Irish models and availability

[seagoebox]

Jb1911... I know this is slightly outside your time period ( it is from the Railway Gazette series of articles dated December 1930) featuring the singling of double track by the GSR on the former MGWR section between 1927 & 1930.

The diagrams show the layout post-singling if you decided to go for that option !

If you want any other MGWR stations let me know, the Railway Gazette diagram covers from Clonsilla to Inny Junction, Mullingar to Ballinasloe  and Athlone to Roscommon.

[Northroader]

The Railway Signalling Co did a lot of work for the GS&WR and the MGWR following the Regulation of the Railways Act. The Alphagaphix kit for Foynes signal box would make a nice base to work from.

[StevieB]

Absolutely fascinating stuff. Can we have some more, please?

Stephen

[Jb1911]

7 hours ago, seagoebox said:

Jb1911... I know this is slightly outside your time period ( it is from the Railway Gazette series of articles dated December 1930) featuring the singling of double track by the GSR on the former MGWR section between 1927 & 1930.

The diagrams show the layout post-singling if you decided to go for that option !

If you want any other MGWR stations let me know, the Railway Gazette diagram covers from Clonsilla to Inny Junction, Mullingar to Ballinasloe  and Athlone to Roscommon.

Thanks. This is a small bit outside of the time frame but having the track plan for things like the sidings is no harm for me anyways. I actually have the track plans needed for moate. 
 

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

The Railway Signalling Co did a lot of work for the GS&WR and the MGWR following the Regulation of the Railways Act. The Alphagaphix kit for Foynes signal box would make a nice base to work from.

Hi mate thanks for getting in touch. I don’t think the foynes signal box is entirely accurate to moates signal box which I have attached a picture of below. However you’ve got me thinking about the signal box I’m assuming that since it has the brick base which implies post civil war but still had the outside ladder which is more from before the civil war, I’m now wondering about the history of the signal box and whether it was overhauled around the time I’m modelling and if it was different in the 1920 or so period. 1915-1925 to be exact. 
 

although I have found no real records of any incident happening in the station it does seem quite likely with the incidents that happened during the civil war next door in Streamstown and if some of that carried over to moate. 
 

Anything is again appreciated and I’d love the insight of some of the more historically knowledgeable people in the forum. Make my life a lot easier. 
Thanks in advance 

 

jb 

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, Jb1911 said:

 

Hi mate thanks for getting in touch. I don’t think the foynes signal box is entirely accurate to moates signal box which I have attached a picture of below. However you’ve got me thinking about the signal box I’m assuming that since it has the brick base which implies post civil war but still had the outside ladder which is more from before the civil war, I’m now wondering about the history of the signal box and whether it was overhauled around the time I’m modelling and if it was different in the 1920 or so period. 1915-1925 to be exact. 
 

although I have found no real records of any incident happening in the station it does seem quite likely with the incidents that happened during the civil war next door in Streamstown and if some of that carried over to moate. 
 

Anything is again appreciated and I’d love the insight of some of the more historically knowledgeable people in the forum. Make my life a lot easier. 
Thanks in advance 

 

jb 

Moate Cabin looks like the original dating from the 1890s with modern replacement windows

Post Civil War MGW Cabins were generally built on a "Rockfaced" concrete block base, the eaves overhang on the post Civil War cabins appears larger and the roof pitch shallower.

Rockfaced concrete blocks possibly manufactured by Moracrete an Irish owned a public works and civil engineering company that appears to have carried out post Civil War infrastructure re-building work.

The Peco/Ratio Platform/Ground Level Signal Box appears to be to a similar design https://peco-uk.com/products/platform-ground-level-signal-box.

The Ratio model is based on Highley Signal Box an 14 Level McKenzie and Holland Box dating from the 1880s

Signal box superstructures were basically modular in nature.

Two Ratio Cabins could be combined on a brick base (Wills Scenic Materials) to provide an additional window bay and form the larger 24 lever Cabin used at Moate.

Similar cabins were also used on the WLWR including some on timber (Listowel, Abbeyfeale) and some on brick (Tubbercurry) bases

 

[Jb1911]

20 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Moate Cabin looks like the original dating from the 1890s with modern replacement windows

Post Civil War MGW Cabins were generally built on a "Rockfaced" concrete block base, the eaves overhang on the post Civil War cabins appears larger and the roof pitch shallower.

Rockfaced concrete blocks possibly manufactured by Moracrete an Irish owned a public works and civil engineering company that appears to have carried out post Civil War infrastructure re-building work.

The Peco/Ratio Platform/Ground Level Signal Box appears to be to a similar design https://peco-uk.com/products/platform-ground-level-signal-box.

The Ratio model is based on Highley Signal Box an 14 Level McKenzie and Holland Box dating from the 1880s

Signal box superstructures were basically modular in nature.

Two Ratio Cabins could be combined on a brick base (Wills Scenic Materials) to provide an additional window bay and form the larger 24 lever Cabin used at Moate.

Similar cabins were also used on the WLWR including some on timber (Listowel, Abbeyfeale) and some on brick (Tubbercurry) bases

 

Ah I see. I must have misinterpreted that but of information 

Something like this ratio kit of a McKenzie and Holland signal box might be abit better 

[airfixfan]

The Railway Signalling Society book on Ireland is highly recommended 

[2996 Victor]

5 hours ago, Jb1911 said:

Ah I see. I must have misinterpreted that but of information 

Something like this ratio kit of a McKenzie and Holland signal box might be abit better 

I'm planning to use one of these as the basis for the M&H cabin on my project layout. Achill, I think, is a good example of a smaller cabin of this type. The ground level version seems to have the same superstructure as the full-height one.

The locking room windows seem to be much smaller on Irish cabins than on the Ratio model of Highley (Severn Valley Railway, btw).

As mentioned by airfixfan, the Signalling Record Society book is a mine of information.

Cheers,

Mark

[Jb1911]

The goods shed in moate is a big one. Seriously it’s massive compared to the rest of the station. Used by the golf club now but I can’t think of anything that would represent this building in oo gauge. 
 

 
 
you can clearly see it’s a unique building so I’d imagine I’ll have to scratch build it? Not having anything to go off is abit dodgy and might not be great in the long term. I was wondering if anyone has even an idea of something that may work for it? 
 

On an earlier point about signalling of course there is little representation of the midlands signalling in oo gauge. 
Don’t you love modelling in Ireland

[BSGSV]

On 16/4/2022 at 11:21 AM, Mayner said:

Moate Cabin looks like the original dating from the 1890s with modern replacement windows

Spot on. Moate is a Railway Signal Company (RSCo) design cabin, of a type widely used on the MGWR (and elsewhere in Ireland). The design differs from the McKenzine & Holland (McK&H) cabin (of the Ratio kit) in operating floor windows, gable vents, gable bargeboards and locking room windows, aside from lever frame type. The original operating floor windows of Moate are shown in this photograph https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4305633

"The Signal Box" book (https://www.amazon.com/Signal-Box-Pictorial-History-Designs/dp/0860932249) covers the UK signalling contractors designs, as well as basic terminology, technology and legislation affecting design. If they got contracts, the contractors generally used their then standard designs (or a variant) in Ireland. Unfortunately, the Irish companies own designs are not covered.

As Mayner says, the MGWR approach to Civil War damage was to either wholly replace the cabin (Mayner has illustrated Ballywillan, the end windows are replacements) which featured internal stairs, rear lever frames, concrete blocks construction to floor and, most often, RSCo. lever frames. It also appears that a similar design operating floor was used to replace the top of older cabins where the brick base and frame were re-usable. These tended to have external stairs. Multyfarnham is an example.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Jb1911 said:

The goods shed in moate is a big one. Seriously it’s massive compared to the rest of the station. Used by the golf club now but I can’t think of anything that would represent this building in oo gauge. 
 

 
 
you can clearly see it’s a unique building so I’d imagine I’ll have to scratch build it? Not having anything to go off is abit dodgy and might not be great in the long term. I was wondering if anyone has even an idea of something that may work for it? 
 

On an earlier point about signalling of course there is little representation of the midlands signalling in oo gauge. 
Don’t you love modelling in Ireland

Do you have any old photos of the goods shed from its hey day in the 1960s or 1970s? Perhaps from one of Jonathan's books? Old B&W photos would be a great help scratch building it. It was a great help to me doing Gort shed.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

If you wanted a small goods shed, the little red brick ones used on the MGWR at many locations would a suitable model and easy to make. They had a standard design though varying details. The ones at Attymon & Dunsandle spring to mind but there were loads more of the type. From memory they were usually about 18 feet X 12 feet or thereabouts.

[2996 Victor]

49 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If you wanted a small goods shed, the little red brick ones used on the MGWR at many locations would a suitable model and easy to make. They had a standard design though varying details. The ones at Attymon & Dunsandle spring to mind but there were loads more of the type. From memory they were usually about 18 feet X 12 feet or thereabouts.

Did the MGWR have a standard design goods shed that was larger than that?

Regards,

Mark

[Garfield]

2 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Did the MGWR have a standard design goods shed that was larger than that?

Regards,

Mark

There were larger sheds built from cut stone, not strictly standardised but there were many similarites between them. The sheds at Dromod and Multyfarnham, for example...

Dromod: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/30818013/dromod-railway-station-clooncolry-dromod-county-leitrim

Multyfarnham: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/15304024/railway-house-rathganny-multyfarnham-westmeath

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Did the MGWR have a standard design goods shed that was larger than that?

Regards,

Mark

More so it would be variations on a standard theme. I thought of another small one of a slightly different design Maam Cross, also Ballynahinch (Co Galway).

[2996 Victor]

3 minutes ago, Garfield said:

There were larger sheds built from cut stone, not strictly standardised but there were many similarites between them. The sheds at Dromod and Multyfarnham, for example...

Dromod: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/30818013/dromod-railway-station-clooncolry-dromod-county-leitrim

Multyfarnham: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/15304024/railway-house-rathganny-multyfarnham-westmeath

That's brilliant, thank you! The circular windows on the Dromod shed are intriguing: was that a feature found elsewhere?

Cheers,

Mark

[Garfield]

2 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

That's brilliant, thank you! The circular windows on the Dromod shed are intriguing: was that a feature found elsewhere?

Cheers,

Mark

No problem!
 

Yes, those windows were found elsewhere, and are still evident on the goods shed in Longford, which was a larger MGWR type: 

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.7238677,-7.7965482,3a,15y,260.16h,86.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUw00hAS_CLgu4dktQG57-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

That's brilliant, thank you! The circular windows on the Dromod shed are intriguing: was that a feature found elsewhere?

Cheers,

Mark

Yes. Semi-circular too, on quite a few goods sheds. Several on the Clifden line too.

[2996 Victor]

5 minutes ago, Garfield said:

No problem!
 

Yes, those windows were found elsewhere, and are still evident on the goods shed in Longford, which was a larger MGWR type: 

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.7238677,-7.7965482,3a,15y,260.16h,86.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUw00hAS_CLgu4dktQG57-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Brilliant, thank you! Now to find some plans....!

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes. Semi-circular too, on quite a few goods sheds. Several on the Clifden line too.

Excellent, thank you - a closer look at Rails through Connemara is called for!

Cheers,

Mat

[Jb1911]

There were a good few signals in moate. A couple on the Athlone side and even more on the Mullingar side. Now I’ve sourced a basis for my signals, a peco model, so I’ve that done. 
 

Theres a picture up of the inside of the signal box and I’ll attach it here incase it’s of use to anyone. It does show the workings of moates box very well. 
 

 

 

And then back onto the goods shed. I have a few images to go off and the building has had no major changes in its lifetime but no drawings or numbers which isn’t ideal. You would wonder why there was no standard design at the time. Anyone hardly has drawings of the shed? And while I’m at it has anyone any drawings of the water tower. That’s what I’ll have to tackle next 

4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If you wanted a small goods shed, the little red brick ones used on the MGWR at many locations would a suitable model and easy to make. They had a standard design though varying details. The ones at Attymon & Dunsandle spring to mind but there were loads more of the type. From memory they were usually about 18 feet X 12 feet or thereabouts.

Thanks jhb. I know the type of shed your on about and I don’t think it’s entirely accurate for Moate 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Jb1911

[Garfield]

17 minutes ago, Jb1911 said:

There were 4 signals in moate. Two on the Athlone side and 2 on the Mullingar side. Now I’ve sourced a basis for my signals, a peco model, so I’ve that done. 
 

Theres a picture up of the inside of the signal box and I’ll attach it here incase it’s of use to anyone. It does show the workings of moates box very well. 
 

 

 

And then back onto the goods shed. I have a few images to go off and the building has had no major changes in its lifetime but no drawings or numbers which isn’t ideal. You would wonder why there was no standard design at the time. Anyone hardly has drawings of the shed? And while I’m at it has anyone any drawings of the water tower. That’s what I’ll have to tackle next 

Thanks jhb. I know the type of shed your on about and I don’t think it’s entirely accurate for Moate 

I just happen to have this in my collection - from later CIE years so it doesn't include the turnouts for the shed or the cattle bank, but may be of use for the arrangement of signals:

 

I walk by the goods shed in Moate a few times a week and I keep meaning to measure it for my own purposes, but haven't got around to doing it yet.

[Jb1911]

3 minutes ago, Garfield said:

I just happen to have this in my collection - from later CIE years so it doesn't include the turnouts for the shed or the cattle bank, but may be of use for the arrangement of signals:

 

I walk by the goods shed in Moate a few times a week and I keep meaning to measure it for my own purposes, but haven't got around to doing it yet.

That’s fantastic mate . 
 

That’s just what I needed. Thanks  

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Did the MGWR have a standard design goods shed that was larger than that?

Regards,

Mark

Not strictly speaking the MGWR engaged firms of Architects and Engineers to design the buildings and structures on its Main Line and Sligo/Cavan Branches, its likely that the railway would have set out its requirements in terms of floor area and office/station accommodation. The same principal would have applied to lines built by worked companies like Loughrea, Ballinrobe and the Western Extensions, the MGWR seems to have developed its own standard designs for (brick) platform shelters and small goods sheds (Attymon) during the late 1890s early 1900s.

The MGWR engaged different firms of Architects to design the buildings on the Dublin-Galway (G.W. Hermes) and Mullingar-Sligo-Cavan Lines (George Wilkinson).

There was a lot more variation in design between station buildings on the Galway Line and Sligo/Cavan Branches. The Main Line was completed between 1847 & 51 and Sligo/Cavan between 1855 and 62, in the early days the company may have been more open to outside pressure than 10 years later. The Trench family at Garbally Park and Woodlawn House no doubt had an influence on Ballinasloe and Woodlawn Gothic station building and Goods Shed design

Wilkinson was also engaged by the Dublin, Wicklow and Western (Harcourt St-Enniscorthy) and Great Southern and Western (Clara-Athlone and Nenagh, there is a stong "family" likeness between Wilkinson's station buildings and goods shed built for all three railway companies, including semi and circular good shed windows. 

Station buildings and goods sheds at stations like Athboy, Ballinrobe, Loughrea and Kingscourt are likely to have been designed locally as oppose to a detail design prepared by the MGWR.

[2996 Victor]

Many thanks John @Mayner, that's excellent info: the trick then is not to mix up the house "styles" of the different architects/contractors.

Best wishes,

Mark

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Many thanks John @Mayner, that's excellent info: the trick then is not to mix up the house "styles" of the different architects/contractors.

Best wishes,

Mark

The other point to consider is that there was no longer a need for impressive architecture (to demonstrate the railway was a good investment) once the MGWR completed its trunk routes by the 1860s, the company preferred to sit back and let local companies or the Government take on the risk of building branch lines and secondary routes. Apart from the Great Northern and Western (Athlone-Westport & Ballina) the majority of these companies struggled to raise capital and cover their operating expenses, buildings tended to be plain in nature built from local materials generally coursed random stonework with brick rather than stone quoins and detailing used in earlier construction.

Ballywillan Cavan Branch, stone quoins and detailing.

 

 

Athboy brick quoins and detailing window and door openings, brick chimneys.

Its likely that Mount Bellew station buildings would have been close in scale to Athboy, Kingscourt or Killeshandra as they were similar sized towns in the late 1800s, Loughrea and Ballinrobe are considerably larger towns.

 

 

 

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

The other point to consider is that there was no longer a need for impressive architecture (to demonstrate the railway was a good investment) once the MGWR completed its trunk routes by the 1860s, the company preferred to sit back and let local companies or the Government take on the risk of building branch lines and secondary routes. Apart from the Great Northern and Western (Athlone-Westport & Ballina) the majority of these companies struggled to raise capital and cover their operating expenses, buildings tended to be plain in nature built from local materials generally coursed random stonework with brick rather than stone quoins and detailing used in earlier construction.

Ballywillan Cavan Branch, stone quoins and detailing.

 

Athboy brick quoins and detailing window and door openings, brick chimneys.

Its likely that Mount Bellew station buildings would have been close in scale to Athboy, Kingscourt or Killeshandra as they were similar sized towns in the late 1800s, Loughrea and Ballinrobe are considerably larger towns.

 

Excellent point, John, and one I hadn't considered. Oddly enough, I'd been looking at Ballywillan station buildings earlier on, thinking that the goods shed was of a reasonable size suitable for Mount Bellew and incorporating the distinctive Wilkinson circular and semi-circular windows. I suppose its a bit unlikely that he would have done the designs for a minor company building a branch line, though.

[jhb171achill]

And then there were so many stations on main lines but at very small places en route. They also often had small stations. No reason why a building in such a place couldn’t be copied as a terminus building on a layout…..

[Jb1911]

Picture showing the signal boxes older windows which will he what I model. 
 

Taken in 1977 

[Mayner]

21 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Excellent point, John, and one I hadn't considered. Oddly enough, I'd been looking at Ballywillan station buildings earlier on, thinking that the goods shed was of a reasonable size suitable for Mount Bellew and incorporating the distinctive Wilkinson circular and semi-circular windows. I suppose its a bit unlikely that he would have done the designs for a minor company building a branch line, though.

 I am probably as obsessed about authentic/plausible  buildings and structures as JHB is about correct liveries. Wilkinson seems to have operated a major architectural practice from the mid 1830s to the mid 1880s primarily Government work designing Workhouses and Mental Asylums, his railway work seems to have dried up in (as money dried up?) the mid 1860s.

The DWWR seems to have run out of money after reaching Enniscorthy in 1863 and did not complete its line to Wexford for another 11 years, Wexford Station is quite humble in nature compared with stations North of Enniscorthy, the DWWR turning to corrugated iron buildings on its New Ross Extension and smaller main line stations.. GNWR (Mayo Line) buildings became increasingly spartan (to keep costs down) as the line progressed westwards from Castlerea to Westport with plain rectangular stone station buildings (originally without canopies), wagons were loaded/loaded outside the goods sheds at Ballyhaunis and Claremorris unlike other major stations on the Mayo Road

The most likely scenarios for a railway to Mountbellew are:

1. A locally financed scheme built in the 1860s or 70s taken over by the Midland when the local company ran out of money before or shortly after completion in a similar manner to the Ballaghadereen. One possible scenario is that the line was originally planned as a part of a line from Ballinasloe to Tuam and Ballinrobe to tap traffic from Joyce Country and Mayo rather than a simple dead end branch. It was originally planned to extend the Ballaghdereen line to connect with the Mayo Line at Castlerea to tap into cattle traffic from the plains of Galway and Roscommon. Spartan possibly Gothic buildings like Ballaghadereen, Ballymoe, Donamon (Mayo Line) or plain rectangular buildings (Clastlerea-Westport)

2. A Baronially Guaranteed Light Railway to Mountbellew built in the 1880s/90s similar in character to the Loughrea, Ballinrobe, Branches but with the station buildings and goods shed on a smaller scale.

Its possible the Midland might have adapted the "English Cottage" style of architecture used on the Western Extensions if the line was built in the mid-late 1890s, the MGWR used this style of architecture at Ballyvary Station on the Ballina Branch http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway Stations B/Ballyvary/IrishRailwayStations.html#Ballyvary_20040704_0003_CC.jpg

A Baronial Guaranteed scheme would have had a greater chance of success than an 1860s/70s scheme as the company shareholders had a guaranteed return on capital and the County Council could take over and work the line if the project failed like to Tralee and Dingle and Schull and Skibbereen

In the end anything is possible/dooable!

[2996 Victor]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

 I am probably as obsessed about authentic/plausible  buildings and structures as JHB is about correct liveries. Wilkinson seems to have operated a major architectural practice from the mid 1830s to the mid 1880s primarily Government work designing Workhouses and Mental Asylums, his railway work seems to have dried up in (as money dried up?) the mid 1860s.

Hi John,

Many thanks for your post - lots of great info to digest there. I suppose I'm of much the same frame of mind: plausibility backed up as far as possible with the correct style of buildings for the railway company and the locality.

The two scenarios you've put forward are both interesting and each have their own merits. I had been thinking along the lines of a Baronial light railway and that's the way I'll probably go - I need to re-read Padraig O'Cuimin's book! I'm keen to make sure that the railway structures are in the correct MGWR "house colours".

Many thanks again, it's really appreciated.

Best regards,
Mark

 

[Jb1911]

Was there many bogie wagons used in Ireland? I know a few, more specifically was there any used on the MGWR, other then the Bretland of course. I’ve read there were single bolster timber wagons aswell. Was wondering if anyone had more information on these? 
 

Cheers

[jhb171achill]

22 minutes ago, Jb1911 said:

Was there many bogie wagons used in Ireland? I know a few, more specifically was there any used on the MGWR, other then the Bretland of course. I’ve read there were single bolster timber wagons aswell. Was wondering if anyone had more information on these? 
 

Cheers

Until the late 1960s and the advent of fitted trains in the 70s, very few indeed and most were one-offs, or maybe 2 or 3 of a kind. The standard Irish wagons in loose coupled days were all four-wheeled - there were equally few six-wheeled.

Offhand, the only examples I can think of were a small handful of specialised flat wagons. Can't think of a single example of a van on any line other than the GNR's grain vans, of which one is preserved at Whitehead.

Edited April 21, 2022 by jhb171achill

[Northroader]

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/52/504-guinness-grain-van

I fancy these wouldn’t stray off the GNR, ( mind, they’d have to get to the brewery over the GSWR ) but it’s an interesting prototype.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Northroader

[Galteemore]

And I 

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/52/504-guinness-grain-van

I fancy these wouldn’t stray off the GNR, ( mind, they’d have to get to the brewery over the GSWR ) but it’s an interesting prototype.

And a card kit available from Alphagraphix, IIRC - the bogies certainly are, as w/m castings.

[jhb171achill]

55 minutes ago, Northroader said:

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/52/504-guinness-grain-van

I fancy these wouldn’t stray off the GNR, ( mind, they’d have to get to the brewery over the GSWR ) but it’s an interesting prototype.

Correct - and if they ever DID stray, it would an extremely rare “one-off”.