Official owners of 5T?

[Wexford70]

Hi Guys,

OK lock-down is getting to me, I admit it.

I am gnawing on a bone at the moment and it is trying to follow the train of ownership of the Tralee and Dingle 5T.

In response to an FOI request, the Council has confirmed it does not, nor has ever, owned the locomotive. The only proof of ownership I have seen is shown below.

Was anyone here a member or know a member of the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society? Would love to find out who has legal responsibility for the loco's preservation.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Wexford70
formatting

[Galteemore]

I think @DERAILEDmay have a clue or two - I vaguely recall he has some connections to GSRPS...

[jhb171achill]

Edgar Mead was an absolute gentleman. I travelled round india with him in 1979 and we found a Nasmyth Wilson 2.6.4T in service -  a 2ft gauge version of a Donegal Class 5 tank engine - blue instead of red...... Very knowledgeble man. I kept in touch with him for years..... he often invited me to The U S and A to see that loco, but I never got around to it.............

[airfixfan]

Any photos of the Indian version of an CDR Class 5? 

[Georgeconna]

Crickey that address on the letter is in the middle of Nowhere, Is this where the loco was planned to end up?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Georgeconna

[minister_for_hardship]

5 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Crickey that address on the letter is in the middle of Nowhere, Is this where the loco was planned to end up?

No I dont believe it is.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Any photos of the Indian version of an CDR Class 5? 

Yes - but WHERE!  I will try to find it. It's in a box somewhere here in an old album..........

It was on the Dhaulpur system which I travelled on. There were Baldwins and all sorts of 2ft gauge beauties - but we're talking Lough Swilly proportions, not Bala Lake! Huge beasts. Had a footplate run on a 4.8.2 tender loco.....

The Gwalior system was a treat as well, but that's another story. All was 100% steam, among less than a dozen lines I ever did where not even a trial run of anything non-steam had ever taken place!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Crickey that address on the letter is in the middle of Nowhere, Is this where the loco was planned to end up?

No, that's where Ed lived. the loco was to go in a public park which contained a heritage railway, with which he was heavily involved. He made the decision to buy it while travelling through the Barnesmore Gap in the sole surviving six-wheeler, No. 1 - now in Cultra - when he was here with several friends. They had come here to get the last of the narrow gauge, covering the C & L one day and Strabane - Killybegs and back a few days later. I can't remember if he told me that he did the West Clare - unlikely as it was all diesel. He and his friends had come here specifically to get as much steam as they could.

He was disappointed at the politically-motivated decimation of the GNR, as he had seen it all in action some years earlier on a previous visit.

Someone asked me once if Edgar knew the famous Dr. Cox, who assembled the Donegal stuff at Strabane for people to, eh, travel to, in order to retrieve anything of scrap value; as far as I recall, he didn't.

Interesting side anecdote: travelling with us was James I C Boyd, author of much superb material on Irish, Manx and Welsh narrow gauge. It was a highly interesting trip.....

[Garfield]

34 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

No, that's where Ed lived. the loco was to go in a public park which contained a heritage railway, with which he was heavily involved. He made the decision to buy it while travelling through the Barnesmore Gap in the sole surviving six-wheeler, No. 1 - now in Cultra - when he was here with several friends. They had come here to get the last of the narrow gauge, covering the C & L one day and Strabane - Killybegs and back a few days later. I can't remember if he told me that he did the West Clare - unlikely as it was all diesel. He and his friends had come here specifically to get as much steam as they could.

He was disappointed at the politically-motivated decimation of the GNR, as he had seen it all in action some years earlier on a previous visit.

Someone asked me once if Edgar knew the famous Dr. Cox, who assembled the Donegal stuff at Strabane for people to, eh, travel to, in order to retrieve anything of scrap value; as far as I recall, he didn't.

Interesting side anecdote: travelling with us was James I C Boyd, author of much superb material on Irish, Manx and Welsh narrow gauge. It was a highly interesting trip.....

I think George was referring to the Bray address, @jhb171achill... 

It's one that appeared regularly in GSRPS newsletters back in the day as it's where the Society's secretary lived.

[Galteemore]

45 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes - but WHERE!  I will try to find it. It's in a box somewhere here in an old album..........

It was on the Dhaulpur system which I travelled on. There were Baldwins and all sorts of 2ft gauge beauties - but we're talking Lough Swilly proportions, not Bala Lake! Huge beasts. Had a footplate run on a 4.8.2 tender loco.....

The Gwalior system was a treat as well, but that's another story. All was 100% steam, among less than a dozen lines I ever did where not even a trial run of anything non-steam had ever taken place!

Is this close  ? 
 

 

[jhb171achill]

42 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Is this close  ? 
 

 

Yes!!

[airfixfan]

Have been struggling to find the Blue Indian version of Drumboe in my Nasmyth Wilson works lists

 Any more details like year built etc?

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Have been struggling to find the Blue Indian version of Drumboe in my Nasmyth Wilson works lists

 Any more details like year built etc?

No.

It had the trademark triangular worksplate on it, and the clear family resemblance, like a somewhat narrower Donegal engine. When i find details I will post; I sold the Indian locomotive book which would have given me the answer years ago!

I can't recall, but my guess is that it was built about 1900-10?

The one in the pic above LOOKS very like it, but I don't think IS it.

[Mayner]

Going back to the original question my understanding is that 5T was originally loaned by the GSRPS to the company the Tralee and Blennerville Railway with the owners having (very) limited access to the locomotive.  

I also understand that there is considerable resistance to removing 5T from Blennerville to another restoration site.

The Tralee and Blennerville was expected to operate on a fully commercial basis financed under a Business Expansion Scheme  (BES)that allowed the company shareholders to obtain tax relief on their investment. https://www.companyformations.ie/other-services/business-expansion-scheme-bes/.

Its likely the company ceased operation once it became obvious that the railway was not generating sufficient income to pay staff, maintain locomotives rolling stock, way and works and that additional capital investment or loans were required to overhaul 5T. 

It looks like the Tralee Council and more recently Kerry County Council are reluctant to get involved for similar reasons.

 

 

 

 

[airfixfan]

Another example of an Irish Council.getting involved with Heritage Railway projects and doing more damage than good! Derry City Council and the Foyle Valley Railway. Disputes led to the Council closing both Museum and Heritage Railway down on a temporary basis in July 2000.

 Railway has and will never reopen but Museum due to reopen next month apparently. But that has been promised before umpteen times and did not happen.

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

Going back to the original question my understanding is that 5T was originally loaned by the GSRPS to the company the Tralee and Blennerville Railway with the owners having (very) limited access to the locomotive.  

I also understand that there is considerable resistance to removing 5T from Blennerville to another restoration site.

The Tralee and Blennerville was expected to operate on a fully commercial basis financed under a Business Expansion Scheme  (BES)that allowed the company shareholders to obtain tax relief on their investment. https://www.companyformations.ie/other-services/business-expansion-scheme-bes/.

Its likely the company ceased operation once it became obvious that the railway was not generating sufficient income to pay staff, maintain locomotives rolling stock, way and works and that additional capital investment or loans were required to overhaul 5T. 

It looks like the Tralee Council and more recently Kerry County Council are reluctant to get involved for similar reasons.

 

 

 

 

In all reality there’s only one solution - give the thing to a bona fide heritage railway.

[Galteemore]

Suir Valley would give her a nice leg stretch.....

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

In all reality there’s only one solution - give the thing to a bona fide heritage railway.

Reading between the lines, not going to happen. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Reading between the lines, not going to happen. 

Correct, sadly.

[Georgeconna]

flipping Ireland has a right ar$e about T!Tway of doing things...

 

[Wexford70]

15 hours ago, Mayner said:

Going back to the original question my understanding is that 5T was originally loaned by the GSRPS to the company the Tralee and Blennerville Railway with the owners having (very) limited access to the locomotive.  

I also understand that there is considerable resistance to removing 5T from Blennerville to another restoration site.

The Tralee and Blennerville was expected to operate on a fully commercial basis financed under a Business Expansion Scheme  (BES)that allowed the company shareholders to obtain tax relief on their investment. https://www.companyformations.ie/other-services/business-expansion-scheme-bes/.

Its likely the company ceased operation once it became obvious that the railway was not generating sufficient income to pay staff, maintain locomotives rolling stock, way and works and that additional capital investment or loans were required to overhaul 5T. 

It looks like the Tralee Council and more recently Kerry County Council are reluctant to get involved for similar reasons.

 

Thanks for the info.

6 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Suir Valley would give her a nice leg stretch.....

Sadly too big for the 10.5 km due to platform clearance and tight curve radius.

[Wexford70]

For reference, last photo of 5T taken in 2017 by RPSI. Not touched since and concerns have been raised over the building in which she is stored.

Surely a risk of bearing damage at least.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Wexford70

[minister_for_hardship]

4 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

flipping Ireland has a right ar$e about T!Tway of doing things...

 

I'm afraid that's the way it is.

Simply put there's neither interest nor motivation to do anything.

[airfixfan]

Oh dear looks as bad as some of the CDR Class 5 locoscwhen they were abandoned at Strabane for over 25 years!

[Mayner]

The basic problem is that 5T would require a sponsor or a group willing to commit upwards of €20-30,000 annually without the expectation of a return to a fund the overhaul and maintain the loco.

I had an involvement with a narrow gauge (mainly volunteer) Welsh Highland Heritage Railway in the UK of similar length to the Tralee and Blennerville, fare income just about covered operating costs (fuel, oil, running maintenance) but not the cost of restoring and overhauling locos and rolling stock which is funded directly by society members, appeals and bequests.

During the last 20 years over £100,000 was raised by donations  (membership and general public) for the overhaul of the railways flagship Hunslet 2-6-2T locomotive Russell,  Bagnall 0-4-2T Gelert was fitted with a new boiler in 2018 as a result of sponsorship and direct funding by the owners, two replica bogie coaches were constructed and the restoration of a Baldwin 4-6-0PT commenced as a result of a bequest by a late member. The preservation society is small by UK standards with approx. 1000 members.

[jhb171achill]

Am I seeing, in that pic, the loco frame cut open lengthways???? Buffer beam half cut across???

What ON EARTH have they done to it!

[NIR]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Am I seeing, in that pic, the loco frame cut open lengthways???? Buffer beam half cut across??

It's just a weird perspective with the smokebox door open between the toolboxes

[Galteemore]

As NIR says, an  illusion, JB, but it does look as if they are trying to make it into a compound with an oil drum as the low pressure cylinder!

Edited May 28, 2021 by Galteemore

[Georgeconna]

14 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

Thanks for the info.

Sadly too big for the 10.5 km due to platform clearance and tight curve radius.

Was this not build on Standard Gauge formation or is it some deviations near the new roads, Not that I don't believe you but how is it too tight, Around the point areas?

 

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Am I seeing, in that pic, the loco frame cut open lengthways???? Buffer beam half cut across???

What ON EARTH have they done to it!

It looks like the boiler was lifted and the tubes cut out for a boiler inspection with the section of running board between the buffer beam and smokebox removed for access.

The boiler and firebox require major work or replacement, the current boiler appears to date from a 1906 rebuild due to age, 53 years work in railway service and 62 years deterioration while in preservation.

The loco was in regular use on the T&D up to the mid 1940s  and was heavily used putting up the highest mileage of the three ex-T&D locos during its 10 years service on the Cavan & Leitrim.

The loco basically needs a wealthy sponsor or a group prepared to put commit serious money to restoring and maintaining the loco

[minister_for_hardship]

2 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Was this not build on Standard Gauge formation or is it some deviations near the new roads, Not that I don't believe you but how is it too tight, Around the point areas?

 

Theres a tight chicane underneath the motorway. 5T is massively oversized and expensive for the needs of the Suir Valley. I'm sure if there was ever a suggestion that 5T were to leave Tralee there'd be a host of objections from people who cared about it all of a sudden.

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, NIR said:

It's just a weird perspective with the smokebox door open between the toolboxes

Phew!!

3 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Was this not build on Standard Gauge formation or is it some deviations near the new roads, Not that I don't believe you but how is it too tight, Around the point areas?

 

Yes, it’s on the site of the GNR goods and loco yards - a wide site rather than a single long track, so loads of room for twists and turns...

[jhb171achill]

34 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I'm sure if there was ever a suggestion that 5T were to leave Tralee there'd be a host of objections from people who cared about it all of a sudden.
 

Exactly!

Edited May 28, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Georgeconna]

grand, Well keep it in the shed so much better for the Kerry Council 

Do they pay storage on this I wonder?

 

[Mayner]

26 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I'm sure if there was ever a suggestion that 5T were to leave Tralee there'd be a host of objections from people who cared about it all of a sudden.
 

Exactly!

Just like the the protests about moving 5C Slieve Callan to Moyasta for restoration & Oliver Moylan refusing to get off the loco.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/restored-steam-engine-back-on-the-tracks-after-57-years-1.691033

I wonder how many would pitch physically or financially to restore the loco or re-open the railway.