with less maintenance hammering back loosened spikes and tightening fixings. CIE originally cast concrete sleepers with a wooden insert to accept an elastic spike. Maany of thee leeper ended up in the outh Eatern Coatal defence between Kilcoole and Newcatle I am not sure about Ireland but in the UK GWR chairs with cast in through-bolts were used with Domac sleepered track, which is very popular with preservationists.

I tried to bore everyone to death on the old Newsgroup with a series of threads about a small Narrow Gauge layout I started eight years ago as "quicky" project to maintain interest when we first moved to New Zealand. I have been working on the current phase for two years and last night I finally got something moving my little Bemo Tractor http://www.bemo-modellbahn.de/produkte/schweizer-bahnen-h0m.html?tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bitem%5D=182&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Baction%5D=show&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bcontroller%5D=Item&cHash=d92143e96b8cec56fbf9375ebd7b014c [attachment=:name] The basic idea is to model a fictional extenssion of the Cavan & Leitrim in its final years complete with decrepit locos and stock. The mainstay of the loco fleet are a pair of Dingle 2-6-0T and a pair of C&L 4-4-0T backed up by a pair of Donegal railcars and said Bemo Tractor. Before leaving Ireland I had fitted the two Dingle engines with DCC Decoders which seemed to work fine, but prooved too unreliable so back to DC control on this one. I finally finished the wiring on the two station sections plugged in the controller and action, the Dingle engines made it from one end of the line to another but for some reason would only push not pull a train. Time to have a serious look at the pick ups. The railcars faired even worse, one an Anbrinco whitemetal model of the final Donegal caars 19 &20 with a butchered Fleischmann drive refused to run at all, so I have placed an order for a new Bull-Ant drive from Australia. The motor of the other car a Backwoods Miniatures model of the earlier No14 literally went up in puff of smoke, which did not appear to bad after nearly 20 years, but the replacement motor was nearly 1/3 the cost of a Bull-Ant. All appeared well when I fitted and tested the replacement motor, but later noticed the drive would sometimes jam. The Backwoods chassis is similar in principal to the Bull-Ant and old Minitrains OO9 drive a near bullet proof system, where with spur reduction gearing between the motor and a layshaft that transmits the final drive to the wheels. On closer inspection the lay shaft was flapping around between the frames, one of the bearings that supports the shaft had come loose and wore an oval slot in the ssupporting frame spacer, maybe I wouldd have been better to order another Bull-Ant or take up stamp collecting. At thiss stage the tractor is the only thing that runss reliably I am not sure to dresss it up as one of the GSR Drewry Railcars http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_NG_Irish_WCR.htm or possibly something like Phoenix http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/Road/atkinsonsteam.html

Shinkensen Nice model, realistic weathering, love the old ferry, how did you do the water? Very special place I used to travel down on weekends in the early 2000s to chase the beet trains, one day I arrived just after they had finished unloding the last timber train. Originally the main line ran through the area where the Auto-ballasters & MK3s are parked with extensive siding on both side of the main running lines. The present laayout dates from when the yrd was re-modelled in the 1970s John

I dont know if there is a rtr model but one of these would be a bit different http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10153.htm a rake of these wagons formed the Inchacore Oil Train in the late 70s-80s. The wagons were originally used by Caltex with a silver barrel with large black lettering and a horizontal red band along the centre of the barrel similar to the Ammonia tank wagons these were later re-branded for Texaco with similar style of lettering and the red banding moved to the solebars. These would be a challenge to paint and letter as years Caltex lettering and band down the centre of the barrel was clearly visiblewhile in fuel train use beneath the Texaco branding. There may be some photos of these wagons around as many of thee older tank wagons were stored of the Dardanell Sidings until East Wall yard was re-modelled in the early 2000s. John

Some curveball questions Alan

Despite being a Dub, I have been there a number of times myself moved to the UK in the 1980s when there was no work to be had in Dublin, returned 10 years later when there was no work in the UK, moved continents 10 years later this time when I simply wanted a change and did not want to get caught out in the next recession. The first move was fine a new adventure, the move back to Ireland was more difficult as you simply cannot pick up where you had left offbesides each time there are a lot more models to move. Much the same with lack of space exen when I got my own place, probably the best approach is to join a club get inolved in working on a layout and meet people for whom wierd is normal. John

Parkside Dundas http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_BRITISH_RAILWAYS.html do both the Palvan and BR Ply sided vans. The kits were originally were fairly basic and inexpensive, the Palvan is one of the more recent kits more detailed and expensive. While its fairly straightforward to convert a kit to 21mm by moving out the solebars, modifying a rtr model either involvesrhaving to totally replace or slice the chassis or bogies down the middle like the Dapol tank wagon

Modified RTR Dapol/Mainline Tank Wagon Probably the crudest conversion I wanted a couple of traditional Private Owner tank wagons the only problem was the need to cut the chassis in two! Crude as ! runs fine not sure what i will do with this one. Parkside wagon Conversions SSM & the S4 Society introduced W irron assemblies suitable for 21mm gauge in the mid 1990s together with frets for the traditional Irish single shoe wagon brake. Cattle wagon chassiss with SSM W Irons & MJT axleboxes and springs. These wagons are permanently coupled in pairs with automatic couplers at the ends, due to their short length these wagons have a tendency to accidentally uncouple when propelled over an uncoupling magnet, coupling these wagons together in pair with 3 link couplers basically eliminates the problem. Ian Suter MGWR Open Ex GNR Bagged Cement Wagon all went to CIE the main difference between the British and irish vans was the absence of end ventilators on the Irish wagons and different brake gear, the Irish wagons were unfitted with independent either side brakes. The Pallet Wagon CIE last new traditional wagon design used for sundries traffic, a lot of detail difference between batches in door and end design GSR/CIE 10T Open Scratchbuilt in plasticard with etched brass and whitemetal strappings and angle iron details. Built around 93-4 the body is basically an open topped plasticard box, with the planking scribed using an Offra cutter, after nearly 20 years there is no sign of the plasticard warping or twisting, but the superglue bond between the brass and plasticard parts are breaking down. Hornby bogie with plasticard bolster Probably the simplest and most effective flexible bogie. The bogie performs in a similar manner to the BR Loadmaster and American 3 Piece bogie in that the bolster takes up the movement between the side frames. The plasticard bolster has stood up to about 15 years use, I have also converted Lima MK3s to 21mm using KS Metal brass strip as a bolster.

I have never attempted a blog before, GSWR101s thread seems to have stirred up considerable interest in the practical side of 21mm gauge modelling so I though I would write up my experience with rolling stock conversions and leave the locos to a later date. I first tried my hand in 21mm in the early 1980s but it took about 10 years to develop the necessary experience to achieve half decent results. I was an MRSI member, some of the more influential members were starting to modify or scratchbuild Irish locos and stock but most of the more senior modellers were interested in the Big Four, American or Continental railway. At the time the standard of British rtr just did not compare in detail or running quality with Fleischmann, Trix, Liliput, Marklin or even Athearn. Having a contrary nature scratchbuilding and doing your own thing appealed more than following the crowd and my pocket did not stretch beyond buying plaasticard and the odd Lima Loco. There was very little information or models available at the time Tim Cramer published a series of articles and drawings in Model Railways, the occasional drawing and article appeared in the Modeller and Constructor. Around this time articles on Richard Chowns O Scale WLWR layout, Iain Rice's series on Tregarrick and the original Advaoyle prompted me to have a go in 21mm. Little or no information was available on wheel or track standards at the time Tim Cramer quoted a 19.5 wheel B-B dimension in an article in the moddeller in the 1970s, David Malone produced a detailed how to article on modelling to S4 Standards in Practical Model Railways. I work to use a set of TMD 21mm gauges with a B-B of 19.5 with EM profile wheel sets although 19.3 is recommended to deal with Romford/Jackson and other coarser wheel profiles allowable in EM. There were few suitable kits and no rtr models available, Terry McDermott introduced a MGWR tank loco kit and the Model Wagon Company Ardrossan a GNR(I) cattle wagon. Des McNally started to introduce the range of MIR whitemetal kits of then contemporary wagons a bit modern for the late 1950-60s period. My first train was made up of an ex MGWR Achill Bogie with a Lima 4F tender drive, & a pair of ex MGWR coaches all in plastciard very pretty but it did not run very well or even stay on the track. Suitable axles and suspension units were not available at the time, wheel sets ran in home made inside bearings, wheels were simply pushed out on their axles to the correct Back to Back. Most of my locos and stock are fitted with EM or NMRA RP 25 profile wheelsets, however, I have a few vehicles with the very good solid brass Jackson wheels supplied with Parkside kits, Bachmann and an odd profile brass wheel supplied with PC Coach Kits, thanks to John Rednup I cleared out Puffer's stock of these wheels at a substantial discount in 1988. For me the big break through was Mike Sharmans huge range of loco, bogie and tender wheels all supplied with extended axles which the user cut to length. I could at least build 21mm locos that could run even if they looked pretty bad Suitable coach and wagon wheels were still a major problem although Alan Gibson advertised 21mm wheel sets with 28mm axles, he does not appear to have been prepared to supply, however Ultrascale supply their excellent wheels in 21mm to S4 or EM tyre profile. Another way around the problem is to cut and sleeve a standard 26mm axle with 2mm ID brass tube from Eilleen's Emphorium. Hornby Stanier bogie with .060" bolster, PC wheelsets axles sleeved with 2mm brass tubing The nasty bit Dapol solebars packed out with 1mm plasticard The break through in 21mm modelling came with the introduction of by the S4 Society and Studio Scale Models or suitable W Iron assemblies. MJT produce a very usefull inside bearing unit originally designed for fitting compensation to RTR Models http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2291.php Ratio LNWR open converted to 21mm with MJT inside bearing units I think the wheelss are Gibson or Magib OO or EM wheelsets pushed out to a 19.5 Back to Back MJT also produce a coach compensation unit that can be adjusted out to 21mm gauge. http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2224.php MJT CCU packed out to 21mm

For those that consider railcars too exciting there is always the BRUT station trolley SIG in the UK http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/11-truck.htm I think the whole attitude to model railways and modelling has improved since I was growing up at a time railways were considered to be finished and there was something distinctly odd about teenagers let alone grown men playing with train sets. These days I find work colleagues a lot more open about their hobbies these days its not considered odd for someone to support the All-Blacks, The Warriors and be involved in some or several forms of modelling or collecting. Mind you each society has its own hang ups despite the relative success of the All Whites soccer players are considered a bit odd. Going on to the Alpha generation our two and half year old daughter has mastered the remote control for her own battery powered model train and there is hell to play if she does not get to send off the 17:30 when I get home from work in the evening. John

There was a piece on the whole fiasco in a paper by Dan Renihan in one of the IRRS Journals during the late 70 early 80s. Basically the Government forced CIE to cancel the order when the company was nationalised, but accepted the engines and possibly electrical equipment and stored them to avoid financial penalties. The B101s were probably a superior locomotive in terms of engine, electrical system, braking and running gear compared to the Yanks and Bo Bos, their low power to weight ratio compared with the GM locos was probably an advantage in working heavy freight and passenger trains in poor rail conditions. CIE seem to have got it right in combining the excellent Swiss Sulzer engine and Metrovick electrical system in both its original Inchacore built and the Birmingham Sulzers. Most of the problems with the BR Sulzer Type 2s were down to problems with the Brush & GEC traction motors which were not really suitable for freight locomotives. The Metrovick electrical system was considered very good the 001 had no problems in hauling heavy freights up the gullet from Islandbridge Junction or out of Cork, while the 121,141 & 071 classes are considered slippy, the less said about the suitability of the GM bogie for passenger work the better They originally seem to have been worked hard on Top Link Passenger duties on the Cork Line and Rosslare-Cork Boat trains, then concentrated around Waterford and Limerick on freight duties as the B141s took over main line passenger links. I vaguely remember seeing Black B101s in the early 70s on Heuston-North Wall transfer freights and on parcel trains at Dunlaoire.

I think there is a more positive attitude to the hobby and modelling these days, its more acceptable for teenagers and grow men to be playing with model cars, trains and planes than when I was growing up Our two and a half year old daughter operates the remote control for her our own battery powered train and sends of the 17:30 departure most eveningings otherwise there is hell to pay John

Flatbottom rail was/is more or less the standard throughout the World with the exception of the UK where Bullhead was the standard from the mid 1800s up to the 1960s. In the early days there was a lot of experimentation with rail profiles until most railways settled on Vignoles or Flatbottom and Bullhead rail in cast iron chairs on cross sleepers. The original idea behind bullhead was a double headed rail that could be turned over and re-used when the running surface became worn, two years ago I was amazed to find a siding laid with such rail still in use in South island. Typical Bullhead track before extension of DART to Greystones. Traditional Irish FB track with the rail supported on cast iron baseplates with Fangbolt fixing through sleepers. The slide chairs support the moving part of the point blades. This system was used on most main and secondary lines, on some branchs and secondary lines like the SLNCR the rails were spiked directly to the sleepers with baseplates and fang bolts sometimes used at the joints and every 4- 5th sleeper. Modern FB wooden sleepers with pandrol fixings Crew Curve Shrewsbury. None of the British track systems quite capture the look of Irish flatbottom track traditional or modern. I use soldered construction with pcb sleepers. I never had much success with solder paint so I apply paste or liquid flux to the joint between rail & sleeper with a small brush then introduce a tiny bead of solder which flows into the joint by capillary action. It takes a bit of practice but becomes surprisingly fast. John

and your talking of letting them loose with soldering irons & lectricity:rolleyes:

At the time most British and American Export locos would probably have been too heavy for CIEs needs, thoe light weight GMs did not arrive until the early 1960s. The A Class was basically a very good loco with a crappy engine equally capable of fast passenger work and low speed lugging on heavy freight work. The most interesting thing about the B101 Class is that BRCW used the engines and possibly electrical system from a cancelled 1948 order for 6 twin engined diesels for the Cork Line. Goodness knows what these would have looked like but the idea was pretty much in line with contemporary GM E Units, at the time someone in CIE was heavily influenced by the states and there were plans for a single ended A Unit and a luxury train presumably a streamliner for the tourists, quite a contrast to ancient looking GSWR stock in the train at the adjoining platform The order seems to have been cancelled as a result of political pressure and the engines stored for several years before being used in the B Class. John

Interesting place Clara once an industrial town a junction for two branch lines with two stations and private sidings to Goodbody's Jute Mill and Ranks Grain & Flour Mills. There are some interesting photos of Clara with a newly introduced G Class making up the Banagher Goods in the O'Dea Collection at the National Library The Banagher Branch left the main line at Clara and Banagher Junction about a mile West of the station, Goodbodies siding trailed into the main line in the background behind the IWT Liner, the sidings were still there into the 1970s, the chimney in the background may be part of the old mill. The goods yard was in the area between the station building and the trees in the distance, with the goods shed in the middle distance behind the DFDS Liner. A siding ran out of this yard to serve Ranks Grain elevators, Ranks had some very neat bulk grain wagons lettered Ranks Ireland Limerick and Clara. The Midland branch from Streamstown made a facing connection towards Tullamore just beyond the end of the train in the far distance, there was a signal cabin and exchange platform at the junction together with the Midland Goods and Loco shed, Midland branch followed the tree line in the far distance. Clara always had a single passenger platform there was once a second goods loop off the down loop allowing shunting to take place a a loco to run round a train without blocking the main running line. John

Peter Johnsons original Canada Road inspired me to have a go at an urban Irish layout, you can squeeze a lot more in if you dont have to make room for a passenger station. I was a fan of Eastwell the East Midlands Ironstone layout and my first successful use of handlaid points and track was on an 8'x1'6" self contained EM Gauge mineral line based on Iain Rices Bankfoot design capable of keeping an operator busy for hours positioning wagons for loading and making up trains. The 21mm layout is in stasis at the moment I dropped a real clanger in allowing the minimum 6' clearance between running lines on the dock layout with coaches side swiping on curves, I need to do a re-design open up clearance between running lines on curves and between the running lines and yard. The copper clad track is fine for flatbottom, though I will probably use a mixture of chaired bullhead and flatbottom on ply sleepers when ever I geet round to building a larger layout. Unless you want a double track tail chaser or model the present day scene the short trains and infrequent services on many lines should not be too much of an issue. I started out with plans for Kilmessan Junction on the Meath Road, made a start on Ballymoe on the Mayo Line and have long term plans build a Burma Road model based on Kiltamagh one of the more compact stations. Passenger trains often conveyed vans and non-passenger stock that was attached and de-tached at wayside stations, and overload goods operated where the regular goods exceeded the loading for the allocated locomotive. On the GNR most trains on the Irish North seeem to have more vans than coaches, while CIE was quite happy to attach vans cattle trucks and container wagons to passenger trains on many routes. There is a nice photo of a B121 passeneger train entering Ennis in the early 1960s in Rails in the West made up of 2 coachees 2 luggage vans and 2 cattle wagons

Good to see another modeller having a go and pre-amalgamation too, Paul Greene the former owner of SSM models the GSWR in S Scale and has built a model based on Killorglin complete with green J15. It might be worth while building a small layout or test track to get something running and act as a primer while planning the grand project, I started work on a small urban shunting layout based on the Liffey Branch to get something running while I eventually sort out space for a larger layout, however I need to carry out some major adjustments to the trackwork as I left clearances too tight with carriages side swiping on curves. Iain Rice had good ideas about modelling bits of stations, loco depots or goods yards rather than a spralling country station, there are even a few plans which morphed out of Westport Quay . John

Dont be leaving out the Travellers and the buiders what about a Hiace? Boss