jhb171achill

Were they the same wagons that carried the “back-to-backs”?

Very probably - I know for a fact that this was EXACTLY what was behind the NIR genny van coach with its NIR logo well into “Translink” days - plus, of course, the better-known last loco turned out in full GNR blue livery in Dundalk, just after CIE took it over.... Sadly - yes, exactly!

There's a very strange one livery-wise. The "NIR" logo was officially discontinued when the oval "crooked grape" Translink device came into being - as long ago as 1996! Yet, it is still applied to the trio of NIR "111s". Is there a reason? I know NIR is technically still a separate company and "Translink" is effectively just a trading name, but it's applied to ALL trains and buses and related signage and publicity......

The norm was facing points to a junction both here and Britain. Naturally there were exceptions, but usually for a practical reason. Ballybrophy was exceptional as it faced Cork rather than Dublin. Take Mallow as a better example. You could come up from Cork and go direct onto the Waterford line. That was the norm. An example like the plan above gives more shunting possibilities on a small layout, of course!

There’s another forum on which one of our regulars is Natalie Gardner, who will be known to many of us; the slightest mention of a “G” class, which our Nat has very considerable experience with in 12ins = 1ft scale, will always elicit this as an answer: ”” !

Yes, but if a train is coming from the right, and going up the branch, he needs to be able to get across without reversing.......

In operation, a crossover is more likely the other way round and to the right of the junction points, thus enabling a train from the right to go directly onto the branch....

Nobody seems to have noticed much that 2020 is the 75th year since CIE was formed......might it be too late to think of an ICR set in fully lined, snail-adorned, dark green with light green lining? ttc - have a word!

Ah, us oul wans are working on you, Noel. Soon, it’ll be an 00 Works J15 with forty of Leslie’s cattle trucks and a van going through en route from Ballyculchie Fair to Cabra!

I travelled to Lakeview and Tara Junction in 1966, and there were black "A"s (and still one green one), with a grey 121, two green "C"s, a black "E", a black'n'tan "G", and six new 141s....... Lakeview was full of grey 30 ton vans and an old GSR one too................ ....and me oul fella had a pic of an ex-GNR "UG" there, beside a "Woolwich" and three "J15s", a "J18" and a 400 class in 1959....... (And then I woke up!) (Can we tempt you, Noel?)

Very much so!

Best I could find - certainly none are great photos, but it gives an idea. I have ciné of them departing Heuston which shows the brownish shade up WAY more starkly. Some models seem to have the orange / tan / golden brown* going part way down on the central driver's steps. This is wrong - they were black to the top. (* ...or whatever ye're havin' yerself.....)

Interesting - that might solve a mystery, which I will put out here. People bored by livery discussions, please change channel now! All photos I have seen, plus what's planned, I believe, for the model, appears to indicate a very fine black line around the numbers on the ends and sides, and the "flying snail" on the ends. However, I am almost certain that somewhere, some time, I either saw a real one or a good quality picture, which shows this lining as white, contrasting well against the grey and yellow. Now I know that this livery was used on tour buses, and maybe it was on those.... evidence eludes me, however. Maybe I was on the Kool-Aid that day. The other mystery, of course, is why repaint even one in grey at all, given its poor wearing quality, it's non-standard nature, and the fact that by as early as 1964 they had started painting them black'n'tan, and given that they were delivered in grey and yellow, these colours would not routinely have been stocked by CIE!

Correct. Senior mentioned seeing one passing along the Royal Canal with an up Sligo nose first at one stage - one wonders why it hadn't been turned in Sligo..... Some years ago, when I was on Downpatrick's management committee, and discussion over whether or not to ask IE for a 121, 141, or anything at all, was on the table. There was a slight majority in favour of asking for 124 or 134 (both of which were in traffic), but the loco dept. made that very point - that two of a crew were needed. On grounds of practicality, they were of course right. A 121 at Downpatrick could turn at the triangle, but in actual traffic, could run only in one direction - nose first out, and cab first return. As a result, 146 was acquired instead, and it's going strong! Yes, very much so. Again, for our younger readers, ALL goods trains had to have a van at the end, no matter what wagons they were made up of.

Perfect - you can see the non-standard CIE logo well in that. Also, the brake wheel was black as the Murphy model replicates. I can't recall exactly when these started being red, but I guess late 1980s - someone else might be able to confirm this? The photo actually makes the orange look more "normal" in that; in reality it was more brownish than the pic implies, and really showed up very starkly against a clean set of Mk 2s! I'll try to dig out a photo.

Yes. It will come as a relief for our younger readers to know that while latterly these locos almost inevitably ran in pairs, either with other 121s, or with 141s or 181s, initially they didn't, and I am personally unaware of ANY instance of a pair in grey, or even a grey one paired with anything else. It was really only in the early 70s that pairing became regular. In initial times, i.e. when they were grey, a certain amount of nose-first running happened, but with turntables still a-plenty, they were able to turn them for return journeys almost anywhere. As mentioned above, when introduced most passenger stock was still green, and you'll see pics of many a grey one with only green or (VERY dirty) silver vehicles behind them. Silver TPOs and "tin vans" of both heating and luggage variety did not all get the green livery - some did, some didn't; so both are appropriate to the 121-grey period. Naturally, these started being repainted black'n'tan soon after. As mentioned above, a couple of grey 121s got red buffer beams, but I am not entirely sure that they were repainted grey too - I suspect that the red was just added. In terms of WHEN repaints into black'n'tan took place, by 1964 some are in this livery - that's a very short time in traffic for the initial paint scheme. On the other hand, at least one was still grey in 1967. For modellers of the period when the 121s were delivered, there are a lot of livery variations, and it's possible to stock a layout for that period prototypically with items of which hardly two are the same colour scheme. 121s - grey, with or without red buffer beams. Let's say we're doing 1961-65; black'n'tan too. 141s - black'n'tan, with no CIE "roundels" until late 60s. 181s - black'n'tan with roundels from new "E" class - some black with white flash, some black'n'tan "G601" - green or black with white flash "G611" - never green (despite preservation and some models!), but either black with white, or black'n'tan "B113" - green, then black'n'full tan, then black with yellow end panels. "B101" - None still silver, but either green, black with white flashes, or a unique livery which had full tan sides, but white line at the top on ENDS only. I'm pretty sure none got the yellow panel. "C" - one or two still quite exceptionally filthy former silver. Most green, and all being gradually being repainted either black'n'tan (not many), black with white end flash, or same with yellow panel. "A" - as per the "C"s above, but with several variations of side markings: some black ones had a large number on the side, as the ITG's A38 had in its last livery; or a CIE logo there, but with smaller loco numbers under the cab at each end. Carriages - a handful still dirty silver, the majority green, but black'n'tan probably overtaking them numerically by 1965/6. One or two ex-GN types still were knocking about in either GNR brown or GNR dark blue and cream; one brown one did a stint in West Cork just before that system closed! Wagons - everything grey. The brown livery was almost a decade away. Technically, the corrugated opens were the same "silver", but with grey-painted frames; they would never (in single-deck version) have painted bodies at all until they were doubled for beet 25 years later. Goods brake vans are just beginning to get the yellow and black "zebra stripes" on their duckets. Older wooden wagons and vans at this stage are becoming very weathered. If modelling Northern Ireland, under the UTA they were so worn that proper identification of any actual "livery" was often all but impossible; just cover with weathering! Cement bubbles were without exception grey when introduced, although the last ones built about 1969/70 or so entered traffic in orange, with grey chassis; peculiarly, the initial grey ones, unusually for ANY goods stock in Ireland, had a black chassis, as seen on the IRM model. Cravens were black'n'tan from new, and retained the same livery into the early 1990s. Thus, historically, the single-white-line Cravens are the only show in town for anything in the CIE era (up to 1987), and for a short time afterwards. Thus, no grey, green, silver black'n'tan loco ever ran with Cravens with the two white lines. (The first Craven I ever saw with the orange line above, and two white lines, was in May 1989, and it looked very newly painted). Phew! Hope that helps.

Technically, the top one (088) is incorrect in details. First, as on the "heritage" 071 at the moment, the CIE roundel, while all-white, wasn't the standard CIE transfer on the factory-delivered 071s. When delivered, the all-white CIE logo was not the correct design, with a larger diameter perimeter and non-standard lettering. The design of the logo on the model of 088, and the "heritage" (I nearly said "preserved"!) 071 is the standard one, though they've got the non-standard "all-white" bit correct. Secondly, I am not sure if the running plate was orange - I stand to be corrected on this, but I think it was black. As implied above, the red brake handle came later. The BIG thing, though, was the colour. General Motors appear to have simply got this wrong, and by some margin. The orange on the model is right for what OTHER locos (and carriages) had at the time. The slightly brighter shade would appear during the 1980s. On first repaint, all 071s got the then-standard orange as above, along with CIE badges of the standard style, and with orange "broken wheels". Hope this helps! As far as I recall, I have yet to see in model form the "correct, "incorrect" shade" that they were delivered in. It was distinctly brownish, and much more worthy of the description of "golden brown" than the original shade was in 1962.

Mostly open wagons of coal from the quayside - ideal for a shunting-type layout. Also goods vans of ex-NCC and GNR origin, and of course one or two NCC “brown vans”. All loose-coupled, so a goods brake van obligatory.

Strangely, the border was an advantage, as most of the funding was coming from the cross-border “peace” funding from IFI & ERDF. Had it not been cross-border, it wouldn’t have qualified. Brexit could, of course, have presented problems had it come to be, and a “hard border” would probably kill it. Regarding Suir Valley type schemes, in a country with a market the size of ours, this would sadly be more sustainable financially.

The principal enthusiast end of it was coming from the Enniskillen end at that time! It was deliberately designed to be operable with the smallest possible number of people. It would be branded as a vintage diesel line, in keeping with the fact that almost all passenger services from the 1940s were peculiar, pioneering, and / or unique railcars. The line proceeded across the river and agreement had been obtained from the British Army (who had blown the bridge up) to rebuild it. The lakeside terminus was a simple platform with a lock-up ticket hut; to prevent vandalism, a waiting room would be provided on operating days by a six-wheeled coach parked there (an idea later adopted by the DCDR at Inch Abbey). In Belcoo, agreement had been reached with the owners of the restored station and signal cabin, but as an initial stage the railcar would stop just short of the station to avoid reinstating the level crossing. A one-railcar-length platform was to be provided there, with the adjacent community centre selling tickets and providing car parking and toilets. One landowner objected; the middle one out of five. Once he had been visited and talked round, one at the Belcoo end, on whose land a maintenance shed & museum would have had to have been built - HE now objected. He dug his heels in; a couple of years passed, and the funding expired. Turned out that these two had local “history”, and anything that one approved of, the other would childishly get “over-sensitive” about, and object to from then on, as a “principle”! Ho hummmm! The one that got away.

Superb, NIR, good detective work! I remain fascinated by these six-wheel things.... The “E121” class, perhaps!

Such a thing WAS actually planned, and got past the first approval of funding stage, about 25 years ago! It would have been a small, but very fantastic line about 2km long, from the shore of Lough Macnean to Belcoo station. For economy, no steam was planned, but approval had been gained to run Railcar "B" (before it ever was scheduled to go to Downpatrick), a "G" class with 2 Midland 6-wheelers (which did often operate on the line when the SLNCR was short of stock), and the ex-NCC railcar No. 1 at Whitehead. The scheme foundered due to bickering between two of the local landowners over whose lands it would pass. I still have the paperwork. "Lough Erne" would be placed, courtesy of a long-term loan by the RPSI, on display in the now-demolished goods shed as a static exhibit.

Jayyysus; one trump is enough! (........sorry, I'll get me coat.......!!)

Absolutely inspirational historical detective work, RichL; I think I'm not the only one following this fascinating thread! Looking forward to seeing the results.

Yes, I believe she was withdrawn in 1963, though probably was stopped before that. Livery - in NCC times, unlined, plain black. In UTA times, the “roundel” device (she never got the later crest), with a red coupling rod and the attractive red and light beige UTA lining.