N Scale Ballywillan, Co Longford.

[Patrick Davey]

Just superb - everything!!

Bet the OO building felt huge in comparison!

Great work Kevin - I always enjoy your updates.

[Kevin Sweeney]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:16 AM, Patrick Davey said:

Just superb - everything!!

Bet the OO building felt huge in comparison!

Great work Kevin - I always enjoy your updates.

OO certainly feels huge. nice to work with thought, much bigger margins of error than in n scale. i have a hankering to make a big building in OO, time will tell\

[Kevin Sweeney]

I'm building up a nice collection of OO buildings.

 

[derek]

10 hours ago, Kevin Sweeney said:

I'm building up a nice collection of OO buildings.

 

Love the signal box, Kevin

[Kevin Sweeney]

If I might impose on the community by asking for some help. Someone based in the UK has asked if I would make them a OO card model of Dungannon station. I am very interested in this commission and getting into that line of work, but I have no idea how much to charge for that kind of job.

They have supplied me with some oblique photos. I have already spent nearly half a day studying them and am still at least a half a day away from having a complete set of drawings. The model is further complicated by the fact that the ground is sloping, being about 2 foot higher roadside, than trackside.

There are canopies on both trackside and roadside, I would be worried about them being damaged when the model is being shipped so I'm thinking I need to make a custom made wooden box with some kind of internal card structure to hold the model in place. This in itself will be an other major job to design and build. 

Any advise on how to price this job and any other issues I need to consider would be very much appreciated.

[Darius43]

Architectural model makers typically charge £1,000 to £2,500 for a model of size 200x200x250mm.  Those are professional rates for businesses with overheads etc. but do not underestimate the time taken to produce a model of the quality that you exemplify in your work, which is superb by the way.

In determining a total fee you will need to account for the time taken researching the station building(s), gathering whatever photos and drawings are available and then planning how the model will be constructed even before building commences.

Based on your experience of the time taken to complete your models and a suitable hourly rate you would be surprised at how quickly the fee mounts up.  Add to that the model topography issues and the shipping box etc.

As to a suitable hourly rate I would suggest no less than £75/hr (or the equivalent in Euros) and, as you are clearly a talented modeller, probably more than that.

At the end of the day the fee may be more than your prospective client is prepared to pay but I would advise you stick to your guns, so to speak.

Another facet to building models to order is that it may cease to be “fun”, especially if the client wants to set a deadline or orders further models.  This can leave you with little time for your own modelling and lead to stress, especially if the client wants changes or is not happy with something.

I have built a few models to order and it was not a pleasant experience. Consequently, I now decline all requests to do so and only build the occasional model for friends for free.

Cheers

Darius

 

Edited September 23 by Darius43

[Kevin Sweeney]

21 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

Architectural model makers typically charge £1,000 to £2,500 for a model of size 200x200x250mm.  Those are professional rates for businesses with overheads etc. but do not underestimate the time taken to produce a model of the quality that you exemplify in your work, which is superb by the way.

In determining a total fee you will need to account for the time taken researching the station building(s), gathering whatever photos and drawings are available and then planning how the model will be constructed even before building commences.

Based on your experience of the time taken to complete your models and a suitable hourly rate you would be surprised at how quickly the fee mounts up.  Add to that the model topography issues and the shipping box etc.

As to a suitable hourly rate I would suggest no less than £75/hr (or the equivalent in Euros) and, as you are clearly a talented modeller, probably more than that.

At the end of the day the fee may be more than your prospective client is prepared to pay but I would advise you stick to your guns, so to speak.

Another facet to building models to order is that it may cease to be “fun”, especially if the client wants to set a deadline or orders further models.  This can leave you with little time for your own modelling and lead to stress, especially if the client wants changes or is not happy with something.

I have built a few models to order and it was not a pleasant experience. Consequently, I now decline all requests to do so and only build the occasional model for friends for free.

Chee

Darius

 

Thanks Darius for that comprehensive answer, lots of food for though there. especially your advise about sticking to your guns.

I can really appreciate your point about how doing what had been a hobby as a job can knock all the fun out of it. As a musician I'm very well aware of that problem. For the last eight years I had been a fulltime carer, but that has now run its course and I'm embarking on the next chapter. I have two major skills, model making and guitar playing. I have too choose which one to do for money and which one for fun. The attraction of model making is that I can work in my kitchen and be in bed by midnight, no long journeys or late nights.

[David Holman]

 Have done various demonstration stands at shows and remember being asked once if I'd do commissions. Being a primary school headteacher at the time, there was little space in life for my own models, let alone somebody else's. I pointed to a recently built model of Saffron Walden loco shed on my stand, advising the gent that [though the cost of materials was minimal], it probably involved about 80-100 hours of my time. I could see him quickly do the sums before thanking me and walking away.

 Your skills merit a decent hourly rate, Kevin. The issue is finding people willing to pay and there are folk out there with more money than time - but don't give up the music either. Jules Holland, Pete Waterman and Rod Stewart seem to combine music and model railways fairly well...

[Kevin Sweeney]

12 hours ago, David Holman said:

 Have done various demonstration stands at shows and remember being asked once if I'd do commissions. Being a primary school headteacher at the time, there was little space in life for my own models, let alone somebody else's. I pointed to a recently built model of Saffron Walden loco shed on my stand, advising the gent that [though the cost of materials was minimal], it probably involved about 80-100 hours of my time. I could see him quickly do the sums before thanking me and walking away.

 Your skills merit a decent hourly rate, Kevin. The issue is finding people willing to pay and there are folk out there with more money than time - but don't give up the music either. Jules Holland, Pete Waterman and Rod Stewart seem to combine music and model railways fairly well...

I will keep playing music and will do a few small choice gigs near home, but I don't want to go back to it full time. Playing informal sessions with friends, playing what you like to play and just pleasing yourself is all fun. Once you get paid to play, you have to play what the venue want, deal with the drunks, and the venue owners trying to renegotiate the deal at the end of the night. Also at 61, the late nights catch up with you really fast. As Darius points out making models for money brings its own stresses, I guess it's a case of choose your poison.

I have promised my potential client an answer today. I estimate 80 hours work to complete the build, with about 10 done already, the drawings are nearly done. I will price those hours at a reasonable rate, one that will give me a good return on my time, but which allows for the fact that my overheads are almost zero. If he says yes good, if he declines good too.

I've being doing a lot of time and motion studies in the last month investigating the practicalities of selling finished models and/or kits. As you can see in the photo I'm building up quite the collection of OO GW buildings. I also have three complete crossing keepers cottages not in the photo. The second and subsequent build in each case take a fraction of the time that the first one required. With this way of working I could sell a whole station, station house, signal cabin, goods shed, water tower and platform shelter for the same price as a single once off building.

Either way my main advantage is that my kids are reared, I own my own home and I'm debt free. What ever I decide to do i won't have to work very hard at it to keep my little ship afloat.

[Kevin Sweeney]

I made my offer yesterday. it was declined but it was an interesting exercise for me. Without the advise I got here I would pitched the price a lot lower. The whole process of thinking out the work involved and costing it was a useful learning experience. And I now have a set of drawings of Dungannon Station. Attached is the plan I sent to the client.

[GSR 800]

On 24/9/2024 at 10:39 AM, Kevin Sweeney said:

I will keep playing music and will do a few small choice gigs near home, but I don't want to go back to it full time. Playing informal sessions with friends, playing what you like to play and just pleasing yourself is all fun. Once you get paid to play, you have to play what the venue want, deal with the drunks, and the venue owners trying to renegotiate the deal at the end of the night. Also at 61, the late nights catch up with you really fast. As Darius points out making models for money brings its own stresses, I guess it's a case of choose your poison.

I have promised my potential client an answer today. I estimate 80 hours work to complete the build, with about 10 done already, the drawings are nearly done. I will price those hours at a reasonable rate, one that will give me a good return on my time, but which allows for the fact that my overheads are almost zero. If he says yes good, if he declines good too.

I've being doing a lot of time and motion studies in the last month investigating the practicalities of selling finished models and/or kits. As you can see in the photo I'm building up quite the collection of OO GW buildings. I also have three complete crossing keepers cottages not in the photo. The second and subsequent build in each case take a fraction of the time that the first one required. With this way of working I could sell a whole station, station house, signal cabin, goods shed, water tower and platform shelter for the same price as a single once off building.

Either way my main advantage is that my kids are reared, I own my own home and I'm debt free. What ever I decide to do i won't have to work very hard at it to keep my little ship afloat.

 

25 minutes ago, Kevin Sweeney said:

I made my offer yesterday. it was declined but it was an interesting exercise for me. Without the advise I got here I would pitched the price a lot lower. The whole process of thinking out the work involved and costing it was a useful learning experience. And I now have a set of drawings of Dungannon Station. Attached is the plan I sent to the client.

All things considered, I'd say a few kits of different stations, signal boxes, gatekeepers houses, water towers, etc. could sell decently.

 

[Kevin Sweeney]

21 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

 

All things considered, I'd say a few kits of different stations, signal boxes, gatekeepers houses, water towers, etc. could sell decently.

 

I think your probably right. I'm currently building my 4th GW station house in a month, but this time I'm trying to simplify the build process. My methods of building are too complex for a kit. Even if I never sold a kit, the process of thinking this out will make for faster model making.

Edited September 26 by Kevin Sweeney

[Mayner]

After over 10 years manufacturing kits and rtr 4mm models, I basically decided that it is not worth it financially to continue producing kits and models mainly as a result of high production costs and a relatively low level of demand.

I comissioned a laser cut model of a GSWR signal cabin from my own CAD work through York Model Making several years ago and considered supplying the model as a kit directly through York Model Making (to minimise shipping costs to Irish and UK customers.

I had one indirect enquiry from a customer in the UK asking whether he could order the kit directy from York Model Making, but seems to have been put off by the price.

Card or etched kit design and assembly tends to be complex as your converting a 2D drawing into a 3D object, producing a 3D model/design is a totally different ball game to 2D drafting but producing a model as a 3D printed object may be a better option than a card or laser cut kit.

Hopefully ceasing to produce models comercially will free up time for my own modelling projects, I have already have enough 3D printed wagons (kits and rtr) for my own use, but have several etched loco and coach kits to complete and assemble Kiltimagh Station buildings from Wills material parts and my own custom etches  I have had in stock for several years.

[Kevin Sweeney]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Card or etched kit design and assembly tends to be complex as your converting a 2D drawing into a 3D object, producing a 3D model/design is a totally different ball game to 2D drafting but producing a model as a 3D printed object may be a better option than a card or laser cut kit.

I'm very conscious of the level of precision needed for a kit. I've built 3 GW station houses in a row, refining the accuracy of the parts with each build and they are still not good enough. It would take several more builds I think to get them all accurate enough for a kit.

I'm leaning towards the idea of selling finished models. I have the build time on the GW station down to 10 hours. This is cutting all parts by hand (my cutting machine died recently), a new cutting machine would take 3 hours off the build time. By simplifying my build process and making small batches of 3 or 4 at a time, i could probably knock another hour off the build time. This would allow me to get a reasonable return on my time and still sell a finished model at a very affordable price.

[Kevin Sweeney]

After a break I'm back working on my MGW station design. I reduced the number of parts in this stage of the model to 15, not including the windows and doors. My earlier builds had almost 50 parts and was a more complex structure to assemble. If all goes well I intend to sell a finished version of this model for about 200 euros.

I had a meeting in Cavan County Museum recently. There will be a week long exhibition of my models in the museum in April, details to be finalised in March. This is my collection of exhibition ready models at the moment. But I planning to have a few more ready for the exhibition, including a model of the County Museum itself.