jhb171achill

I met James Boyd forty years ago on an Indian narrow gauge railway, and got on with him like a house on fire. He was known as a reserved, indeed prickly and extremely private individual but we had a great time - shared interest in the T & D helped greatly! Tantalisingly, many of his photos have not been catalogued, let alone published. I know who owns them now and have often offered to assist in listing them. Time, however, is of the essence...........and the current owner of them doesn't seem in a hurry. Most, of course, is of British subjects by far, and with a strong emphasis on Welsh and Manx narrow gauge, as you'd expect.

Very interesting, thanks! Imagine if the GNR, NCC and BCDR had all been one company, between them owning all the yards and dock sidings in Belfast. You could imagine them getting a class of short-wheelbase but powerful shunters from H&W....

It's a better bet than the 2.6.0. As mentioned by others, an LMS 0.6.0 probably needs least work, though I would think there are a number of 0.6.0 tender locos that could be at the very least "botched" into a reasonable approximation, and others that a more ambitious conversion would be suitable for. In your period of modelling, (1950s, if I'm not mistaken) locos of this type would have practically monopolised goods traffic, so 0.6.0s of some sort are essential. In the fifties, the NCC locos had yet to appear on the line at all.

It was indeed..... and the hotel too. This is where my parents met: she worked in the GNR's hotel, and he was the District Engineer based at the time in Enniskillen......

The "whitish" band on some A and C classes was the eau-de-nil light green. Most had this line, though many didn't. On locos without the line, such as that above, a mid-side number was included instead of a "snail".

Always single track. Despite appearances, there's not quite enough room for double track plus necessary clearances. I am unaware of any plans, even tentative, ever being made to double any line in West Cork. With just two main line trains a day in each direction, for almost all of the line's life, and no commuter service on the outskirts of the city, there never would have been any need for it.

If I went into N, those Ivatt tanks alone would tempt me towards the railways of the People's Republic of Brexit...... I'm probably in a minority here, but I thought that the BR standard designs of the 1950s were very attractive. Did yiz know; the BR designs owe at least something to Inchicore. In the dying days of jhb171VerySenior's time at Inchicore (he retired in January 1945, 2 weeks into CIE), a deputation of LMS engineers were received as visitors. Seniorx2 himself had been with GSR delegations during his career, to Dahhby, (in Dahhbyshaaa in Brexitland) and also Dundalk and York Road. It would be an exaggeration by far to say that they spent their time on "jollies" like nowadays, but occasionally visits were made to discuss engineering and locomotive design matters of mutual importance. The LMS visit set the tone for several more visits in the late 40s and early 50s, when BR engineers from all four constituent companies were putting their heads together to come up with what would become the BR "standard" designs. I was told that several features used routinely by Inchicore were, as a result, incorporated into the BR designs. Unfortunately I don't know what they were, though I think that there was something to do with cab layout as one.

In UTA days they'd probably both have been galvanised silver/grey, heavily stained with coal smoke!

That NER 0.6.0 could, with a little alteration, be a basis for a reasonable MGWR J18 lookalike, while one of the Bachmann railcar sets looks very NIR-CAF-ish.

A little bit of adjustment to the front running plate, and a simple job on the cab and its a reasonable approximation, certainly! I've seen very convincing conversions of Fairbairn tanks to NCC "WT" class.

The water tower was an interesting one, with both broad and narrow gauge sides to it. Not too many of those about....Ballymena, Ballymoney...anywhere else? Ennis, possibly?

No, he had the other one. When they do that or short-change, I never give them a tip the whole night. In Dublin a pint can be anything from €4 to €6.80.....!

Both black Both white top Both "G" Perfection.

Now THAT would have been a sight to see!!!!

Top class. I love the faded and scruffy look of the green paintwork - exactly as I remember it in Westland Row, Amiens St, Strabane, Lisburn, Great Victoria Street and so on in the early 1960s! I'll never forget being taken up into signal cabins by jhb171Senior who knew most of the signalmen. There was always a smell of coal smoke from the crackling coal fire, and the teapot simmered on the hearth. The shiny brown lino floors and the bell codes, then the signalman lifts his cloth, wraps it round the levels, and crash! crash! crash! the signals and points are set for whatever's coming. Moments later, smoke drifts past the window as an unidentified, and filthy, steam engine passes underneath..... good memories... I think I've told this story before, but on one occasion in Kildare cabin (they were never "boxes" back then!) the usual clatter of bells and levers and "one of the new engines" came roaring through. It was, I think, a 141 straight out of the Murphy Models box, with a long rake of a motley collection of green carriages behind it. The very last, or second last, was black'n'tan. jhb171Senior: "Oh! Is that the new carriage livery?" Signalman (sounding unimpressed): "Yeah...... ye'd think we'd seen the last of the black and tans......"! Incidentally, if anyone is interested, visits may be arranged to both of the cabins at Downpatrick for photographing, measuring, etc.

I suppose that fifty years' neglect hasn't helped, Tony. Lisburn station survived intact, as did the road underdridges near Lambeg, which are the oldest railway bridges in Ireland, dating from the Ulster Railway Company. And - they're made of sandstone, which is about as durable as custard for making bridges with! Omagh was a fine station building, as was Strabane; it would be nice if they had survived even if no longer in railway use.

Yes, Mogul, quite possibly.... Could well be loaded at Strabane rather than Derry, to avoid humping large trucks of logs through the city streets! That would actually make a great basis for a very unusual layout. The ex-GNR station in use by CAFs, and let's say for artistic licence there's a through service from Dublin too - probably an ICR set! The old Donegal station is now a bus station, with the area where the narrow gauge tracks were being a timber loading depot........ While less likely in real life had it survived, on a layout there could also be a Ballina-type container hub, with various 071s or 201s arriving with the boxes each day..... The closure of the Derry Road ranks with the West Cork main line, the Belfast - Comber line and the Harcourt Street Line in Dublin as the most criminally insane of the closure fever of the mid 20th century.

You'd have no freight since 1965, apart from possible through Derry - Dundalk traffic. They'd have been hauled in the 70s by 141s probably, but long gone by now. As NIR80 says, CAFs would be the order of the day. You'd be looking at a straight run through with passing loops at Strabane, Omagh, Sixmilecross and Dungannon. Probably a two-hourly service to GVS. Enniskillen likewise, though if there was a Dundalk - Enniskillen service too, that would most likely be a 29000!

I wonder when the last of the South American ones was withdrawn? It would be amazing to find one in a scrapyard somewhere....

I saw that, Andy, many thanks. Reckon I'll be after several shortly...

Yes, me too. It's the track - way overscale.

Me, definitely. Scratch building in that scale needs a VERY fine and highly skilled modelling background, so for me, there would have to be a good and broad range of RTR stuff.

PRE-GROUPING AND GSR COACHES IN THE CIE ERA FOR MODELLERS The purpose of this article is to provide a brief summary of the types of wooden stock to be seen on the CIE system between 1950 and 1975. I’ll do it in two parts. This bit gives a bit of background to the wooden bodied vehicles still very much alive and well into the black’n’tan era, and in a few cases just past the “Supertrain” era. A few wooden bodied bogies of ex-GSWR origin could be seen alongside Mk 2 air-con “Supertrain” coaches for an overlap period of barely 2 years, 1972-4. The next instalment will concentrate on what Ratio / Hornby or other vehicles can be approximated to some of the actual types in existence in the post-1955, i.e. diesel era. Prepare yourself, what follows is a dry dusty and long winded piece; I did say I’d little else to do today! I’ll do the second bit over the next few days. I hope that it is of interest. Particularly with younger modellers in mind (to me, that’s anyone under forty!), it is important firstly to bear in mind how the average train on the average railway differed in times past. With the growing popularity of the “grey’n’green era” (1945-62) and the “black’n’tan era” (1962-72), it is easy for those seeking accuracy to see the past through the eyes of the present. Since the “Supertrain era” (1972-87), plus more modern times, it is the norm for a passenger or goods train to comprise a long line of a single type of vehicle. The opposite was the case almost from the dawn of the railway age. Many layouts today have this feature because today it IS accurate – it is prototypical. But in creating accurately a scene from any time prior to 1975 or so, even a long train could barely have two vehicles alike. Today, different types of trains have different couplings, different electrics, different corridor gangways (unless IE have sealed them over with tin foil). In the very recent past, EVERY vehicle on EVERY line, originating with EVERY company, had EXACTLY the same couplings. There was no such thing as “you can’t couple this to that” until the 1970s, when we find that Cravens or laminates can’t be mixed with Mk 2’s in traffic as the corridor connections weren’t compatible, and NIR’s 80s and Castles* weren’t compatible unless one was hauling the other dead. (* They were never called “450”s, still less “thumpers”, when in use!) So, during the black’n’tan and grey’n’green eras and before, if accuracy is the goal, we need to rethink entirely what’s on our layout. Instead of the common theme of trains of a number of identical vehicles – a “rake” of this and a “rake” of that – hauled by a variety of engines, it’s the other way round. Most lines had only one or two different types of loco, but rarely had two wagons or carriages behind them that were the same! So many GSWR branches rarely saw anything but J15s, thus a model would have half a dozen of them and nothing else, but no two carriages alike. Against all of this background, we might look at the bewildering array of carriages types, ages and origins pre-1970, or more so pre-1960. This is what the following will attempt to unravel. In 1925 all companies whose lines were entirely within the Irish Free State would amalgamate into the GSR. This excluded lines within the 26 counties which had a cross border element: the LLSR, CDR, SLNCR, DNGR and of course above all the GNR. Some of these companies were tiny, and possessed no stock of their own, being worked by a neighbour. Others (e.g. the Waterford & Tramore) had only a few vehicles, whereas the overwhelming majority of the GSR’s coaching stock was previously owned by the DSER, MGWR and GSWR. The distinctive curved-ended stock of the erstwhile WLWR was by now already included in GSWR stock, following their earlier takeover of that concern. The CBSCR had a reasonable stock of elderly relics of their own. There’s a lot more to the overall story than this, but suffice to say, as far as the modeller is concerned, what was still running in the 1950s onwards is probably of most interest. The purpose of this tome is to illustrate what is possible to represent in varying degrees of accuracy, at the top end of which is obviously a total scratchbuild from original plans. Many existing kits can be made to look like many prototypes – and there’s practically a prototype for everything. Carriages were built in small batches – often, as one-offs or a pair or trio. Take the “Pullmans” for example – they are not known to have ever run in one train, so a “rake” of them, possibly suitable for Britain, was most certainly not the case here. Instead, they’d put one on each of several trains. The rest of the train – anything and everything. Firstly, the design features. The Midland, like the GSWR, had two distinctive roof profiles, in each case the older “flat” (low curved) and the later “elliptical” (high curved). Each company had a distinct profile for the higher version, the MGWR one being somewhat flatter on top. Window heights and shapes, and door handle designs, gave away the company origin too. DSER stock had its own window design, but was often characterised by a visibly wider chassis, and a high-pitched curved roof. Midland stock was distinguished by windows with square bottom corners and curved top corners. WLWR stock usually had curved-in ends, like the English Midland Railway; the WLWR being the only Irish company to include this design feature. After CIE took over in 1945, they inherited a motley collection of museum pieces. Apart from the “Bredins” (as we now know them) or “steels” as they were then known, it was basically the same ageing stock inherited twenty years earlier by the GSR. However, from 1951, CIE started building their own stock (very much modelled on the “Bredins”) and this led to increasing withdrawal of the older types, the average age of which was now about forty five years. By 1950, most DSER types had been withdrawn. By 1955, only 19 ex-WLWR vehicles survived. These included the only six bogie vehicles that company ever owned – two each of thirds, composites and brake composites, all 48ft long. That’s 192mm body length in 00 scale. By 1959/60, only 7 were on the books. PASSENGER CARRYING BOGIE In traffic 1955 In traffic 1970 GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 188 6 26 0 MGWR 16 0 DSER Unknown - few 0 CBSCR 4 (see note below) 0 PASSENGER CARRYING 6 WHEEL GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 82 13 0 0 MGWR 68 0 DSER Unknown – possibly nil 0 CBSCR 2 0 NON PASSENGER CARRYING BOGIE GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 15 0 7 at least, possibly 11 0 MGWR 0 as far as known 0 DSER 0 as far as known 0 CBSCR 0 0 NON PASSENGER CARRYING 6 WHEEL GSWR 63 1* GSWR (Ex WLWR) 0 as far as known 0 MGWR Some in use but number unknown 0 CBSCR Possibly 1 0 *This was the last six-wheeled vehicle ever to operate in traffic with CIE. It was No. 79, dating from 1887. The last passenger carrying six-wheeled coaches were withdrawn officially in 1964, but were last used in 1963. It is believed that the last ever use of one of these was an ex-MGWR example in which a party of Cork area IRRS members travelled from Glanmire Road to Albert Quay and back in that summer. Mail vans are not included. Several ex-GSWR mail vans were in use a few years longer in the 1970s. For the West Cork system, nineteen vehicles were on the books in 1955, though most would be withdrawn in 1957. By 1959 / 60, four remained. Two were six-wheeled, one being of interest in having its origin on the LLSR before it had been converted to narrow gauge. The other two were very short bogies, 37ft and 48ft long. These non-standard products of the West Cork’s workshops at Albert Quay were for the sharply curved Courtmacsherry branch, where such relics lived on because newer coaches were too long for the curves. None strayed into the non-Cork world, thus models of these are only historically appropriate on a West Cork-based layout. Almost every Irish company had 30ft as their standard length for six-wheeled coaches, including the GSWR, DSER, WLWR and MGWR. So a 30ft scale chassis would be a good thing to have available even as a kit. That’s 120mm body length. The BCDR was different with several longer variations. Vehicles of ex-GSWR and WLWR origin just had their number inherited from GSWR days. Ex-MGWR carriages had “M” added, thus MGWR No. 124 was now 124M, while ex-Bandon stock had “B”, and DSER stock “D” after their numbers. Construction of some of the very first coaches technically introduced by the GSR had been started by the GSWR, and their “architecture” would be continued for several years – thus the very few coaches completed by the GSR are identical in design to GSWR types. Only after the “steels” came in, did a distinct GSR style emerge – very closely like the English LMS, whose lined maroon livery Inchicore would copy almost exactly from 1933. Early CIE types introduced 1951-3 would be similar to these “Bredins”, with the later “laminates” built between 1956 and 1959 being developments of these. I have not included details above of ex-GNR types which came into CIE stock in 1958. That's for another day. And then we’re off into the era of the Cravens, and after that it all went downhill fast as we stopped building, and started importing standard BR tin cans....... The Supertrain era is born! And jhb171achill slips into a coma; too old to hear new chimes, as yer man said. It has been decreed; all trains forever hence will have a standard rake of exactly the same type of vehicle, for ever and ever, amen. And they all lived happily ever after. Now finish yer cocoa. JB 060118

This is ABSOLUTELY true. Very well said indeed. When I started out, Hornby did a cheap little 0.4.0T, which depending on whether you wanted a red, green or blue one was called "Polly", "Nellie" or "Connie". It was actually a very nice little thing, very comparable with the better standards of the day and not as toy-like as some of its imitators ten and twenty years later. In my late teens, Irish-themed layouts were impossible without scratch building every single solitary thing, so mine was BR. I decided to add a few details to it and paint in In lined BR black as a shunter. It looked very well indeed in that guise - so entry level doesn't even need to mean "toy". Things like that are badly needed. Cheap to buy, but reasonable looking. And - sufficiently reasonable looking that if the child becomes a serious modelller they can still make something out of it later on if they want.

It's probably worth posting a pile of details relating to the history and development of, at the very least, the sort of wooden stock built between 1880 and 1925, and still seen in traffic well into the 1960s, and some cases '70s. I don't think I've too much to do today, so I'll put something together later if it's likely to be of interest. The last six wheeled vehicles in use were last used in 1963, though not technically withdrawn until a year later. The last gas lit and / or non-corridor stock in use was withdrawn in 1974; coincidentally by both NIR and CIE in the same year - therefore, most if the VERY last old wooden beasts managed to overlap "Supertrains" by two years. CIEs last were old GSWR veterans, some of former suburban origin, some main line. NIR's last were of GNR and NCC origin - mostly the latter. NIR held onto a couple of elderly vehicles even longer, as they had no logo-hauled stock to speak of other than the Enterprise. GNR brake third 114, now a rotting mush at Whitehead, was the last GNR coach in their iconic brown livery. It was never repainted green when it entered CIE ownership, being repainted directly into black'n'tan in 1967. Ex NCC third 526 and ex GNR K15 727 were the very last wooden carriages of any sort in passenger traffic - both surviving, miraculously, as railcar intermediates into the EIGHTIES! 526, in maroon and light grey, ended its days as an MED intermediate. What a contrast with the noisy, fume-filled tin cans either side of it, with deep wooden-framed red upholstery and a very comfortable ride! I last travelled in it, I think, in 1981. 727 ended its days in the modern maroon and blue as an intermediate in a 70 class set. It was taken to Whitehead for preservation, but along with sister GNR coach 595 (a brake standard withdrawn by NIR in 1974) a combination of north Antrim weather (the RPSI had NO carriage shed at all then!), poor quality wood (built in war years) and lack of cover, both rotted and fell to bits before the Society could do anything with them.