jhb171achill

Yer man's pipe is in the wrong livery.......

Interesting! See how even before being in traffic much longer than the time taken to go through a wash, the lettering "A60" (towards the end of the clip) is already getting worn off! These things, don't forget, weren't painted - bare metal. Hardly conducive to lettering staying put. Livery details too: on "silver" locos, numerals were pale green, while on unpainted carriages they were initially red. Never black, as I've seen on at least one model.

Excellent, Weshty, that was quick! I'll be along to you for some in the Noo Year.... Is it possible to do the stencil version of the snail? Weathering of wagons after applying transfers is of course feasible, but they used to get so bad, so faded, that watery wishy-washy grubby looking numerals and decals would also be a distinct advantage. Of course, anyone striving for visual accuracy in goods trains would need to weather the lot anyway! Yes, I was thinking of stock other than the IRM stuff. The ballasts are already sufficiently "used" looking, with accurate reproductions of ad-hoc repainting of just a patch to put a number on, as typical for many years. Bubbles, would of course be weathered within an inch of their lives, heartbreaking as it would be to stir a 3-pack of them in a bucket of watery cement*! What I had in mind were wooden open wagons, Palvans, old wooden goods vans, repainted ex-GNR stuff, H vans and the likes. (* Do not try this at home. No bubbles were harmed in the making of this comment. May contain traces of nuts. For illustrative purposes only. Terms and conditions apply.)

I've been continuing my research on a number of points over the last few days. I've come to my own conclusions - which will work for me, but not all, of course. I decided that it has to be 21mm - BUT. 21mm looks way, way better, and as David and others mention, why go to the bother of rivet counting on a tender, getting an exact style of bogie side or door handle - or LIVERY - correct to the letter, when something so elementary as the GAUGE is just plain WRONG, and obviously so. The "BUT" is the cost. I have the choice of making up all the track myself, which I don't relish, or paying beyond the means of a pensioner to get it done professionally, excellent though that job would be. I could live with converting the one J15 and the one B141 that I already own, though last night I ordered some more stuff from some of our illustrious suppliers. Thus, unless some way appears to get the track done cheaply, I am going to have to go for 00 gauge on this one. However, the idea is not dead; in the future, once this thing is finished, I am determined to give 21mm a go, perhaps some sort of shuttle thing with a CIE AEC railcar set. It could be something based on what Fintona might have looked like if it had survived. So, regrettably, in this case it's code 75 which at least looks better. We have seen major advances in Irish railway modelling in the last 15 years, starting with rudimentary re-branding of British stuff into garish orange and black (I know these are now in some cases collector's items, but I have to say I always thought they looked awful!) to the outputs of Murphy Models, IRM, Leslie's stuff, and others too. Carriages and locomotives can now be had to suit many prototypes. However, the glaring omission, and in which Irish railway modelling is still 40 years ago, is track. Nobody would seriously think that it's OK to build a 4mm scale Co. Donegal or Isle of Man layout on standard (scale 4ft gauge!) 00 scale track, but the Irish modeller has no alternative unless he is wealthy or at the upper end of the modelling skill set. Those of us in Dublin or Belfast or a few other places can join clubs and get some help, and indeed I can, but that's only the answer for some of us. The British have their P4 and EM standards, as 00 isn't even right for 4ft 8.5in gauge - whoever invented 00!! Even in the big market that is the UK, it's a niche market even there. That being the case, it'll necer be mainstream commercial here to have 21mm, but it should be! At the very least, it is worth emphasising to our intrepid model manufacturers, (some of whom might comment here?) that at the very least they might design their future models in such a way that a simple change of wheelset would facilitate re-gauging. I know that, for example, if I had an enormous layout with dozens of locomotives, and several hundred items of rolling stock, even if cheap 21mm track appeared, I wouldn't even dream of changing as it would mean a humungous queue of things to be converted. So; food for thought. Meantime, the planned offering should appear in some form in the new year, but it will be, for now and most regrettably, 00 gauge.

I'm just wondering aloud (partly in general, partly for our good colleagues here who make transfers) what chance there is of any of the following becoming available..... All too often we see pristine wagons with crystal clear snow white logos and numerals. This would virtually never be the case in real life, except for the day the new wagon left the building shops in Inchicore. Severe weathering and fading is what's needed to approach any degree of operational realism. So, what I seek are: Weathered flying snail STENCILS as applied to wagons after 1955 or so. Weathered sets of numbers of both the fonts used by CIE on wagons from the 1940s to the present day. Weathered CIE roundels both in all-white, and white lettering surrounded with tan "wheel" as used on H and Palvans in the 1960s. Thoughts? If these things were cheap enough to make, I'd get a quantity done and sell off what I didn't need. Letraset standard fonts, modern "arial" style gleaming white print just looks awful.

And now the 2700s are history (for the moment)...

Yes!

Great stuff, MikeO! Any pics? Incidentally, I had another thought. I had a notion the end windows weren't the same as British ones but I am not sure. I must check! The gangways were standard Irish, of course, not British Pullman type.

See attached; this, with gold lining, is the ONLY authentic "snail" for steam engines and carriages. Post-1955, in lighter green livery, sometimes without gold lining. In all other cases, with, same as green buses.

Yes, there was a glut of such things back then, ranging from high-quality models specially liveries, to crude children's toys. Even the real thing; a number of USA railways painted locomotives in traffic in patriotic-based liveries.

Couldn't agree more. Well done, Karl.

Ah - matchboarded panelling? Yes, the Irish ones had that. I don't know if all of the British ones did. Get rid of the Pullman name / crests and gold lining, paint the roof darker grey, and repaint the brown above the windows in cream, and you've got a reasonable approximation if an Irish one in GSR days. Might be as easy to just paint it green with light green lining!

Not the place here, but I don't think CCOB ever covered himself with anything but shame anywhere.

If they eventually restore the Waterside station in Derry, it ought to go there.

Track was mostly chaired on main lines, with soleplates increasingly used as this period went on, especially after the 1960s. Secondary lines and sidings were spiked directly to sleepers usually with rail of lighter section. Some spiked sidings were still to be seen in obscure places until comparatively recently - maybe early 1990s. Many chairs only seemed to have three screws! The GNR and CIE used rectangular chairs, while NCC ones were curved round on the inner side. Examples of all three may still be seen on sidings; some GSR soleplates may be seen in Galway, or were until only months ago when some of the old track was cleared. I am sure that soleplates of GSR and CIE origin are still kicking about in use on sidings.

The GSR painted carriage roofs a mid-grey, and this would have applied to the Pullmans too. They never had the dedicated British brown and cream Pullman livery here as such; but (a) they did initially have the word "Pullman" on them; jhbSenior recalls lettering above window level in gold shaded black and red (standard GSR carriage livery font) saying "Great Southern Pullman" at an early stage, when maroon though. (b) While it wasn't actually the formal Pullman livery, by coincidence the GSR had their own brown and cream livery for a short time (about 1927/8 to mid 30s). This had apparently the same shade of brown as the GWR in Britain, and the brown section (lower) was separated from the cream above by a one-inch black line. Another two black lines were placed immediately above window level, and just below cantrail level, there being no brown above the windows like on the British ones/ Roofs, as always, mid grey. Indeed, it was only well into the CIE era that roofs began to be black. While in the darker (bus / loco shade) CIE green pre-1955, roofs were generally grey, but some photos appear to show black appearing then. When the ghastly unpainted "livery" appeared on new-builds, the roof was unpainted too! After that, with the lighter green, roofs black, which carried on, obviously, right through the "black'n'tan" era. Back to the Pullmans, then. You can have the above brown & cream (black ends too), the standard GSR (LMS shade) maroon with black ends and dark grey roof, or the darker CIE green. None survived to have the lighter CIE green. With both GSR liveries, "Great Southern Pullman" or "Pullman" adorned the sides above window level, and unlike the British ones none of them had names, or "Car No. 444" on the sides. I'm pretty certain that the Pullman crest was never displayed on them. The actual Pullman organisation didn't control them like in Britain - they were fully acquired after only a short time by the GSR, after which repaints would probably have had no "Pullman" wording at all. The "umber" was simply cream, which had got weathered! In steam days, anyone who has ever seen a coach in regular use will see this happening. Look at old pics of Donegal coaches when in use, or for those of us lucky enough to see South African steam in the 1970s / 80s / 90s, same. They carried both the GSR brown and cream (as opposed to Pullman brown and cream) AND the GSR maroon at different times prior to repainting in green by CIE at some stage between 1945 and 1946/7. "....Were there matching boards ( if that is the right term)below the waist on the Irish version?...." Not sure what you mean by that?

800?

Typo!!!!

Ah! Yes...... Excellent stuff.

The loco fits in very well.... while J15s never got anywhere near Bantry, the weathered finish to the paintwork on the shed and the (correct CIE grey!) loco finish look just right for 1950s CIE. A Bandon tank next - I know you've one on the way - now that'll be a sight to behold. The SSM ex-MGWR "J16" 0.6.0T will of course also fit well into a West Cork layout, as will any amount of (filthy!) "C" class diesels!

The snow's the wrong shade of white.......

Looks fantastic. I love the scenery on this layout too.

What! An outline drawing of a bubble in CIE green!!! On a sign! What next! 800 in Translink "red bull"? Where's me smelling salts..... I'm not sure that's a fully correct "flying snail" on that wagon. Czech it out for yourself......

I'm not into British stuff either, but if I was, I suspect either the LMS or GWR would be good companies to concentrate initially on, or 1970s BR. Most pre-group modellers seem to prefer LMS / GWR, judging by display layouts and Hornby catalogues, while after BR, well, there's really SO much you wouldn't know where to start. Perhaps a locomotive of the most common types (classes 47 or 31?) which spanned a greater period and covered a greater geographical spread would be the way to go. In terms of carriages, clearly a Mk 1 or Mk 2 would be the most versatile. With a market as big as that in Britain, and the overall very high standards, and greater interest than here in extreme accuracy, there is clearly a great place for this venture. But there is competition, I would think? I could say "pick something too obscure and nobody will buy it". However, a market is a market, and even a somewhat obscure thing by British standards would surely outsell a sought-after Irish one, as the Irish market is so very smaller. Thus, if you can make a go of bubbles and ballasts, and people like Leslie can sell H vans and beet trucks, it would seem that whatever way you do your costings and business case, you shouldn't need to be confined to the examples mentioned above. However, they might be good safe starters. I know I bang on about this, but unless you are modelling recent times post-"supertrain" in Ireland, the great, glaring gap in the market is six wheeled carriages, still in excursion use as late as 1963. I believe the very last ones were only officially retired in Cork in 1964. Prior to that, they were almost as much a feature of any passenger train, mixed in with bogies, for the preceding seventy years. the same applied in Britain, and the same gap exists there. You can get kits of very nice GWR long wheelbase four wheelers, but not 6 wheelers. Thus, a kit of a common type over there, or a RTR model, could have a side issue of selling the chassis separately to assist Irish modellers too. Both in Britain and Ireland, 30ft (120mm in scale) was a standard length for most companies. I accept that the ubiquitous MGWR variety, while essential on an Irish line in the 1950s and before, is too small to be commercial here. But with Britain having 13 times the population we have, and many modellers here doing British prototypes too, and proportionately a greater interest over there anyway, you could be looking at a potential market for anything of some 20 times that for bubbles, for example. Thus, something six-wheeled could possibly be viable. For modern image, you'll hardly go wrong with a very high-spec Mk. 3 open standard. (Or, as they call them, BSK, GHT, JYT, JHB, HGE types whatever all that stuff means....!) (Do you know what absolutely MADDENS me..... seeing a classification of an Irish coach at Whitehead, Cultra or Downpatrick described in origin or condition as "BR or before", or called a TSO, BST or some such drivel. They were NEVER PART OF BR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arrrrghghhgghghghhhhhh)

Excellent advice from all, and greatly appreciated. I'm more than happy enough to go down the 21mm route at this stage, and may do so with some stock, but the principal sticking points (pun, again!) are that while the layout will be small, over time there will be a considerable (I hope) variety of locos and rolling stock taking it in turns to traverse it. And - depending on cost. The cost of the actual layout in 21mm will not, as intimated above, be a killer, but over a period of time the awkwardness at best, and cost at worst, of converting every single thing tends to favour 00 gauge. I await answers to a couple of emails about the price of a couple of aspects of this, and that will ultimately decide. A possible project for a small manufacturer of Irish stuff might be four wheeled and bogie chassis in 21mm gauge, or at the least bogies. I know that for me, if such things were purchaseable, I would defintely go for 21mm. The comments made by others above about aspirations to great accuracy in other areas, and then setting things on unrealistically-gauged track is very valid indeed. In the long run, perhaps a solution is (money permitting!!!) the above, with 00 gauge and stock, for operations involving a great variety of stock taking it in turns to visit the terminus, with a separate layout for a much a more limited run of 21mm gauge and maybe one or two locos and a dozen wagons or so. I always thought a 21mm layout based on the Dublin & Blessington would be well worth looking into - two tramcars, two covered vans and two alternating locos would do the lot more than adequately. My sticking point right now is that I intend to have eventually quite a variation of stock which will cover various operating periods 1930s - 1980s.